[SkaredShtles]

<snip>

I'm just a retro-grouch...

Naw. Retro grouches run thumb shifters.

Wish they made a nice 9 speed version of thumbies.

 

[OGRipper]

The dual control system works exponentially better with rapid rise as it is an intuitive system that works with the subconcious part of the brain-I'm not kidding-this is all Shimano research ad I have found it to be true myself under application. The shifting is down for harder and up for easier. When you change the rear derailleur to regular it screws the whole system and does not work near as well.
I have also found that when you need to shift really quickly under torque you can with out "popping" your chain like with sram or regular shifting. A huge advantage to those of us who like to climb technical trails.
Dual control however is horrible for gravity events for the same reason it excels in XC. The derailleur shifts the opposite way under load so it's not as crisp or reliable. It also is uneccessary to have dual control shifters for front and rear when you only have a rear derailleur thus making it overkill and irrelevant for gravity riders.
I have found that if you are having problems using the system and find yourself shifting while braking or vice-versa you just need to roll the shifter up a bit for better ergonomics. I believe the new XTR system is even better ergonomically-it works with smaller hands and has a multiple shift option now becaus the shifters engage sooner.
In my experience running a bike shop i have found that people really need to ride dual control on the mountain to experience it properly, you just can't see it perform around the parking lot.

Couple things: First, intuition has nothing to do with it for me - if anything, rapid rise is LESS intuitive because after years of riding regular derailleurs, my intuition is the opposite of rapid rise.

I disagree that shifting to lower grears under load is easier with rapid rise. I hear that a lot and I just don't understand. I'm not sure what you mean by "popping," but with a regular derailleur you can downshift through 3 or 4 gears at a time. With rapid rise it's one at a time (or, apparently, two at a time with the new xtr). When I come around a bend and find a steep wall, being able to get down 3 or 4 gears quickly is really important, and the inability to do that with rapid rise was really frustrating. On the other hand, I can't think of a time when I need to upshift 4 gears at once.

As for dual control shifting the opposite under load, I think you are confusing dual control with rapid rise.

This stuff is all opinion and to each his own, of course. I'm just glad the new XTR will have all options.

 

[sanjuro]

Couple things: First, intuition has nothing to do with it for me - if anything, rapid rise is LESS intuitive because after years of riding regular derailleurs, my intuition is the opposite of rapid rise.

I disagree that shifting to lower grears under load is easier with rapid rise. I hear that a lot and I just don't understand. I'm not sure what you mean by "popping," but with a regular derailleur you can downshift through 3 or 4 gears at a time. With rapid rise it's one at a time (or, apparently, two at a time with the new xtr). When I come around a bend and find a steep wall, being able to get down 3 or 4 gears quickly is really important, and the inability to do that with rapid rise was really frustrating. On the other hand, I can't think of a time when I need to upshift 4 gears at once.

As for dual control shifting the opposite under load, I think you are confusing dual control with rapid rise.

This stuff is all opinion and to each his own, of course. I'm just glad the new XTR will have all options.

I believe Heath is saying that Dual Control w/Rapid Rise, not Rapid Rise with a regular shifter pod, is more intuitive, which I agree. Shift to an easier gear, push lever down; shifter to a harder gear, push lever up. If you think about it, with normal derailleurs, pushing the big paddles change the gears in opposite difficulty, i.e. left harder, right easier.

Also, the situations where you might up or down shift works well with DC/RR. For example, if I am climbing, my hands are on the grips and I am very likely to shift to an easier gear. I then flick my fingers up, and I down shifted. Conversely, if I am descending, my hands on the brake levers, and I up shift to a harder gear by pushing down.

That is the reason why I like DC with a Low-Normal rear derailleur. I don't think shifting is any better or worse.

 

[robdamanii]

SRAM is introducing dual control for road bikes. It's supposed to make it into the Tour next year.

I haven't run sh|tmano for years. I don't like the SRAM trigger shifters but totally dig on the gripshaft.

I'm sure you've all seen this:

Interesting video. Not sure what it's proving besides the strength of the springs on each derailleur.

 

[ghostrider]

My thoughts are this: shifting method will always be a personal preference, and I don't think from a shifting perspective the dual control idea can be right or wrong. BUT I don't want my choice of brakes defined by my choice of shifters or vice versa, and that's final. Those parts don't wear at the same interval, and the more modularity the more choice when it comes to replacement. I also don't like the notion of the derailleur spring providing the force to move to larger cogs. A clean drivetrain is one thing, but cover it in crap and all bets are off. I suppose it would be handy if you ever snapped your shifter cable out on the trail, though...at least you could pedal home.

 

[Liquid10]

My current FR/DH bike had dual control shifters/rapid rise Shimano Saint Derailuer when I bought it (I have no idea why Kona put these on the Stinky Primo out of the factory). I've rode them all this time because I didn't want to spend the $$ to buy shifters and new brake master cylinders to replace the integrated units (shimano really screws you into using their specific components)

I was skeptical at first but I got used to the dual control very quickly. It's rideable for sure. I ride trails with big hits and very steep/tech sections, and i've still found the shifters to be adequate. The casings for the shifter/brake lever are surprisingly tough. I've had countless nasty wrecks where the dualcontrols took direct hits and they still work fine.

The dual controls have downsides though.
Shifting the front derailleur up can be quite difficult, and require you to remove most of your fingers from the bars (This is not smart unless you slow down or are in an easy section of trail).
The rapid rise derailleur is a bad idea for DH/FR, If you lose your shift cable it defaults to the lowest gear, making it useless when your descending.

In conclusion the dual controls aren't as bad as most people think, however if i had a choice I would still go with SRAM style trigger shifters

 

[blue]

Eh, I don't care for trends (hating on dual-control), but I had them for about 4 months on my XC bike about a year ago and they never grew on me for a few reasons.

-Rapidrise never shifted well, especially in crappy conditions
-Never got used to the feeling of shifting. I had a roadie with STI and it never bugged me, but on the MTB it felt really weird to me, coming from triggers.
-Shimano proprietary crap crap crap, which I have a strong dislike for. My XT brakes always had issues (even after being bled by Shimano techs at Sea Otter twice), and I had no real choice in getting rid of them for something else without screwing up half my bike.

So, I sold mine on ebay with brakes and derailleur for like 300 bucks and bought SRAM x.9 and Avid mechs...I was happy.

 

[jdcamb]

The dual control system works exponentially better with rapid rise rear derailluers.

I agree.

as it is an intuitive system that works with the subconcious part of the brain-I'm not kidding-this is all Shimano research ad I have found it to be true myself under application.

Uhh OK.

I have also found that when you need to shift really quickly under torque you can with out "popping" your chain like with sram or regular shifting. A huge advantage to those of us who like to climb technical trails.

I agree

I have found that if you are having problems using the system and find yourself shifting while braking or vice-versa you just need to roll the shifter up a bit for better ergonomics.

Most folks leave the shifters and suspension settings that are set when the mechanic builds the bike. Usually because the shop doesn't take the time to properly set it up for the customer. I (my shop) dedicates a full hour to customers who buy full suspension bikes just for setup. I make it an event and the customers love it. I do the same at the 30 day tune-up.

In my experience running a bike shop i have found that people really need to ride dual control on the mountain to experience it properly, you just can't see it perform around the parking lot.

The parking lot is usually the only chance you get.. But I agree.