Durango MtX
- Thread starter Damn True
- Start date
Great article.
"Woe to you if you hole shotted; you were just a target."
Yep, I can vouch for that. I have little 4X experience and just ran out of the gate as hard as I could only to be torpedoed in the first berm. Won't do that again.
"Woe to you if you hole shotted; you were just a target."
Yep, I can vouch for that. I have little 4X experience and just ran out of the gate as hard as I could only to be torpedoed in the first berm. Won't do that again.
I know i wasn't the only one who looked at the course and decided to save my $45 for something else.
Lee raises some good points about course construction and the future viablity of 4x racing at a national level. We are currently dealing with the same issues with our DH courses here in the NW. No money to build courses and lots of land access issues. Not enough attendance to make ski areas viable. Hence why we all drive to Whistler. Course design will always be an issue. HB defense sounded legit. He was following NORBA guidelines for what the course should look like. However, if you want to get more people to race 4x, big scary courses like the ones at Whistler don't help. I'm a good expert DH racer, but I can't clear those jumps on a 4x bike.
Courses don't have to have manditory jumps, they should have jumps that aid in speed.buildyourown said:
http://leelikesbikes.com/Stories/033104/
This couse is awesome. You can roll anything or jump anything, but jumping is faster.
Smart design and at the very least...a finishline jump
A MTNx course was built in our area last year and it was exciting...for the first 3 runs. Then after that the course got so boring. It was built by some folks who where new to MTNx and did what they could based on there limited experience. But in summary it was too fast and the jumps were way too small for the speed you carried.
Year two (this yeasr) saw a major reconstruction led by a regional BMX/ MTNx pro. The course was slowed and made more complex with rollers and flat turns. The builder spent three weekends in a Bobcat working his a$$ off from daylight til dark. The course is built in a MTB park developed by the county and the local riders on county soil. Last year the county delievered more than enough dirt, so this year we did just a little moving and pushing.
Due to a rain storm, the finals for the summer race where postponed so no one has 'raced' the course yet. But during practice sessions with 4 across its all about the gate. The course is still too fast and has limited safe passing options. I, for one, don't like courses that are one dimensional.
Getting blown out in the gate and riding your brakes all the way down looking for a place to pass is boring. I would like the idea of racing 4 across, but the courses need to be designed with more passing opportunities and longer in length.
Year two (this yeasr) saw a major reconstruction led by a regional BMX/ MTNx pro. The course was slowed and made more complex with rollers and flat turns. The builder spent three weekends in a Bobcat working his a$$ off from daylight til dark. The course is built in a MTB park developed by the county and the local riders on county soil. Last year the county delievered more than enough dirt, so this year we did just a little moving and pushing.
Due to a rain storm, the finals for the summer race where postponed so no one has 'raced' the course yet. But during practice sessions with 4 across its all about the gate. The course is still too fast and has limited safe passing options. I, for one, don't like courses that are one dimensional.
Getting blown out in the gate and riding your brakes all the way down looking for a place to pass is boring. I would like the idea of racing 4 across, but the courses need to be designed with more passing opportunities and longer in length.
Why not just hold 4X events at local bmx tracks? It sounds like the racers that don't like the current courses really want something that closely resembles a BMX track.
Motionboy2 said:Courses don't have to have manditory jumps, they should have jumps that aid in speed.
http://leelikesbikes.com/Stories/033104/
This couse is awesome. You can roll anything or jump anything, but jumping is faster.
Smart design and at the very least...a finishline jump
Would you guys add or change anything in this course?
Snow Shoe (the best 4x course imo) was built in early spring and stays up all season. Mt Snow was a course of good design, but it was finished the day of the national , to say that it was squishy is an understatement. In addition, the course was built on a spring! the 2003 Mt Snow course was a fun one with a good surface.
More discussion----
Lee: It seems like most riders, especially the pros, want to ride big gnarly courses with big jumps.
HB: "This isn't dirt jumping. You can do that any day. This is mountain bike racing."
My response is to HB and NORBA would be stop living in the the past. The growth of this sport lies in the crossover of bmx riders to mtb's. Make lame courses and watch nobody come.
Also DS is still more popular. You will get DH guys who do not care for MTX. Look at seaotters #'s
Lee: It seems like most riders, especially the pros, want to ride big gnarly courses with big jumps.
HB: "This isn't dirt jumping. You can do that any day. This is mountain bike racing."
My response is to HB and NORBA would be stop living in the the past. The growth of this sport lies in the crossover of bmx riders to mtb's. Make lame courses and watch nobody come.
Also DS is still more popular. You will get DH guys who do not care for MTX. Look at seaotters #'s
One question comes to mind. Why the hell do they let someone who hasn't raced in over a decade... who NEVER raced MTN-X design and build a course. I'll tell you why. So they can say "H-Ball designed the course". Our sport has some REAL f'ups running it. All out glory seeking!!! Rob the guy that has built some of the better courses this year (Sea Otter/Idaho) is going to be the builder for all the Nationals next year. He is still learning, but he is IMO the ONLY builder heading in the right direction.
I was talking to Steve Wentz yesterday about that actually. The only thing he said was to add one flat corner.DVNT said:
My suggestion is to make the step up a little longer because you are cooking into it and it is easy to overshoot.
Otherwise it is a fun course. As Lee says, a Medicine ball could ride it because it has plenty of flow!
Well said. H-Ball is a complete ass anyway. He still thinks he is the World Champ. Talked to him about the anodizing coming off my two month old Boxxer. He said "yeah they forgot to clean a bunch of those before anodizing".Msisle Dad said:
ME:So this will be replaced by RS right? H-B: Well no it doesn't effect the fork. Me:Yeah it does. H-B: How's that? ME: Tired of people asking what the hell is wrong with your fork, but if RS likes defective crap running around fine.
I would personally flatten the last two berms at the Nathrop track, the ones right before and right after the rythym section. Basically, having those turns flat wouldn't kill the flow, but would slow the track down a bit, allow for more passing (hopefully) and also make the first jump in the last straight a little more safe (it's a really short step-up with a long backside that is pretty easy to overshoot). That's my input, but the track is really super duper fun as is, just needs a little bit more opportunity to pass.DVNT said:
I doubt he's the only buidler heading in the right direction. I really feel the Cycle Cyndicate team builds really great courses as well. Angel Fire, NM and Nathrop are examples of this. The only track I have ridden of theirs that I was NOT thouroughly impressed with was the Snomass course. It didn't SUCK, but it wasn't as good as their other tracks, and I attribute it to the fact that, like HB, the crew followed the NORBA guidelines when designing it.dhtahoe said:
I'd like to see NORBA get AWAY from the standard/guideline of having a 180 degree first turn, it openly invites contact too easily. Like LLB said, get to that first corner first, and you become a target for other riders. the better tracks I have ridden have 95-125 degree first turns, and the race becomes LESS about the holeshot and more about passing manuevers later in the course.
Fresh.
Idaho, was a huge improvement over the previous year, but the first corner and rock section were pretty dumb. The rest of the course was pretty interesting when it wasn't won in the first corner.dhtahoe said:
How about a berm turn that can get all four riders sise by side NASCAR style. Now that's good racing. Rubbing is racing... getting slammed into by Mr. I'm not winning so niether are you... is not!
Banked turns might be the key... not berms, eh?dhtahoe said:
This is how courses should be designed! All these people on this forum have their own experiences, with all this input you have the opportunity to make a SUPERCOURSE! So why not have open lines of communication between all of the people that build the Norba courses. Everyone has their experience and they know what works, but by putting all these great minds together they could optimize each course and make them great!DVNT said:
Motionboy2 said:
Yeah but, "Designed by Greg Herbold" sounds a lot better than "Designed by a bunch of guys on the internet"
The guys in the UK have the MTX going on. See the course in the Dirt video where the course splits into 4 different (all viable options too with some shorter lines with big jumps and longer lines with rollers) lines for a bit then regroups into one.....awesome.
HB = Has Been 
They need to just stop screwing around with this silly 4x, mountain cross stuff and let some 26'ers race the DH BMX courses. Now those are rediculous, and plenty of room for passing
They need to just stop screwing around with this silly 4x, mountain cross stuff and let some 26'ers race the DH BMX courses. Now those are rediculous, and plenty of room for passing
Not really, because if the guys that are consulting on this are the builders for the west virginia course, the durango course, sea otter, sandpoint, snowmass etc as well as input from places like sandhill (i think that is right) in cali and other areas also, then you have the elite names all working together to perfect each design.buildyourown said:
Basically HB would take his design and say "hey guys what do you think" they would say, "Hmmm, you probably need to pump up this berm a little, ad a large double here but otherwise you seem good" He can go do some revising and come back with another plan. They can tweek that and then come up with the ultimate course.
Then they all can use their experience to tweek each one of their unique designes to up the flow, add the Awwe factor for the spectators and give a little more consistancy to the quality of the courses.
Sometimes the courses seem to take away from the riders skills and it is just the luck of who didn't crash. I would love to see some rhythm sections that you have to look at for a while to figure out the best way through.
I remember last year at Snowmass for the regional event there was a rhythm section that I watched ross start by doubling everything, then manualing everything, then he tripled stuff, then he started putting it together to make the fastest line through. It probably took him about a half hour to an hour to make the perfect line. These courses don't do that. The riders have 1 option maybe 2. It isn't as much about who is faster, but who doesn't get thrown over the berm. Just My .02
Isn't it funny that bikes with smaller wheels and no suspension have big jumps and the ones with big wheels and full suspension have no jumps?hev said:HB = Has Been
They need to just stop screwing around with this silly 4x, mountain cross stuff and let some 26'ers race the DH BMX courses. Now those are rediculous, and plenty of room for passing
Motion, my point was that HB got the job because of his name recognition. I have no doubt that the combined knowledge of those on this board would yeild an exceptional course.
Face it the real issue here is that we need a Riders Union. Most of the other big time sports have a players Union. Baseball, Football, Auto Racing, they all have them. We are all tired of NORBA/Usa Cycling calling all the shots. They have lost touch with the riders, DICTATE who gets paid and who doesn't, yet they all seem to be taking home a fat paycheck. Only a few people represent us... the riders in that "organization". Why are the few Icons left not doing more to make things better. We all need to do something radical to get ALL of our points across. Like show up to the Mammoth Finals and have a HUGE protest. Great Place for it because it's all U.S. Athletes.Motionboy2 said:
No war is won without a fight!- Winston Churchhill
And we have not been taking the fight to NORBA... we just sit here and whine about it.
OK...the perfect, perfect, PERFECT start to any MTNX course was the one at Worlds when Lopes and Palmer raced in the finals. I remember Palmer sported his Slayer D2. It started of with a really wide straight away. It had a short 6 pack of different width spaced jumps that you could time about 3 different ways. It led into a section of oddly placed, NOT TOO BIG moguls. About 8 offset rows (fairly evenly spaced, but not too uniform) that looked similar to the lining of a carton of eggs. The first turn was NEVER a given for anybody that raced that final b/c timing as opposed to lane choice or gate start was the determining factor.
Every single run of that World's final that I watched was INTENSE b/c of the start straight. The combination of routes that people took through it was as differing as anything you've ever seen. The rest of the course suffered from "one-line" syndrome, but that part was great.
That is the perfect start straight.
Every single run of that World's final that I watched was INTENSE b/c of the start straight. The combination of routes that people took through it was as differing as anything you've ever seen. The rest of the course suffered from "one-line" syndrome, but that part was great.
That is the perfect start straight.
personally id b happy to see 4x fade away.
Not Berms? Evan you suck and I am going to kick your ass.Full Trucker said:
MOuntain cross should start with a steep roll in and then a few sets of doubles to break up the hole advantage then go into a BERMED first corner (no 180 bull sh*t) maybe even a corner with two berms, then followed by a tricky but rollable rythm. But the faster you go, the bigger it can get but for the less confident it is rollable. Also Have a steep section where you can put whoops that you mach into and just skip across them none of this up hill roller's sh^t. I have the ideas up here but if NOrba let me do a NAT. they would have a Sh*t and so would the racer's. We still haven't seen the patenial of MTX. Maybe one we will.
And who ever said to just run them on a BMX track hasn't a clue to what MTX is. That would be just MTB on a Bmx track and that is fackin gay and we can do that any day of the week. MTX needs to have it's personality that can be seen as different from BMX. What the X games had for BMX is what MTB should be looking at.
Also yeah flat corner's are good but not after a four pack that if you jump them then you miss the f'ng corner.
What Motion boy said about having options is great and I think that a course should take the better rider's an hour of practice to dial it not 5 minutes like they do now. Different ways to pass and hit a section will make it fun to ride and fun to watch. these are my dos sentagos, oh and also Lee is old and I am going to wax him next year, that is my mission for '05
Juano said:
I think this is real important. Getting beginners to sport to expert to semi to pro is the key. Our local MTNx track is only going to see so many pro/expert guys that can clear big, scary stuff. But it could potentially see tons of beginners and sports have the times of their lives. So making it challanging for advanced riders, but still fun and safe for new riders is what is going to get more people involved.
profro said:
I think this sums up the whole challenge. Especially in what I'm looking to do as it's on county property.
The only solution I can think of this early in the morning is what somebody posted in a previous thread about a UK MTNX course that split into 4 different lines that were just different and offer different challenges.
What do you guys think about that idea? Would it turn into a cluster fahk when they joined back up?
I think it would work if you made the more technical lines have a clear time advantage. That would join them back to the main line ahead of the competition. We used a lot of rollers in front of table tops on our course. The inexperienced riders have to roll over them, but the more experienced riders can jump up on the tables or even backside them. That has helped keep it challenging to advanced riders but safe for beginners.
Windrock and the Bigfoot MTNx course are at two different locals. Windrock gets too muddy to ride in late December and stays that way until March usually. Bigfoot is about the same, but its 'open" all year around.
Have you heard anything about this, I think it's up your way. I was gonna check it out but I heard last night that the promoter canceled it.
Dan Brown from the Trials Training Center over in Sequatchie Valley called me to solicit some help for the TBRA races coming up in October. They will be running Trials, DH, and XC.
He said he and his crew can handle the logistics for this major event, but they are in dire need of assistance with the bike races. He needs riders to come out any evening or weekend and help him choose a course. He has a logging road uphill and a nice single track downhill that'll make a 6-7 mile course, but he needs MTB's out there to help him decide on the best lines and to point out any parts of the trails that he needs to work on.
The schedule:
Sat., Oct. 9
Bicycle Trials events
Downhill races
Sun., Oct. 10
TBRA XC races
The XC is on the TBRA calendar, but Dan needs a NORBA official to OK the course layout and to run the race. And he needs some volunteers with XC racing experience to help with pulicity and marshalling. He has the insurance, EMT, lodging, refreshments, PA and everything else under control.
For the Downhill Race, Dan has some super sick sh!t... He needs bikers with course design and DH race experience to help run the event. Again, all of the logistics are taken care of, and he just needs volunteers and officials.
If you are interested, please contact Dan immediately. This is a great opportunity to open up a new riding area and to work with a guy who has run some world-class motorcycle and bicycle trials events.
http://www.trialstrainingcenter.com
Dan Brown from the Trials Training Center over in Sequatchie Valley called me to solicit some help for the TBRA races coming up in October. They will be running Trials, DH, and XC.
He said he and his crew can handle the logistics for this major event, but they are in dire need of assistance with the bike races. He needs riders to come out any evening or weekend and help him choose a course. He has a logging road uphill and a nice single track downhill that'll make a 6-7 mile course, but he needs MTB's out there to help him decide on the best lines and to point out any parts of the trails that he needs to work on.
The schedule:
Sat., Oct. 9
Bicycle Trials events
Downhill races
Sun., Oct. 10
TBRA XC races
The XC is on the TBRA calendar, but Dan needs a NORBA official to OK the course layout and to run the race. And he needs some volunteers with XC racing experience to help with pulicity and marshalling. He has the insurance, EMT, lodging, refreshments, PA and everything else under control.
For the Downhill Race, Dan has some super sick sh!t... He needs bikers with course design and DH race experience to help run the event. Again, all of the logistics are taken care of, and he just needs volunteers and officials.
If you are interested, please contact Dan immediately. This is a great opportunity to open up a new riding area and to work with a guy who has run some world-class motorcycle and bicycle trials events.
http://www.trialstrainingcenter.com
Im going to call HB's bullsh!t on this one! I know the kids who built the course last year very well. they are extremely skilled riders who have alot of experience building great jumps and trails. They said HB would not allow them to put any of their own input into the track. He "designed" the course and they had to stick to the plans even though they were so terrible. On top of that I hear HB complaining that he gets paid nothing to do "all" the work? These guys said they were up there for an entire week before the race listening to that guys crap while they were working and he was ripping around on his quad while drinking beers. I personally met the guy this spring while dirt jumping nearby his house and volunteered my time to helping with the mtnx and dh tracks. I gave him my phone number and told him to call when the time came around to start building. I never heard from him. I REALLY want to see mtnx be successfull. Hell, ive been drawing slalom and 4x tracks on me freetime for about 5 years now just playing around with ideas of different obstacles and lines. I would love to be given the opportunity to actually carry something out onto a racecourse.
Ya know he just built it to be able to drive his RC's on it before they tear it down. I don't know why he keeps bringing those stupid things to a MTN bike race. They won't let guys hold a impromtu Jump comp (couple years back) but it's ok for HB to bring out noisy little stupid RC's you can't even see and try and watch them crash. Whoo Hoo! 
I have never raced Moto-X but if I went down to the Honda dealer and bought myself a CR-250 and sent for an AMA card I could show up and race at an AMA outdoor National as a Novice. I would be riding the very same track that Ricky Carmichael would be riding on Sunday. Difference being that I'd be singleing the jumps (or rolling) and RC would be going trips or quads on them. Same track, yet challenging for riders of very different ability levels........ABA does this too no? I think this is the first paradigm that needs to be applied to a course design.
Why can these tracks exist and meet the needs of these different riders? Because the tracks are not 2 week wonders that are built then torn down all within the alloted 14 day period. I think that one of the primary factors in this issue is the temporary nature of the majority of courses. Look at the venues where the courses are good. Whistler, Snowmass, WV, Sand Hill ....all permanent MtX tracks. The temporary stuff (excepting Glee-Otter) has been rubbish. I know there is a long relationship with places like Durango and Mt. Snow and a ton of racing history has been played out there, but IMO if the resorts wont sign on to a permanent MtX track as a part of a Mt. Bike park we need to find other resorts that will.
I don't pretend to have the answer, but I felt that my observations were valid.
Why can these tracks exist and meet the needs of these different riders? Because the tracks are not 2 week wonders that are built then torn down all within the alloted 14 day period. I think that one of the primary factors in this issue is the temporary nature of the majority of courses. Look at the venues where the courses are good. Whistler, Snowmass, WV, Sand Hill ....all permanent MtX tracks. The temporary stuff (excepting Glee-Otter) has been rubbish. I know there is a long relationship with places like Durango and Mt. Snow and a ton of racing history has been played out there, but IMO if the resorts wont sign on to a permanent MtX track as a part of a Mt. Bike park we need to find other resorts that will.
I don't pretend to have the answer, but I felt that my observations were valid.