[SVPPB]

Boston court upholds conscientious objectors status

Now if only the rest of the docs in the military would pull their heads out, maybe the war would end...

 

[sanjuro]

That's cool... just pay back the Army.

 

[X3pilot]

A federal appeals court ruled yesterday in favor of an anesthesiologist who asked to be discharged from the US Army as a conscientious objector after the military paid $184,000 for her to attend Tufts University School of Medicine.

Make her pay it back..

When Hanna enlisted in 1997, she committed to serve four years of active duty and another four in the Reserve in exchange for an Army-paid scholarship for her medical training. But just before Christmas 2005, as she neared the end of her anesthesiology residency at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, Hanna notified the Army that she had rekindled her faith in God and that her religious beliefs were "incompatible with military service."

Great, another chicken sh!t tax money thief blaming God for a total lack of guts or sense.

Killing will go on with out Docs, what's sad is that the court upheld it and SVBPP, I know how personal an issue this is for you, but it's not right.

 

[SVPPB]

She said she's willing to pay it all back, which is more then reasonable in my mind. She decided that she was going to get with Jeebus, and that killing folk, regardless of what some ass hat from Texas tells her was wrong. I give her points for having the balls that the majority of the medical community seem to have lost in the process of indoctrination.

X3: you're right, this is a very personal issue for me. However, taking that out of the math, think about it like this... If all of the docs, who we can reasonably say are the most educated folk in the AS, decided to say "Take this job and shove it, Allah told me not to work here no more" and walked off the gig, America would really have to take stock in this entire debacle in the sand.

I think what she did took massive Cojones, and I applaud her for that.

 

[firemandivi]

I don't care if she pays it back (Which she should)
But does this mean that if your in the military and don't want to fight than you don't have to? Does each solider has the option of saying which war or battle they want to fight in? If so every parent in the military is would be a conscientious objector.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Wow. Nothing like "supporting the troops" eh? F*ck the lack of qualified medical personnel. What would jesus do? Hell no he wouldnt help the wounded, he'd tuck his weak ass tail and run.

 

[JohnE]

Allah told some other a$$hats to fly planes into the WTC, and oppress womens rights and all kinds of other idiocy. Jesus told GWB he was right.
X3 is right. The killing will continue, as long as it pays...

 

[X3pilot]

Forget the fighting and war and loyalty and honor as a person that she flipped off for a second...

SV..you say if all the military docs say take this job and basically quit, they can't do that due to their hypocratic oath, right?

What about the time shattering medical advances that come from battlefield surgical and medical trails and test and techniques??

If one objects to the war, that's fine and it is a person's right to object, protest, etc. But do not steal government money and worse, she just created a huge personnel gap, that now someone new has to be trained to take whatever billet she would fill, possibly puttting some Soilder, Sailor, Marine or Airmen's life in jepordy..which in that case puts her no better than the position she is objecting to..she just became a senseless killer....

 

[BurlyShirley]

I just love how BS thinks his opinion is the only valid one. He all ready go dish it out, but say one even slightly negative thing about the military and he gets all riled up. Cry us another river there, Meg.

What's that bong breath? I have plenty of negative things to say about the military of my own, so you're totally off base...probably because you're stoned....again....as usual. But a doctor claiming christ as a reason to not fulfill a commitment to help the wounded? Lame, sad and wrong.

 

[Nick]

..she just became a senseless killer....

you can't believe that, can you?

 

[X3pilot]

Only in the remote sense of the butterfly effect theory...she quits, leads to lack of trained personnel in a hospital in ________ theater, causalty lieing in triage waiting on an anestheseologist (sp) to put him under, they're short on staff, he's waiting too long, possibly dies due to injuries...

Dramatic, I know, but it's a point....

I think she's more of a coward than a killer....

 

[SVPPB]

X: I know you did your time in, and I have done mine. I did mine for profit, you did yours for god and country.

However, we're different then most folk, and absolutely different then 90% of the Doctor (not corps) community. They take a different oath then you and I.

Also, you have to concede that the recruiters might have sung her the song of "no combat, no combat theaters" when they enticed her into the deal. I know they did this with my wife, otherwise I would have never gone for the deal.

Mind you, this was an ignorant decision. The military is the "let's go new places and kill folk" glee club, and we should have known better.

 

[firemandivi]

The court's majority opinion cited testimony from priests, superior officers, and an Army investigator assigned to the case, who all concluded that Hanna, a devout Coptic Orthodox Christian, "sincerely opposed participation in war because of her religious beliefs."

I guess she didn't find religion until war was on the horizon, because why would she join the military if she didn't believe in killing? couldn't be because of the $184k could it?

 

[SVPPB]

Medical school changes folk.
Its like combat, with your brain.
She evolved.
She said she would pay it all back.
She beat the system, good for her.

 

[BurlyShirley]

No, I am not off base... You are always prepared to insult people saying that they should have a thicker skin. I just find it amusing that when it comes to people criticizing the military you get all upset and bare your own thin skin. Either that or you seem to feel that you alone have the right to criticize the military.

I never made any comment on the doctor situation, or your own feelings or opinions towards the military.

And nah... not stoned. At work. I don't smoke till after work.

No, you are off base, and you're probably too stoned to see it. No one even criticized the military in this thread, people are criticizing one person who decided to opt out for what they feel are unsound reasons. And you then come after me, personally, as usual since you dont have a point to make.

 

[sanjuro]

I just love how BS thinks his opinion is the only valid one. He all ready go dish it out, but say one even slightly negative thing about the military and he gets all riled up. Cry us another river there, Meg.

BS is not criticizing us. He might think we are pvssies for not serving in the military like he did but he has never said it.

This doctor signed up to serve in the military and after completing medicial school (which, btw, avoiding all the bills while in school is also a huge financial benefit) decides that the military is not for her, you have to wonder.

 

[Westy]

Sign a contract and welch on it and we will taunt you on the intarweb.

 

[firemandivi]

BS asked what Jesus would do, from what I know Jesus didn't have much skill http://www.ejb.com/video/2869/Family_guy_jesus_spoof.html

 

[X3pilot]

SV: I'm not attacking you, just so you know..I'm mad at the "doctor"

I served not so much for "God and Country" but because 25 years ago, I wanted a way out of working in textile mills living in a trailer behind my parents (southern recruiters dream, huh?) As it turned out, the reason I stayed was I was good at what I did (aircraft maintenance and leadership) and the money was good. So we're not that much different. I just don't have a bitter filter on, like you do and you have one on with good reason due to some of the crap you've had to endure due to the Navy.

She didn't "evolve", she flat chickened out and instead of having at least a shred of honor, like she should have, she hid behind God..

 

[LordOpie]

Is she hot?

 

[Nick]

this may not be directly related to the topic, but from my understanding of how the military's stop-loss policy has effected the lives of soliders that HAVE met their obligations, I'd think there are many more soldiers looking for a real way out.

 

[SVPPB]

X3: I know you're not, wouldn't ever expect that from you. You know your ****, and I respect that.

Wait, I can hide behind god? He better be Buddah, because Jeebus wouldn't have the girth to hide my fat ass.

 

[I Are Baboon]

She should get a free pass by virtue of the fact that she's probably a Red Sox fan, being from Somerville and all. Send a Yankee fan instead.

 

[X3pilot]

X3: I know you're not, wouldn't ever expect that from you. You know your ****, and I respect that.

Wait, I can hide behind god? He better be Buddah, because Jeebus wouldn't have the girth to hide my fat ass.

 

[dropsdon'tlikem]

Wow. Nothing like "supporting the troops" eh? F*ck the lack of qualified medical personnel. What would jesus do? Hell no he wouldnt help the wounded, he'd tuck his weak ass tail and run.

Patching up but one cadre of killing machines usually means you've picked sides. Hence, the C.O. status

 

[Silver]

There shoudn't be CO status in a volunteer army...

 

[loco-gringo]

<snip>regardless of what some ass hat from Texas tells her was wrong.

He is NOT FROM Texas. lthumbsdown:

 

[loco-gringo]

Medical school changes folk.
Its like combat, with your brain.
She evolved.
She said she would pay it all back.
She beat the system, good for her.

Bull sh*t. Doctors are no better, or smarter than any other intelligent person. They have more perseverance, and study more, but it's really no different than any other specialty. You can tell me I'm wrong, but I will continue to respectfully disagree.

 

[sanjuro]

She should get a free pass by virtue of the fact that she's probably a Red Sox fan, being from Somerville and all. Send a Yankee fan instead.

God doesn't care when a Red Sox fan dies.

 

[ArmyOrtho]

I might be able to shed a bit of light on this, if anyone's interested.

I'm currently a 4th year resident in Orthopaedic Surgery at William Beaumont Army Medical Center in El Paso, Texas and am looking forward to fulfilling my military obligation with the US Army upon completion of my medical training.

I accepted the scholarship to medical school after having served 4 years as an infantry officer in Germany. My first day of class was August 6th, 2001. Things changed quite a bit a month later when a bunch of people thought it would be a good idea to fly some airliners into buildings.

Dr. Hanna would have been in my year group. So, theoretically, she would have joined up when the army was at a relative time of peace, and found herself in a wartime army after only a month of school.

This in no way excuses her from her obligation. Not only did she continue to take the government's money to attend an incredibly expensive medical school, she took the government's money when she accepted her assignment to train for anesthesiology for 4 more years. That's 8 continued years of service during which time she was educated for FREE while her colleagues were incurring $200,000 of debt to pay for school. She has none, because of your tax dollars.

She decided within months of her graduation from residency and pending deployment overseas that she is now an objector and wants to be relieved from her military obligations, that she's happily incurred for the past 8 years.

I cannot even begin to say if she is sincere in her objections or is simply using this as a means of getting out of a 6 month deployment, or 4 years of service at 1/5th the paycheck she would be making as a civilian. But, I can tell you that if you gave that option to any of the surgeons in the military, a large majority of them would gladly leave now and pay back the money that was spent on them in medical school.

Think of it this way. The army spent a bit over $50,000 to put me through medical school (UT-Houston). Tufts, where this girl went, was $186,000 for 4 years. She didn't have to take out loans to cover that debt. You all paid her way with your tax dollars. Now, because of the training you provided her, she was supposed to pay it all back with her service in the military. An anesthesiologist in the military makes about $115,000 a year. A civilian can EASILY make 4 times that. OF COURSE she's willing to leave and pay back that money, she'll make it all up in 6 months of work. 6 months of cash to pay back an obligation instead of making 1/4 the salary she could make for 4 years? Easy decision. You can't claim someone ISN'T an objector, either. It's a get-out-of-jail free card that can be used by those of us that cannot follow through on a promise.

She was not an 18 year old private that changed her mind during basic training when she realized that the army wasn't at all what she thought. This was an extremely well educated person who knew exactly what she was doing and manipulated the American Tax Payer into footing the bill for her education and denying the american service members the trained medical personnel they need to complete the mission.

She is a disgrace to her country and her profession. Things like this have a way of getting around, though. I think she'll find that this will stay with her wherever she goes. Who knows, maybe in her civilian practice, she'll get to see a wounded american service member home on leave and realize how petty she is.

She made a promise and broke it. It's as plain as that. Simply paying the money back isn't the answer. The government is out $186,000, the Army is out an Anesthesiologist, and the Medical Profession is out alot of its integrity.

It's a sad day to be a doc in the army.

 

[ArmyOrtho]

By the way, this lawsuit was singled out by CNN as the most disturbing of the year, in that she got away with everything.

 

[dante]

Think of it this way. The army spent a bit over $50,000 to put me through medical school (UT-Houston). Tufts, where this girl went, was $186,000 for 4 years. She didn't have to take out loans to cover that debt. You all paid her way with your tax dollars. Now, because of the training you provided her, she was supposed to pay it all back with her service in the military. An anesthesiologist in the military makes about $115,000 a year. A civilian can EASILY make 4 times that. OF COURSE she's willing to leave and pay back that money, she'll make it all up in 6 months of work.

Bullsh!t. Back in 1997 student loans were around 4% (maybe slightly higher?), and student loans are deferred or subsidized while you're in school. So if she'd taken out student loans, she'd be in almost the exact same position she's in now, owing $186,000, and possibly more now since she promised to pay it all back plus interest. *Maybe* she got away with scamming the army out of living expenses (nothing to sneeze at), but don't know as the article didn't mention it. If she offered to pay it back, plus interest, accept it and move on...

Now if she had said she was gay 2 weeks after her graduation, I'd laugh my ass off and congratulate her for scamming the system. Being a conscientious objector is hard to prove, but if the military is going to give you such an easy out (no pun intended) by automatically discharging you for being gay, you might as well use it.

 

[JohnE]

Thats it Dante, tell thesubject matter expert that he doesnt knowwhat he is talking about, in true internet fashion! What is your profession, btw?

Welcome Doc...my knee hurts at 90 degrees flexion with my foot in nuetral alignment...whaddaya think?

 

[skinny mike]

blah blah blah

you might have seemed less "preachy" if you were more active in other portions of this forum and if you didn't bump a year old thread...

 

[drkenan]

Holy dead thread revival. Army Ortho sounds like he knows his sh1t though.

 

[DirtMcGirk]

Sitting where I am with all of this, having a wife over there, the whole nine yards, I have to say the following:

There is a much higher price for the families then there is for those who serve a lot of the time. You get the good, we carry the bad. I think she made this call for her family, and I think it was the right one.

 

[ArmyOrtho]

Point taken, from all of you.

Thread revival happened because the very first I heard of this was today when on CNN, they had a recap of the worst lawsuits of the year, and this one won unanimously.

I googled her name and saw this thread, got a kick out of some of your, uh..opinions. Thought I'd contribute. Never heard of this forum until today.

This is government service we're taking about. There will always be loopholes. Such is the nature of the beast when dealing with government employees. Soldiers included. I'm not saying she did anything illegal. We have lawyers that look into things like that. I'm saying she did something unethical, but I am fully aware of the counter-argument that forcing her to participate in a military that she now objects to is unethical as well.

Re: student loans. I consolidated mine at 2.1%. It's not about that. I am fully aware they are deferred. What you have absolutely no clue about, yet seem fit to lecture, it the salary of a military resident versus civilian.

She got med school paid for. So, no money out of pocket, but you have a valid point that if she had taken the loans, she would still have no money out of pocket in that they are deferred until after graduation (interest still accrues, however, and before I consolidated, the rates were over 6%...of $186,000...) In accepting a residency in the military for Anesthesia, she was commissioned as a captain in the United States Army and paid as such. After her internship, she began to draw professional pay as a medical officer. Her total benefits, including a huge housing allowance for residency is in excess of $70,000 a year. Of YOUR tax dollars. If she hadn't taken the military scholarship and thereby been offered a military residency, she would be making the civilian salary for an anesthesia resident. $35,000 - $42,000 per year, with NO housing allowance (refuted below). And, she'd have to start paying back her loans upon graduation.

So, apologies to all for sounding preachy. Was not my intent, only to give an opinion of someone in her shoes who chose to do the right thing and not find the easy way out simply to make more money and live easier when I promised to serve my country to protect and defend against all enemies, despite the popularity of the war or location of the fight.

Happy to respond to anyone's concerns about my post...

 

[ArmyOrtho]

Welcome Doc...my knee hurts at 90 degrees flexion with my foot in nuetral alignment...whaddaya think?

Could be a million things. You should see a doctor

 

[sanjuro]

I
Think of it this way. The army spent a bit over $50,000 to put me through medical school (UT-Houston). Tufts, where this girl went, was $186,000 for 4 years. She didn't have to take out loans to cover that debt. You all paid her way with your tax dollars. Now, because of the training you provided her, she was supposed to pay it all back with her service in the military. An anesthesiologist in the military makes about $115,000 a year. A civilian can EASILY make 4 times that. OF COURSE she's willing to leave and pay back that money, she'll make it all up in 6 months of work. 6 months of cash to pay back an obligation instead of making 1/4 the salary she could make for 4 years? Easy decision. You can't claim someone ISN'T an objector, either. It's a get-out-of-jail free card that can be used by those of us that cannot follow through on a promise.

She was not an 18 year old private that changed her mind during basic training when she realized that the army wasn't at all what she thought. This was an extremely well educated person who knew exactly what she was doing and manipulated the American Tax Payer into footing the bill for her education and denying the american service members the trained medical personnel they need to complete the mission.

Thanks for your opinion. I agree with most of it.

 

[Toshi]

After her internship, she began to draw professional pay as a medical officer. Her total benefits, including a huge housing allowance for residency is in excess of $70,000 a year. Of YOUR tax dollars. If she hadn't taken the military scholarship and thereby been offered a military residency, she would be making the civilian salary for an anesthesia resident. $35,000 - $42,000 per year, with NO housing allowance. AND she'd have to start paying back her loans upon graduation

and to this i call bull****. PGY-1 salaries are $42-50k. i make $45k as a PGY-1 in a moderate to high priced market, and will make about the same next year ALONG with your coveted housing allowance. and all my loans are and will remain deferred until i finish residency as i'd be technically under the poverty line if i were paying them off on a regular schedule.

you have a point about her gaming the system but exaggerating the facts doesn't help your limited credibility.