[Slater]

So I'm about to build up some wheels, and a buddy is building the exact same ones too.

Here's the setup:
2005 823's
Hope pro2's
DT 2.0/1.8
DT 16mm alloy nipples

DT spoke calc. comes out with 249/251 for the front. That is with the 3-4mm subtracted for the longer nipples.

My buddy just took all his parts to a local shop today for them to build up the wheels and they said the spokes are too short. I've searched and I've come up with people saying the DT calc. used to give lengths too long because the ERD they listed was too big. They've since fixed it. However I've found nothing saying that the DT calc was too short with the 823's.

What gives?

Do you in fact not need to subtract the 3-4mm off the spoke length for the longer nipples? Conceptually I'd think that you wouldn't need to subtract it, but I figured DT would know better than I, seeing how as they make the parts.

I know a lot of people run 823's and hope pro 2's so maybe someone knows the proper spoke length for this?

Thanks guys!

 

[SteezyWeezy]

at least they werent ti spokes

 

[big-ted]

I think you might be right. I originally planned to build my rear 150 pro 2 on an 823 with 14mm nipples, for which it suggested 255/256. It turned out my lbs couldn't get the 14s, so I ended up with 16s and 256 spokes both sides. It laced up beautifully with no excessive length in the nipples.

Someone else might better confirm though.

 

[sriracha]

funny you ask, cuz i just built up a wheel last night and was commenting on how spot-on the dt swiss spoke length calculator was...the spokes were perfect length, and i just used the #'s as shown, without any subtraction.
this was the wheelbuild: sun mtx rims, dt swiss tripple butted spokes and chris king front hub.

i don't know what to tell you about your build, other than maybe the 16mm nipples have something to do with it...normal nipples are 12mm. is it possible that the bike shop is not aware that you are using 16mm nipples?

but, from my experience, the dt swiss spoke calculator is right on.

 

[sriracha]

btw, when using the dt swiss spoke calculator, you can specify nipple length when imputing...and let the calculator figure it out, instead of subtracting the difference of nipple length from the spoke length.

 

[RD3]

You should not have subtracted the 3-4mm.

 

[Slater]

When I say I subtracted the 3-4mm I mean the DT calculator did it when I selected 16mm nipples.

Perhaps the guy at the bike shop is an idiot because I've always heard of the DT calculator being spot on (except for the afore mentioned ERD error).

 

[-dustin]

the DT calc was wrong for me 3 weeks ago. off by 8mm on each side. 2 days ago Bikealog was wrong. on the same wheel, the rims advertised ERD was wrong.

basically, the only way to get correct lengths every time is to get rim and hub dimensions yourself, then plug those dimensions into Spocalc.

what are the Pro IIs dimensions?

 

[SteezyWeezy]

what are the Pro IIs dimensions?

straight from the website:

flange diameter: awesomemm
hub center to flange center: gnarmm
hub spoke diameter: shredmm

 

[mattmatt86]

I had something similar happen when building a wheel at my shop for a customer. I was building a Rhyno lite on a saint hub and after getting all the trailing spokes on one side I realized they were way too long. The DT Swiss calculator said I needed something like 272mm but that ended up being too long by 8mm.

 

[Dogboy]

I've used it for years with no issues. It's usually the first place I go for spoke lengths. I always verify my ERD and hub dimensions as well to reduce the possibility of an issue due to the Spoke Calc having the wrong specs.

 

[WBC]

keep in mind that the 16mm spokes aren't necessarily (as in not) threaded from the top of the nipple. The threading is in the same spot as always, so build em up as you always would. If memory serves me correctly, 255-256 (L,R) is the right length for the front, as well as 256 (L,R) for the 150 rear. I haven't built a set of hope/823s in a few weeks, so I might be a little off, but I know those numbers are close enough for 823s to DT hubs and the hopes are at least very similar in their dimensions

 

[NJHCx4xLIFE]

keep in mind that the 16mm spokes aren't necessarily (as in not) threaded from the top of the nipple. The threading is in the same spot as always, so build em up as you always would. If memory serves me correctly, 255-256 (L,R) is the right length for the front, as well as 256 (L,R) for the 150 rear. I haven't built a set of hope/823s in a few weeks, so I might be a little off, but I know those numbers are close enough for 823s to DT hubs and the hopes are at least very similar in their dimensions

Not doubting you and your claim backs up the situation on these wheels too but... I called DT with the same exact question last week and they say that you do need to specify the 16mm nipples and they do affect spoke length. I was under the same impression you were about the 16mm nipples being threaded in the same spot as a regular nipple and not threaded to the end. The DT tech said otherwise but maybe they misunderstood me. This thread bothers me because I'm about to build the eact same wheelset and used the DT calc.

 

[BrooklynMachine]

We use the QBP calculator then double check with the HOPE calc just to make sure.
You need a QBP acct. to access theirs, but the HOPE one can be found here. They've served us pretty well.

 

[NJHCx4xLIFE]

Slater...

I just put your combo into the DTCalc again and it gave me 252/254 when I specified 16mm nipples.

 

[Slater]

Really?

when I choose 12mm/2.0 nipples it gives me 252/254. When I choose 16mm/2.0 it gives me 249/251.

I've seen posts on here that both say the nipples ARE different, and some that say they AREN'T. Maybe I'll go by the shop and pick up a 12mm nipple and check for myself.

I'm so confused.

WBC: can you please check for me and see if 255/256 is what you use to build up this combo?

So the 16mm nipples DEFINATELY have the threads in the same place as 12mm nipples? If so then hypothetically 252/254 should work?

I checked the Hope calc and it gives 252/254.

Thanks for all the help guys!!

 

[DirtyMike]

Why are you set on using the 16mm nipples anyways? Just curious.

 

[Slater]

I'm not. I was just under the impression that you had to use them on Mavic UST wheels so that the nipple has enough sticking out to turn with a spoke wrench. Setting a 16mm nipple in one of the cups it appears as if a 12mm nipple would have enough sticking out. I'm new to wheel building so I'm just doing what manufacturers/people suggest, hoping it will work out. That approach doesn't appear to be panning out so far. haha

 

[DirtyMike]

With 16mm Nipples I have teh DT swiss site showing 252,s and 254's

 

[DirtyMike]

I'm not. I was just under the impression that you had to use them on Mavic UST wheels so that the nipple has enough sticking out to turn with a spoke wrench. Setting a 16mm nipple in one of the cups it appears as if a 12mm nipple would have enough sticking out. I'm new to wheel building so I'm just doing what manufacturers/people suggest, hoping it will work out. That approach doesn't appear to be panning out so far. haha

Makes it alot easier, but not absolute. you are better off witht he 16mm, I just saw that on the site they were teh Tubeless, then i Knew.

 

[Slater]

The precise number says 252/254 when I do the calc. too. the bold number that is the "corrected" number for the 16mm nipples reads less. Do you get this too?

I bought 249's and 252's. Guess I need to send back the 249's and get 254's.

Weak sauce.

 

[DirtyMike]

When i Switched to the 12 mm nipple it gave me 254 and 256, looks like 252/254 is the way to go

 

[Slater]

Man, my computer must be smoking crack. I really can't fathom how mine is the only one messing up. weird.

 

[NJHCx4xLIFE]

Now I'm officially confused and hate ordering the wrong spoke length. Is the general consensus 252/254 for the front with 16mm nipples?

 

[NJHCx4xLIFE]

Just as another note QBP says 256/258 with 12mm nipples so take off the 4mm for the 16mm nipples (I know there are differing views on this but the DT tech said absolutly take 4mm off for the 16s) and we are back at 252/254.

 

[Sir_Crackien]

i have had it mess up on me more than once now. the past 4 wheels that i have built using the dt swiss. all of them had spoke that where about 1-2mm too long. it ended up working but that leave little room for future stretch and truing. i have found that ideal spoke lenght to be when the spokes end up about 1 thread from reaching the driver slot.

also i have had it wrong in the past as well. it seems o me that the bti one is the best going. they measure the ERD of the rims and the hubs. also just one other tid bit, they actually weight the product as it comes in to them so that weights are almost always dead on.

 

[Slater]

I forgot to tell you guys its 36 spoke. When I calculate it with 32 I get the same numbers you're getting.

 

[NJHCx4xLIFE]

I forgot to tell you guys its 36 spoke. When I calculate it with 32 I get the same numbers you're getting.

Haha. I think everyone is giving you info based on a 32 spoke wheel which accounts for the confusion however it still doesn't explain why DT is wrong. I guess you are going to go with the spoke lenght they recommend for 12mm nipples and not specify 16mm? Something leads me to believe you don't need to specify 16mm nipple with the 823 on the DT clac yet you do need to use them. I'm thinking of getting the spokes the say to use with the 12mm nipples but lacing with the 16s. I hate wheel building.

 

[DirtyMike]

Starting over then

 

[DirtyMike]

249 251 is what i come up with for corrected length

Hope site gives me 253 and 255, so with a 16 mm Nipple the DT site is correct at 249 and 251 Hope that helps more

 

[Mr Nug]

I've laced up 2 pairs of these rims - the old 05 versions and the new 07s. The ERD on the calc was off for th 07s. I think I measured them at 532 and the calc says that they're 538. That was about a 15 months ago. Unfortunately I can't remember what the 05s measured at.

I usually do all the measurements myself and then input the numbers into the calc. It means that you can be 100% sure that it's right. Of course that means you have to have the hub and rim in the first place but after lacing a wheel up (esp with the locking nuts on 823s!), I'm not willing to take the same risk again.

 

[NJHCx4xLIFE]

I've laced up 2 pairs of these rims - the old 05 versions and the new 07s. The ERD on the calc was off for th 07s. I think I measured them at 532 and the calc says that they're 538. That was about a 15 months ago. Unfortunately I can't remember what the 05s measured at.

I usually do all the measurements myself and then input the numbers into the calc. It means that you can be 100% sure that it's right. Of course that means you have to have the hub and rim in the first place but after lacing a wheel up (esp with the locking nuts on 823s!), I'm not willing to take the same risk again.

Hmmm another good point. I just ordered the rims so they would be the 07s I assume and DT lists the ERD as 532 for the 823s and doesn't give the option of model year. I think taking you advice is most likely the best and I'll wait until the rims come in to double check and measure myself. The hope measurements seem to be the same on every site so I trust them but the ERD might be another story.

when you entered your numbers in the calc did you specify 16mm nipples?

 

[Slater]

Well I guess that's what I'll do then. I'll get the spoke lengths for the 12mm's and use the 16mm nipples I already have.

Thanks guys!

 

[DirtyMike]

For future reference, I do suggest at least checking the measurements. I Always measure up my wheels myself, specially when it comes to ERD.

 

[Chaingangster]

How do you measure ERD on a mavic 823??

 

[manchvegasbulit]

Hello All,
I was told there had been some questions about the ERD for the EX823. I am one of the Customer Service reps for Mavic, and will assure you the ERD is 528 with the hollow eyelets, and the 0 offset.

cheers,
kyle