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Duthie - 2Hi - Update

Discussion in 'Pacific Northwest' started by mutton, Feb 7, 2010.

  1. mutton

    mutton Chimp

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    Hi All,

    This is a request from the "2Hi" trail builders - that people DO NOT hike / walk back up the trail.

    I noticed a ton of people have been hiking back up the hill and cutting the switch backs - and walking straight up the hill. :wtf:This is NOT cool. Firstly it looks freeking ugly to see braiding and destruction of the natural vegetation. Secondly it is not safe to have people hiking up the trail and thirdly this is going to cause erosion problems.:banghead:

    A lot of people have spent a sh1t load of time building trails out at Duthie and now we (the 2Hi trail builders) are asking that people respect this request and push back up the road.

    I spent an hr or two y'day blocking off these new hiking trails that have developed.

    SO PLEASE - if everyone reading this could join a Ridemonkey Army and spread the word - I would be power grateful. If you see people hiking up the trail you can:-

    1. tell them nicely that this not cool :nope:

    2. show them the "NO ENTRY" sign at the bottom of the trail (next to the table at the end):stop: (ask them if they can read....wtf?)

    3. Point them to the road

    4. WARN THEM....If they dont respect this request...I will set the "Jeepmauller" on them (I am not kidding) :bonk::bonk::bonk:

    Thanks y'all....I am worried that I am going to see some dude walking up some makeshift path and just lose my marbles. :triniti::oops:

    If anyone has ideas how to prevent this happening - please let me know...one suggestion was to build a low fence on the uphill side of the trail...but wtf...I would rather invest that time maintaining / improving the trail as opposed to this sh1t.

    Did anyone get out yesterday - saturday...holy cr#p...how good were the trails running! How much stoke was there out there!! Yeagh...

    Adios
    Mutton
     
    #1 -   Feb 7, 2010

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  2. Mike.rider

    Mike.rider Monkey

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    razor wire and land mines....:rolleyes:
     
    #2 -   Feb 7, 2010
  3. pnj

    pnj Turbo Monkey till the fat lady sings

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    I like to pedal back up the xc trail that starts(?) at the end of the road. is that trail supposed to be a one way/downhill trail?

    why, oh why, would you want to go up the fire road? (borrrrinngg..)
     
    #3 -   Feb 7, 2010
  4. jdusto

    jdusto Chimp

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    Hey mutton,

    Your trail is super popular but unfortunately it seems it is beginning to show signs of not being able to handle the level of use. If you are up to coming out to Duthie mid-week I will give you a hand to get it back to spec.

    JD
     
    #4 -   Feb 7, 2010
  5. fuzzycatnuts

    fuzzycatnuts Monkey

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    Another intermediate line between dwb and dirt core would help with some of the traffic, not sure if thats phase 1 or 2. You made it to fun :)

    We (DWB) are going to have a hiking path next to our line because people are going to want to check things take pictures ect, and like we learned at colonnade people are just going to walk were ever the **** they want anyway so it will be good option to keep people off the main jump line. More signage is needed for sure.

    I will help spread the word about taking the road back up to the top (super easy peddle anyway).
     
    #5 -   Feb 8, 2010
  6. muddy beast

    muddy beast Turbo Monkey

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    Good way to go for sure. Any line/trail that has a significant amount of jumps/drops SHOULD have some sort of trail to hike up/down along side it IMO. I mean the general rule of thumb for jumps is to always check things out before you hit them, and who realistically is going to want to ride down without jumping only to have to hike/ride twice as far on a totally different trail to get to the top again? You also bring up a good point about pictures, if there's cool stunts and what not, it should also be expected pictures will be taken and as a result people will be hiking AROUND the trails. It's all just the nature of the beast I suppose.

    With that said, I'll do my best to respect the builders wishes as without you guys we'd have no trails to ride. ("you guys" being a very general term)

    ~Scott
     
    #6 -   Feb 8, 2010
  7. Borneo

    Borneo Turbo Monkey

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    Sorry to hear that Dave.

    pnj, the switchback trail next to the road near Dave's exit is the "end" of the SW XC loop which encircles that area and is/will be predominantly uphill once the signage gets in and everyone can see the XC loops are designed to be ridden clockwise. That's all my baby so I'll be keeping up on it. (Just waiting for people to start cutting switchbacks there...)

    Still getting people cutting/clearing the old access trail to the top of the DC/DWB line. And, now people are also cutting from the SW/XC over to the entrance to the Luna/2high line as well. :rant: I just keep blocking them.....

    Just don't get it. Great to see everyone out there having fun. But...

    (I also heard that people are trying to ride up (or hike the bike) Ryan's Flow line too. Bad juju....)
     
    #7 -   Feb 8, 2010
  8. mutton

    mutton Chimp

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    Agree with everyone...'uphill' hiking trails would be awesome and most practical for all reasons mentioned (watching, pictures, social, etc..)...however the one consideration is that the trails are already so close together that this will create even more opportunities to cut over and create more braiding. When I was designing 2Hi I was asked to not come within 10 feet of another trail for the reason that the overall plan was to try and make each trail have the feel of being in the woods and to deliberately avoid having Duthie look like SST (i.e. forest trails vs flow park)

    I would dig to find a workable solution that preserves the vegetation and the feel of being in the forest.

    so far the landmines is a pretty good idea
     
    #8 -   Feb 8, 2010
  9. mutton

    mutton Chimp

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    please dont refer to my trail. The trail is called 2Hi. Thanks

    FYI: This is a "High Life Crew" (TM) trail...same dudes that built another FR line at Duthie (and there is another one coming in phase 2). The name therefore refers to "High Life trail" #2
     
    #9 -   Feb 8, 2010
  10. Borneo

    Borneo Turbo Monkey

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    I thought it was just called, "Deb's"? ;)

    Also, I know it's not a real "fun" thing to do but the access trail from the road to the DWB/DC/2Hi really needs work. It's just getting wider and wider as the mud gets deeper and deeper...

    Not sure if the pile of 5/8ths at the entrance is slated for that or not.
     
  11. F.M.

    F.M. Chimp

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    Sweet. HLC reprezent! by the way, I consider Jeepmauler to be OG- HLC. Great to have him back.:rofl:

    OK... now I am calling BS on the uphill hiking path idea.
    Is it OK for people to stop and gawk on Dirt Merchant or Freight Train? Or push their bikes back up the trail to hit a feature after they stopped to check it out? Hell no... in fact Whistler has some rules to that effect.

    Everything on 2hi seems to be rollable or have a ride-around, so there is no need to stop and check stuff out. Just ride around stuff until you are ready to hit it.

    As for getting up to the top: Man up and pedal (or push) up the fire-road, just like Dave does (usually the day after running a marathon or some sh*t).

    Great trail BTW- one of my faves there!
     
    #11 -   Feb 8, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  12. ebxtreme

    ebxtreme Monkey

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Duthie has something like 120 vert (max) and the flow lines are relatively short, so this isn't that big of an undertaking is it? I mean.....these are pedal bikes, no?

    EB
     
  13. largextracheese

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    Whistler trails are way wider than the trails at Duthie so there tends to be ample room to stand and gawk. Duthie doesn't. I've also been a tad bummed about the ferns that were replanted on the HLC line getting trampled. I'm now assuming that each side of the trail all the way down (on the FR/DH lines) is going to get trampled regardless. People love to bring their bike down the line a bit and then either leave it in the middle of the trail or fling it into the bushes on the side. Building some sort of border may work but will detract from the feel out there. Hopefully we can get dedicated hang spot by the big moves and decent signage so people know what to do. Many first timers don't realize that the road at the bottom loops back up to the clearing. A map placed at each major intersection will do wonders for the flow of traffic out there. I like to hang out and watch people hit jumps and stunts. It's half the fun. We just have to figure out how it will work to sustain the beauty of the park and not look like a herd of buffaloes just passed through.
     
  14. SeaPig

    SeaPig Monkey

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    Not to further blow this up, but correct me if I am wrong. The XC or road path back up goes to the clearing and the only path to the top of 2 HI from there is through the Luna chicks line. Or, right up the Luna Chicks line. If that is correct and the only access paths go to the top of DWB line, then you have created two problems. Actually three. One, you are asking people not to push your line, but push up another builder's line. Two, people taking the access path all the way up are rolling the lips of the DWB line and the berm to get to 2 HI. Not good for the builders of DWB. We spent hours yesterday fixing that berm. Three, you're just herding cats.

    IMO, all freeride and jump lines need parallel access paths so people can spy the terrain and watch other. This is part of the safety of progression. I understand the desire to make it not feel trodden, but a small access trail that assist riders to get to the top isn't going to stand out anymore than the trail in all those ferns. Sometimes we just put ideals in the way of being practical.

    Please keep in mind that I am not trying to start a fight, I worship builders. Anyone who knows me knows this. I just want to say that I've noticed at times that pragmatics get thrown out for ideals. Ideals that would be great, if they were not so not pragmatic.

    BTW, I love the 2 HI line.
     
  15. largextracheese

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    The road is actually easier and just as fast as hiking back up the actual trail. Keep in mind, we are just starting to see a glimpse of how popular Duthie will become. We are going to see a constant stream of riders coming down these trails. I know on the HLC line there are a few blind spots that if someone was hiking back up, there would be a serious accident. It only makes sense to funnel out at the bottom and take the road back. Another thing to do is to give a holler when coming down the trails. A quick "dropping in" or "coming down" goes a long way on the safety front.
     
  16. thom9719

    thom9719 Turbo Monkey

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    I threw some dirt on some of the berms on saunday afternoon. they were getting pretty torn up. We pulled a log out of one of them that was sticking out. (don't worry, we built the berm back to how it was). But I'd be up for helping with some maintenance on 2 Hi. there is another berm (the left hander after the jump with a big root in the beginning) that needs to have some logs removed from it. They are starting to get dangerous. We threw some dirt on that berm as well, but it is only a temporary fix.

    -KT
     
  17. Kevmo

    Kevmo Chimp

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    Etiquette. Noun. The local, customary code of polite behavior in society or among members of a particular profession or group.

    Hiking/pushing back up a trail is not acceptable on a One-Way trail.
    Duthie is designed as a One-way trail system and will be signed properly soon. There are intentionally designed options to return to the beginning of ALL the Flowlines lines: The access road or the XC loops going clockwise. It did make sense to push up when the lines were not to the bottom. But all the lines in the SW and NW quadrant are pushed through now, so buck up.

    Risk of collision from pushing up and the inherent trail braiding that occurs from it is a significant safety concern. As well as creating erosion and vegetation problems.
    Granted people want to stop to check things out, take photos, watch friends, or spectate. Great. Do that as you go down.
    Do you learn by watching others? Hang out and watch, then go down.
    Enjoy the park, but respect the safety of everyone and do it as you go down.

    Please do not push up, you have easier and safer options to get to the top.
    Did I mention there are xc trails and an easy road to ride up? Have you tried them?
    Did you push up at SST? (RIP). No, you rode or pushed up the road.
    As FM mentions, You don't push up to session Whistler.
    You move to the side, watch your bro's and move down and do it again.
    Keep the flow moving downhill and set an example for the local etiquette.
    This will ultimately create a better user experience for all and keep the park beautiful as it sees more users and more impact.
    Thanks,
    Kevin "Kevmo" Philbin, HLC build team
     
    #17 -   Feb 8, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  18. mutton

    mutton Chimp

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    Hey Seapig...Ja, I get it. Oppinions / feedback are appreciated.

    I understand the dilemma you are posing with having to push / ride up the Luna Chicks line...I totally agree. We will find a good solution if everyone participates in the process....

    So lets find a solution. I have asked the dudes that designed the park and conceptualized the whole place to chime in.
     
  19. SeaPig

    SeaPig Monkey

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    Again, I am not trying to beat anyone up on this thread. I do believe though that pushing up a jump line, or within eyesight of that jump line is part of progression. Why not create a creative and sustainable path up your line? I mean how does someone who is banging over all your lips know that your line is actually a good pump and jump line, if they don't see someone better executing it that way.
     
  20. largextracheese

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    You are correct Seapig. It does funnel up LunaCix for now. 2high is getting a new entrance that is soon to be determined. Once that is determined we can route a better walk up. The walk up to DC and DWB is with the flow of traffic so it works.
     
  21. SeaPig

    SeaPig Monkey

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    IMO this would have been different, if you couldn't have spied the lines from the road and the little side access lines.

    This doesn't mean I think you have to push up all lines. Pushing up the downhill part of the Boot Camp trail is unnecessary. There are no jumps on that line.

    BTW Boot Camp is another amazing trail
     
  22. largextracheese

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    The other thing to think about here is that the less walk up trails we have, the more room we have to make new trails in the future on those same hillsides.
     
  23. Kevmo

    Kevmo Chimp

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    No, incorrect. There is a trail to access DC, DWB, Luna Chix and 2Hi across the road from the end of Boot Camp. Not clearly signed yet, it splits left to DC/DWB and goes right for Luna/2Hi.
    I think all would agree being pragmatic, the reality of herding cats, and not starting fights.
    However, this is not about ideals, practicality or opinions, but rather the marching orders from Evergreen and King Co as given by Mike Westra the Duthie Project Manager. Trails are One-Way.
     
    #23 -   Feb 8, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  24. mutton

    mutton Chimp

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    1. There is no SPACE to build a walk up line...that there is the DWB line on one side and the future DS line on the other.

    2. I build mtb trails not hiking trails...but i am trying to be really proactive and find a solution to something that is clearly not sustainable.

    I agree it would be nice to be able to walk up and watch other riders...however everything has to be done within the constraints that we have.

    This situation is NOT just limited to 2Hi...try and think about it on a bigger scale..... I dunno...dudes pushing up below the DWB step down...not safe, not clever...all we need is one little kid listening to his ipod and straying into the tranny to get beaned by "largextracheese"...
     
  25. largextracheese

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    The only thing I've hit was a dog. That brings up the next topic of discussion. Please keep your dogs out of the way out there. They love to jump in front of riders at all the wrong times. I love dogs, just don't want anybody hurt out there. I t-boned a buddies dog off the stepdown on the HLC line. Didn't feel good for either of us. Just be aware.
     
  26. muddy beast

    muddy beast Turbo Monkey

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    I disagree with this. When you're riding a bike with a single 40tooth front ring at 45lbs, it's a rare occasion to pedal UP hill AFTER spending your energy to jump. Granted, that's no longer the type of bike I'm riding...but my point is many of the people who will be riding the lines in question will be on big bikes that take a lot more effort to pedal up. In fact, I can only think of a hand-full of times I actually rode my bike up the paved road at SST, typically I walked it as my chance to take a break.

    I understand what you guys are trying to do with the "one way" deal, and again I always do my best to honor the builders wishes, but you must remember not everyone is on the same type a bike and not everyone is a skinny young gun with mass amounts of energy. And as far as it being dangerous to hike back up trails, I will say when I was at Duthie last week there were probably 5 guys all doing the same jump line as myself (don't know the name but it has the wood roller into the wood berm) and all of us were walking to the top, scoping out jumps to watch others hit them, figuring out speed/distance, etc. With all of us walking up the trails, there was not one problem with anyone getting in anyone else's way. When you're walking up a trail, that is one way, typically people are pretty good about stopping and waiting where appropriate.

    With that said I'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to voice my opinion and contribute as best I can to see that these trails are successful in all aspects. Regardless of all this, it's unfortunate we don't have any way for people to walk back up the jump trails...but I suppose at least we have trails to ride to begin with.

    ~Scott
     
    #26 -   Feb 8, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  27. F.M.

    F.M. Chimp

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    There is something like 140' of total vert at Duthie Hill. Maybe a "bike with a single 40tooth front ring at 45lbs" isn't the ideal rig? You will not hear any of the builders complain about riding a SS hardtail down these trails, or pushing a big heavy bike back up, if thats their choice. Ride what you brought.

    Totally dig your positive attitude, so I agree, good call focusing on solutions.

    For me it's pretty simple, the people who built these trails have made a polite request. Respect their wishes and enjoy the trails, seems like the best way forward. I don't think anybody would choose to lose another potential DH trail to gain a hike-up trail? Lets all use the road (pedal or push) so builders can milk every inch of that 140' of vert for more fun DH runs.
     
    #27 -   Feb 8, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  28. Kevmo

    Kevmo Chimp

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    Yep true that. Most times I pushed up the road at SST as well, even with small bikes, it made it easier to chat, and catch one's breath. I know you are not trying to start a fight. This is dialog. Dialog often takes positions, and that can get heated quickly.
    I agree with your points, and a safe, sustainable solution needs to be addressed.
    Your's and my opinion are not the issue here, nor are the builder's wishes, ideals, hopes, dreams, puppy dogs, rainbows, unicorns, etc.
    Disregarding the trail standards and rules set forth by agreement between Evergreen and King Co. is not acceptable. Pushing up a One-Way trail is still against the rules.
     
  29. YoPawn

    YoPawn Chimp

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    Welcome to building for the public! Your lobotomy should be ready shortly. :D

    I could write a 10 page skookum post about all the dumb-ass schit I've seen working at Colonnade and Duthie.

    In the end, there is no way to keep everyone following the rules. You will drive yourselves bonkers trying to do the impossible. Trust me! :D

    The worst line right now, is the HLC line from the clearcut. A LOT of kids are walking back up that, mainly because there is no other way out of there. It's decently safe until the step down after the two doubles. Saw some bad encounters there.

    My new line at Duthie is not going to have an entrance or an exit until the thing is 100% done and ready for the public. It's very frustrating trying to build on lines that are already open. Been ran over countless times on the NE and Bootcamp trails, even with signs and shovels blocking the way.
     
    #29 -   Feb 8, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  30. DamienD

    DamienD Monkey

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    thats just asking for it. come on get it together. ride down the jump lines and dont walk up it. walk up some other way. it just safer.
     
  31. largextracheese

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    The HLC line is now punched through in 3 spots at the end now. You can either hit the Happy Ending gapper, skip the gapper and follow the trail straight and link up with the new xc line back to the clearing, or head downhill just a bit to the road. Now that we've filled in the first gapper it will no doubt see more traffic. Luckily hiking back up just plain sucks, so people will want to go to the bottom to get out. Thanks for the positive feedback YoPond!:brow:
     
  32. YoPawn

    YoPawn Chimp

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    Good to hear! I was getting worried about those sections since it had become such a popular line at Duthie.

    You guys have a sick line going on in there. Can't wait till it's done.


    Edit: Oh, I see you took my remarks as offense. I was referring to the situation of people going up the trail the last time I was at Duthie being the worst. Otherwise I think your trail is the coolest one out there for my riding style. So don't get all butt hurt. OK? :)
     
    #32 -   Feb 9, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2010
  33. mwestra2

    mwestra2 Monkey

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    Just back in town and ready to start living out at Duthie for the next few months. Good thread. Here's what's in the plan:

    • a couple well designed walk-up routes near the Dirt Corps, DWB and future Dual Slalom.
    • "1-way Bike Only" signs at the top.
    • "Do not enter" signs at the bottom.

    We were hoping that would be enough to accomplish 2 things that must happen if the freeride/dh lines are going to stay open:
    1. keep people from walking (or riding) back up the 1-way trails.
    2. keep people from destroying the woods by trampling vegetation.

    So we have to get started on the walk-ups and finish the signage ASAP. In the meantime, please use the connector road to get back up to the top. Don't forget... the park is under construction. Please don't destroy it before it's even finished.

    I hope we don't have to take the time and spend the money on fencing instead of building more trails and awesome features in Phase 2!!

    Here's the Phase 1 plan for what we're calling the "Flow Park":


    This shows the planned walk-ups and Phase 2 dual slalom:
     
  34. mutton

    mutton Chimp

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    Thanks Mike!

    welcome back....look fwd to seeing you out there.
     
  35. joelsman

    joelsman Turbo Monkey

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    you should put a sign at the top too with a map so people know where to go to get back to the top with out going up the trail. I think the sign at the top will do a lot of good cuz some aren't going all the way down
     
  36. F.M.

    F.M. Chimp

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    Maybe you should drop some string behind your bike while you ride down, then you can follow it back up to where you started
    :thumb:
     
  37. thom9719

    thom9719 Turbo Monkey

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    That would involve hiking back up the trail.

    to be honest guys, you are fighting a losing battle. you will NEVER stop people hiking up the trail to session sections/stunts. I would be looking at how to impliment safe hiking only trails right beside the trails to allow it.

    I understand respecting builders wishes, but if people are out shooting photos, they want to hit the same stunt/section over and over again. they don;t want to ride to the bottom and all the way around every time. This goes for learning a new section and testing features as well.

    If you don't put a hiking trail up right beside the line, one will be trampled in against your wishes. I hate to be a bummer, but it has already happened, will continue to happen and has happened at every other trail I can think of.

    -KT
     
  38. jeepmauler

    jeepmauler Monkey

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    This^^^^^^^^^^^^is the truth.
     
  39. pnj

    pnj Turbo Monkey till the fat lady sings

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    Hire ninjas to hide in the bushes. or snipers....

    I agree with the 'people taking pics' and 'learning a section/stunt' logic though.

    I do think that with proper signs that MOST of the trail hacking can be eliminated.(sp?)
     
  40. ryanrider

    ryanrider Chimp

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    Good point but with most of the stunts, to do just one requires doing the entire line. I think the builders had this in mind when designing/building the trails. But yes overall it will be hard to convince people that a 5 min hike up for a 30 sec trail is worth it.. I'm willing to make that sacrifice though.


    -Ryan