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DS Vs. 4x

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by downhiller2010, Feb 5, 2008.

  1. downhiller2010

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    which do youlike better and why?

    I like ds comp. better because of the head to head competition and I think it showcases skills better. Its defiantly cooler to watch also.
     
    #1 -   Feb 5, 2008

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  2. ZHendo

    ZHendo Turbo Monkey

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    there's a bunch of people that like 4X, but i'm personally a bigger fan of DS. the reason is that a 4X course is basically a bmx track for mtbs and the courses really don't emphasize flow as much as they really emphasize pedaling ability. DS courses tend to be too tight to really sprint on, and you really see a riders skill come out with the low berms, tight jumps and rollers and occasional flat turns. it's just more challenging to ride as well.
     
    #2 -   Feb 5, 2008
  3. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    BMX already exists.

    Slalom for the mountains.


    I'd be all for more 'mountain bike' style 4x courses though. I think they call it downhill mania:D
     
    #3 -   Feb 5, 2008
  4. bpatterson6

    bpatterson6 Turbo Monkey

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    Have you ever been to Angel Fire and seen their 4x Course?

    DS is cool, no doubt. I like them both!

    Yeti/RPM's Keith Darner has a Place in Nathrop, Co that is sick.
    He has 2 Courses for 4x and a DS Course. ALL ARE SICK.

    Usually the DS Course at Keystone is fun too! Cawley and the guys from the MSC do a great job of building good courses.

    Word on the street is that Steve Wentz, Tim Sharp and crew want to build a sick 4x course at Sol Vista, Co!
     
    #4 -   Feb 5, 2008
  5. downhiller2010

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    i could prbly like 4x more if it was somehow more mountain bike ish
     
    #5 -   Feb 5, 2008
  6. ATOMICFIREBALL

    ATOMICFIREBALL DISARMED IN A BATTLE OF WITS

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    I like Dual Slalom better. DS there is no contact or crashing because of another riders error.
     
    #6 -   Feb 5, 2008
  7. jonnynails

    jonnynails Monkey

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    I'm down for DS versus MX. MX just reminds me too much of BMX or even moto to a lesser extreme. At least slalom is our two wheeled thing.
     
    #7 -   Feb 5, 2008
  8. ZHendo

    ZHendo Turbo Monkey

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    nope, i wish, haha. i will say, there are quite a few 4X courses that look pretty fun, and the whistler 4X, pardon, "biker cross" course is insanely fun. there was one course, may have been fort william or something, but it was in quite a few movies and it had the rock drop to a sharp left turn. that looked pretty fun too, it was almost like a mini A line where you have to dodge other riders. slalom is still more fun imo.
     
    #8 -   Feb 6, 2008
  9. ArthurDH

    ArthurDH Monkey

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    yeah, vigo was probably the best 4X track of this year's world cups... and the most different one from your "standard" 4X track
    this says it all
     
    #9 -   Feb 6, 2008
  10. Haplipe

    Haplipe Monkey

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    i prefer 4x because there is usually bigger jumps. Yea DS has the head to head racing but being able to control your riders behind is another aspect of racing that you have to learn, and theres nothing better than throwing elbows in a big pack of people and yea angle fire 4x is way too fun to give up. Hitting those doubles at the bottom with people a foot or two from you is intense.
     
  11. bikenweed

    bikenweed Turbo Monkey

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  12. thom9719

    thom9719 Turbo Monkey

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    4X would be sweet if they made it like the vigo course. 4x needs mountain elements.

    right now, slalom>4X

    Kyle,
     
  13. Tootrikky

    Tootrikky Monkey

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    You can win DS on Flats or Clips.

    It is very hard to win 4x on flats.

    The reasons that make the above true, say almost everything about why I think DS is a better format for Mountain Bike racing.
     
  14. dhmike

    dhmike Turbo Monkey

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    i have bmx roots so i have to go with 4x. but i love watching slalom racing.
     
  15. caballero

    caballero Monkey

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    definately 4CROSS !!

    it's a way bigger show for the spectators (especially for those that are not into this sport) and you need to have more different skills (not just pinning berms) ...

    slalom rocks !! but it's more like an evening-show or a sideevent not a real discipline !

    only riders who are too lazy to work and train for 4X want Slalom back ;)
     
  16. kOlsen

    kOlsen Monkey

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    I have bmx racing roots too, but I like slalom more than 4x. Slalom is more mountainbike. I think that the 4x world cup tracks looks aweful! They need to bring back slalom or change the 4x to something different and better. I like the tracks they used on Jeep king of the mountain or whatever it's called.
     
  17. stiksandstones

    stiksandstones Turbo Monkey

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    Well hell, there we go, he is a legend right?

    4x is better (for the spectator)-if there was funding for MTBing to make the tracks right AND if there were any spectators, But there is not either, so you are going to have to do slalom, because for the price of slalom poles, you can have a 'track' anywhere. 4X is dead-everyone is just going to have to say 'oh well, we tried' and move on.

    Case in point, 96' NORBA National in shanty creek michigan. Slalom was held on the grass slope lawn in front of the fancy restaurant. No jumps, just carver turns in the grass-it was awesome.
     
  18. OGRipper

    OGRipper Turbo Monkey

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    NORCAL is the hizzle
    Both are rad, why do we have to pick? 4X requires more strategy with passing, blocking, t-boning, etc., and if the course is right it's more fun for me to watch (jumps, passing, etc.) But depending on the course 4X (like BMX) can be over at the first turn, which is lame. DS is more about technical riding skill and less strategy, and regardless of the course you don't have to take the snap to take the win.
     
  19. 1soulrider

    1soulrider Monkey

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    With a proper track (ie Anglefire) 4X can have good racing and provide entertainment for the fans.
    The fact is most of the tracks suck mainly because so little effort is put into construction.
    A poorly built DS track provides better racing than a weak 4X track.
    Personally I like racing dual better.
     
  20. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    I bet if Jeep King of The Mountain decided to have 4X, or better yet, the X Games had "biker cross", you would see better and better riders do 4X because that's where the money and publicity (which turns into money) are.

    However, I can see how DS is the purist sport and 4X is for X Games mentalities, and considering no one is throwing money at mountain biking, we might as well pull the plug on 4X.
     
  21. ChrisKring

    ChrisKring Turbo Monkey

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    Currently, mountain biking is primarly a participant sport. For most participants, a real 4X course is intimidating. Where as a DS course is easier to try out. There are no fans at most races anymore. Now if you could run a grass DS in an urban park during a festival, I think you could get a lot of fans.

    I like grass DS and I still have 2 pair of Front Spike tires ready to go in case someone runs one again.
     
  22. Metal Dude

    Metal Dude Turbo Monkey

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    DS rules, I like all kinds of racing and some 4x's don't suck - like 1 out of 100.
    I disagree with most all the 4x post because - How is 4x more spectator friendly? cause of wrecks - that's it.
    Spectators like crashes, racers don't!
    Who wants to watch a race that is over in the first turn? There is hardly any passing in 4x.
    DS is a race all the way down the course, one guy can lead off the start, the other come back and forth and then get passed again at the finish!Wow!
    4x takes skill to start, jump and block, that isn't using much mtb skills!
    4x doesn't take near the skill as DS-especially a "good" DS with jumps, small berms, off cambers, roots, ruts, etc.
    I think you gotta train more to be a better DS racer over 4x just need power and jumping skills - blah!
    DS is more related to DH skills, and fits into mountain biking better.
    4x courses take a really good design and effort to make a good course
    Most of the Norba National Courses were more like "remote control car courses"
    DS RULES - 4x has killed GATED RACING!
     
  23. FCLinder

    FCLinder Turbo Monkey

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    I have to agree with Chuck here!!!:clapping:
     
  24. Metal Dude

    Metal Dude Turbo Monkey

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    I agree totally! If 4x courses had Xgames type support and money to build a course right.
    Long enough, Big enough, to where it wasn't just Start - jump - block

    The last supercross bmx race at Woodward West should have been done on MTBikes.
    There were only a few Bmxers owning that course. The others were fighting to survive.
    However on Bigger Mountain bikes would have been able to compete.
     
  25. ChrisKring

    ChrisKring Turbo Monkey

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    That Woodward course was so big that only a few MTB racers could ride it. The jumps were Supercross sized with no option to roll some of them. It would be cool for an X-Games thing that I am sure they could round up 16 mtb racers willing to huck for cash but that will not grow or maintain the sport.
     
  26. stiksandstones

    stiksandstones Turbo Monkey

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    As for Jeep, Xgames, etc....
    The jeep races provide more prize money, more support (they pay expenses) than any other MTB event ever had, it has cbs/sunday/afternoon air times....has all these great things going for it. And yet if you ask the riders behind closed doors-they say the jeep races are usually the lamest thing they ever have done (in regards to the format, tracks). But they all go to them for cash and prizes, oh and get on TV which the sponsors love. The whole Jeep race debacle has been discussed in here at length, do a search.
    I think what I am trying to say is the Jeep races have done nothing to increase MTB awareness, get more sponsors for the sport, get more riders racing bikes, etc....

    again, my disclaimer
    I am old and clueless about bike racing.
     
  27. gemini2k

    gemini2k Turbo Monkey

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    Why not do DS with the big jumps that MTX is supposed to have? Best of both worlds?
     
  28. caballero

    caballero Monkey

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    4X rules, I like all kinds of racing and some 4x's don't suck - like 50 out of 100.
    I disagree with most all the DS post because - How is DS more spectator friendly? no overtaking, no contact, nothing, just 2 guys rolling down on their own course
    4X is a race all the way down the course, one guy can lead off the start, 3 others come back and forth and then get passed again at the finish!Wow!
    DS takes skill to ride corners,thats it, that isn't using much mtb skills!
    DS doesn't take near the skill as 4X-especially a "good" 4X with big jumps, berms, rhythm sections, off cambers, roots, etc.
    I think you gotta train more to be a better 4X racer over DS just need cornering skills
    4X is more related to DH skills, and fits into mountain biking better.
    4x courses take a really good design and effort to make a good course
    Most of the Norba National Courses were more like "remote control car courses"
    4x RULES - DS will kill GATED RACING!
     
  29. Metal Dude

    Metal Dude Turbo Monkey

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    TA-DAH!! That's where it was headed in 99-2000 then Mtx came along.

    Yeah Stics I don't think much of the Jeep race courses either, there are 4x with 2 racers, boring...

    I am saying that 4x isn't a suitable idea for the masses. It certainly fits the pro aspect better - X games ain't for ametuers or the faint hearted.
    The best 4x courses were the first year Norba did it when it was pro only. (Still didn't have any passing but, good jumps at least)
    The Mt. Snow course Carter built was fun and the Wisconsin Nat. was Supercross.

    My answer: Slalom with good jumps and a "Pro Section" with a huge jump or two. Everybody wins!
    BMX has so many answers in the way they do things that Mountain biking never thinks to refer to.
    I remember one Big Bear course that had a pro section, no one else caught on though.
    Man the late 90's were the days.... Thousands of half drunk fans screaming for their favorites on the slalom courses. Why didn't we see a good thing and hold on to it.
     
  30. stiksandstones

    stiksandstones Turbo Monkey

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    Mammoth 99' had some massive slalom jumps....well tables, some big bowl jumps, mammoth 2000 I think had a wicked massive slalom, both were awesome and memorable. So ya, slaloms with big jumps were rad in the past.
    But, same issue, big jumps require dirt.....dirt cost money.
     
  31. Metal Dude

    Metal Dude Turbo Monkey

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    I can tell you are from Europe! The statements you made are in the dreams of 4x in the states bro. There is hardlly ever any passing cause
    there is hardly ever any good courses that allow it.
    Good slalom ain't just cornering, that was in the 80's
    If I want to race my mountain bike on a bmx track I will just go race cruiser.
    The bmx tracks that 6yr. olds race on are way more progressive than 99% of the 4x tracks here.
    I look in the Mags and am jealous of the Gated scene there for sure. i can see how you have the opinion you have and respect it but, Slalom is still better.
    The best rider always wins, not the best T-bone idiot or the guy who advances cause everyone else crashed!!
     
  32. caballero

    caballero Monkey

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    thats not the same.. pedalling for like 1 min. sucks... although 4x is similiar with bmx its still down a hill :)

    - we also have ****ty tracks here but thats not a 4x problem...it would be the same with DS..
    - slalom rules and it would be cool to have some races all over the world but they should NOT replace 4X (especially not at WC)
     
  33. MDJ

    MDJ Monkey

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    It was awesome - but most of the young'ns would think that was the lamest course ever.

    Like a lot of DHers, I stopped racing DS when BMX skills became the determining factor in winning races - Sea otter being the exception.
     
  34. FrontRangeDH

    FrontRangeDH Monkey

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    When there is a proper 4X its awesome but there are only a few in the states. I dont like how most of the tracks are decided by the gate, there needs to be passing available and optional lines.

    With most American race budgets I like slalom better because the tracks tend to be better. I really like slalom because the fastest rider/most consistent fast rider tends to win. There are less variables, no rubbing of elbows or risk of being taken out from behind. Its a mountain bike type of race where as 4X is mini bmx, smaller packs/heats on groomed tracks, i think the courses need to be rougher and to separate it a bit from BMX
     
  35. Rudy

    Rudy Chimp

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    I personally don't see why it has to be 1 or the other. The UCI could have a downhill category and a "gated" category, encompassing both slalom and 4X. Some venues could have just 4X, some could have just Slalom and some could have both. This way, the best overall rider would have a shot at the title. Leave venues like Vigo, A.F. etc. who already have rad 4X's as they are, but at venues like Ste. Anne and Bromont where they build a new course each year build a slalom. This way, everyone gets the best of both worlds. The BMX guys might fall back in points to downhillers, and guys like Gee and Graves who have the gate, and bmx type skills in the slalom rounds, and the downhill only guys might have a bit more motivation to get back into the gated races.
    For me it depends on the day which type of racing I prefer. Some times I like 4X, and some time I like Slalom. I think this is the same way for the crowds. Remember the Norba finals at Snowmass 2 years ago? Snowmass has a great 4X, but it had an awesome slalom, and it was under the lights. There were so many spectators cheering, and loving it; probabally 3 times as many as the next night which was mountaincross.
    The combined 4X and slalom series is working well for MSC and Norba, so why not the UCI?
     
  36. ChrisKring

    ChrisKring Turbo Monkey

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    One last time, if 4x was so good for the sport, it would be mainstream by now. It's too expensive to build a quality course and most DH racers will not race it.

    Look at the tens of thousands of dollars snowshoe spent in 2005 for their 4x course. It would have been better finacially to hand each person entering the race a $100 bill and each spectator a $20 bill than to run it.

    A good 4 X course needs to be really long to encourage passing. Similar to the Downhill Domination (mania/whatever) that they ran at Big Bear in 2004. That makes for a non spectator friendly event. Slalom can be very entertaining right in front of the lodge. As Stik said, Shuss in 1996 or that place in PA in 1999. Sell some beer and food to the spectators while they sit in lawn chairs in front of the resort rather than having to be a mountain goat to even get to the course. The only exception to this was the Supercross (I mean 4x) at Wisconsin in 2002. To bad the course builder jacked up the hill so bad that the property owner said no more bikes ever on his property (he owns several ski areas in the midwest that are close to urban areas).

    Again, the only way 4X works is at a permanent location so that the promoter has a prayer of breaking even off the participant entries. 4x lovers, go build a course and report back. I did it and it cost me thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours of time. Maybe you can do it better.
     
  37. Metal Dude

    Metal Dude Turbo Monkey

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    Very good points! I agree - This thread was set up as vs. debate so I would take slalom any day.
    Doesn't mean I don't like MTX, My roots are in BMX but, I also rode MX, Enduro, XC, DH etc.
    I think that is the main reason I liked slalom so much more than BMX
    You would show up and courses could vary a good bit. Some have berms, some have jumps
    some have poles stuck in the grass. If they were all like that It would be boring to me.
    BMX is boring to me because no matter how many jump combinations you put together, they're all still straights of jumps then big wall berms.

    I like the mix of DS and 4x in a series for sure to not only mix up the feel of different type courses.
    But also the mix up of who's going to be in the running to win the race.
     
  38. Beast

    Beast Turbo Monkey

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    I want a ds with 4x size jumps. Step it up, dang it.
     
  39. FlipFantasia

    FlipFantasia Turbo Monkey

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    DS rules....
     
  40. FlipFantasia

    FlipFantasia Turbo Monkey

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    4x can be fun too though....