[troy]

Are people still using Jade shocks these days?
I am considering switching my X2 for a coil on my trail bike and the Jade fits the bill when it comes to price, serviceability, tuning and availability. I found the DHX2 to be a bit pricey and the latest iteration of the RC4 is hard to get in 200mm length.

I've ridden the Jade coil in a few trailbikes and the large shaft on it negates a lot of the performance benefits that a coil shock should offer. Combined with the high minimum chamber pressure, there is a high breakaway force on that shock. I wouldn't bother personally if your intent is to gain coil advantages over the air shock. The small-shaft RC4 is great but agreed it is hard to find in that size.

Can you get an XFusion Vector HLR coil? I've heard good things, and it'd probably be my 2nd choice for a coil shock if I couldn't run the small-shaft RC4. It should be cheap too. Failing that I'd run a DHX2 or CCDB.

We were testing CCDB/CCDB air/Jade/ XF Vector HLR on the same bike. In theory, yes DVO would probably be even better with a small shaft like on RC4. This shock do not have high breakaway force at all. It is closer to the CCDB coil in terms of initial stiction than anything else. It is high quality and super easy to service thanks to the bladder. Knobs are nicely machined, but are terrible in terms of ergonomics. Edges are so sharp, that it was painful to use them even with gloves on Your hands. Standard shock valving is WAAAAAAY to light for most frames nowadays, so if You will choose DVO, get it with heavier valving - they will try to bs You that stock one will be fine, but it won't. Stock valving is for some low leverage suspension designs close to ~2:1, so I guess it won't suit Your bike that has 200mm shock.

XF Vector HLR is maybe not so nicely machined, but dials are super nice. Damping range of each adjuster is HUGE and every click makes a difference. It is nowhere near the DVO or CCDB or even CCDB air in terms of breakaway force (I guess that the main seal/bushing are sources of that friction). It is closer to a Manitou Revox. OFC I'm talking about brand new shocks, so it may change with time and some breaking in. Anyway I like it much better than the Revox shock I had a few years ago.

So... If You can get the DVO with the correct valving - go with the DVO, if not - get the XF.

 

[Udi]

This shock do not have high breakaway force at all. It is closer to the CCDB coil in terms of initial stiction than anything else.

I disagree with that (re: DVO), and I've ridden a few now with plenty of time to break in. The math backs it up - large shaft diameter and high chamber pressure do not add up to low breakaway. The bladder v IFP makes minimal difference since an IFP is hydraulically leveraged - and any benefit from the bladder becomes negligible if you design a shock with a smaller shaft anyway. That's why the bladder conversion kit for the CCDB (for example) is at least theoretically a pretty dumb "upgrade". Of course it helps more with a fat shaft, but why have one in the first place?

Standard shock valving is WAAAAAAY to light for most frames nowadays, so if You will choose DVO, get it with heavier valving - they will try to bs You that stock one will be fine, but it won't. Stock valving is for some low leverage suspension designs close to ~2:1, so I guess it won't suit Your bike that has 200mm shock. So... If You can get the DVO with the correct valving - go with the DVO, if not - get the XF.

In my strong opinion, monotube rear shocks have been done to death, so if your money should go anywhere - it should be the valving. If the valving is miles off, what did you pay for? This is how I felt about BOS and am reluctant to buy their products again. I purchased a shock then had to do their job for them by valving it myself.

I don't have any experience with the XF though (actually only suggested it because from memory you and tacubaya seemed to rate it), so it will be interesting to hear how that fares over time. Sounds like you've changed your mind? Shocks that need more than a few runs of break-in time suggest poor build quality IMO.

By any chance, did you came across a Holy Grail by Fast Suspension? http://www.fast-suspension.co.uk/holy-grail.html
I have a hard time to get info on performance and reliability even on the French forums but 740€ for a custom shock with spring and hardware is not a bad starting point if the rest follows

Never ridden one, but if you don't mind taking a gamble and can handle the price, I don't see why not. I read the original article they wrote about it (that website description sucks) and their philosophy sounded good / correct to me from memory. I really don't think the currently-available mainstream crop of coil shocks is particularly impressive, especially from a long term durability standpoint, so now's as good a time as any to roll the dice with an unproven product if you can't get your hands on a proven one. I'd be interested to hear what you think if you try it.

Maybe @troy or @tacubaya have more knowledge about it.

Just out of curiosity: what do you think of the Manitou Revox? I have run one on and off in the DH bike and am pretty impressed. They can be found for really cheap and also in trail bike lengths.

I am not a huge fan, like troy I found them a bit sticky.
I did get the feeling some are better than others after riding a few though, so maybe there is some variability.

 

[Udi]

I should add here that at least of what I've tried from the above, none are "bad" shocks and all work reasonably well. Plenty of fast guys are successfully running everything from the DVO to the CCDB to the DHX2.

But my post is for Happymtb who from what I can see has an unrestricted choice from past or present provided he can get his hands on it (along with a relatively high budget), so from that standpoint I think it would be silly to accept any known compromises.

I do find it a little strange/silly that current shocks have more problems than shocks from a generation ago, because unlike brakes for example (which needed to get more powerful for bigger wheels, perhaps leading to some reliability hurdles), shocks should have only improved.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

But my post is for Happymtb who from what I can see has an unrestricted choice from past or present provided he can get his hands on it (along with a relatively high budget), so from that standpoint I think it would be silly to accept any known compromises.

Thank, I appreciate!
My goal is to give a fair trial to a coil shock on my trail bike. I actually have a Fox X2 which is not a bad shock to start with and performs to my liking, but there might be a coil shock out there that I might like better, I just don't know it yet! I therefore aim for a good performing shock to start with. Reliability and consistency are high on my list. If I can service it myself, it is even better. Sending the shock for a retune before mounting it on the bike is not a major problem as long as I can find a reputable service center to do it...

@troy I appreciate your feedback! Do you know somebody in Europe working on DVO?

 

[Flo33]

@troy I appreciate your feedback! Do you know somebody in Europe working on DVO?

https://www.mrc-trading.de/Suspension-Service/2/

Tell me if you need some help translating.

 

[troy]

I disagree with that (re: DVO), and I've ridden a few now with plenty of time to break in. The math backs it up - large shaft diameter and high chamber pressure do not add up to low breakaway. The bladder v IFP makes minimal difference since an IFP is hydraulically leveraged - and any benefit from the bladder becomes negligible if you design a shock with a smaller shaft anyway.

I'm talking about shocks mentioned above, not all shocks ever made. Less stiction in the DVO comes from much better seals and tolerances. XF seals suck, and even the thinnest shaft wouldn't help it. Don't get me wrong tho, it is not that bad, but you can easily spot the difference. Once it get moving, it was fine. Damping-wise it was really, really nice.

 

[slimshady]

Since you are keen to try something less known and you are Euro based, might I bring the Stendec shocks into the conversation? The Storia is aimed to trail bikes, so it might do it for you.

 

[Udi]

I'm talking about shocks mentioned above, not all shocks ever made. Less stiction in the DVO comes from much better seals and tolerances.

My point was, if that's your definition of low friction and low breakaway force, then it's really not impressive. The ones I rode had higher breakaway force than all my Fox shocks, and more friction on direction changes as well. We should consider here that the shocks we've ridden may have had different tolerances from each other also - but in that case, it nullifies your "better tolerances" claim anyway.

I personally wouldn't drop aftermarket-priced cash into that shock as an upgrade from an air shock on a trailbike, but I'll leave it at that. If your application is your DH frame, keep in mind that shorter travel bikes generally run firmer spring rates and have less initial leverage. DH bikes can easily tame many shock shortcomings. I've tried a few of these shocks on 5-6" travel bikes now.

Sending the shock for a retune before mounting it on the bike is not a major problem as long as I can find a reputable service center to do it...

That's assuming the "retune" introduces no new problems AND fixes the old ones. In my experience a good shock will have an adjustment range that caters for a range of frames and only need mild revalving for extreme cases. If the valving needs changing right out of the box for an average frame then I think the whole deal should be questioned. With that said, if this is the shock you decide on, I'd advise footing the shipping to send it to Steve at Vorsprung with your concerns/requirements (or maybe you can order it directly through them set up for you, they are an outlet for DVO). In my experience when it comes to suspension valving there aren't many people who really know what they're doing - including original product manufacturers.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

A lot of inputs, thanks! I am feeling slightly overwhelmed now...

if I sum up so far:
- the Vector seems to have some (debated) stiction issues but great hydraulic and range of adjustement
- the Jade needs a retune from stock (getting it done by Steve M would be great but the shipping and custom costs to Europe would be rather stiff)
- the RC4 is not available
- the DHX2 is expensive
- the Holy Grail is a tad expensive and a bit of a gamble, I hope to get some info from some french riders...
- the Stendec Storia could be an option, it is a bit of a gamble too...

What about the CCDB? from what I can read it has relatively low initial breakaway force, the range of adjustment is wide and it has been around for some time now so that good reliability would be expected.

The shock will be mounted on a Devinci Troy which has a leverage ratio starting at 3.2 and going almost straight to 2.5 for 140mm of travel. http://linkagedesign.blogspot.se/2016/04/devinci-troy-275-2016.html

 

[slimshady]

Así far as I know the Storia would be factory tuned to meet your frame's leverage curve and your riding style. I haven't seen anyone in the wild, but some reviews on German and Italian sites say it works pretty well.

 

[Udi]

Have you considered an air shock?

If you were considering the Holy Grail within budget, and you're already happy with your Float X2, I'd probably just cough up for the DHX2 and be done with it. The CCDB isn't particularly reliable (I thought I commented on this really recently, do a post search for me over the last week or two) and the DHX2 isn't the greatest thing in the world either, but if I had to pick I'd probably take the DHX2. Seems less prone to drastic failures than the CCDB from what I watched over the last QT summer season. BTW you can't make any "logical" conclusions like you just drew when it comes to the MTB industry - it's commonplace (amongst all brands) to sell a known-problematic product for 5 years+ without fixing anything.

My take is - you've got a frame with an excellent leverage curve, and you've picked likely the best air shock you could run in it. That combo should work damn well. Unless you have some dire need for a new shock, I would consider the option of holding onto your cash until a) you have more to spend and can choose confidently from anything, and b) until more reviews surface on that Fast shock. If an SS RC4 pops up in the meantime then grab it, and if you have the opportunity to ride any of these things yourself, do so and make up your own mind.

I don't see the point in wasting money on a compromise when your current setup is very good.
Are you on 650b? I've lost track of the luddite list, but if you aren't, then that will probably make a way bigger improvement in the bump absorption / force transfer stakes than upgrading shocks in a very good frame/shock combo as-is.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Have you considered an air shock?

Why not, I read great reviews of this RS Monarch on mtbr

The rest of your post makes sense, and yes I am on 650b wheels.
I am aware that my current setup is quite good, I don't need to upgrade for the sake of it. I am just interested in grabbing the last few procents of improvement a good coil shock should provide, mostly to satisfy my curiosity regarding the coil vs air debate. I will try to hold on my impulsive buying behaviour and watch the market!

 

[Sandwich]

@Udi- have you ever spent any time on an avalanche shock? I'm not trying to add to this conversation in particular, but back in the 90s they were the "holy grail", and after finally obtaining them, they were better than anything else on the market. the market has changed, however, and I'm interested to hear what you think. I don't think I'm as sensitive to rear dampers as you are, so your opinion is heavily weighted.

 

[Udi]

@Sandwich I've only ridden a few (DHS and Chubie), but funny you mention it because I vaguely thought to suggest them. I thought they were nicely made and really freely moving. I always thought most Avalanche stuff could do with firmer valving and more support, but it's probably not hard to ask for that. I thought the catch for this application was weight (and needing a larger spring), but it looks like the chubie claims to be 1lb/454g in 9.5x3 which is on par if accurate/true. From memory there are lightweight steel springs available in the 1.5" ID size (?) the Avy takes.

I really think their basic design is all a shock needs to be. Offroad coil shock design ~peaked long ago, and MTB coil shock design peaked soon after the platform valve / CVT stuff vanished. The small-shaft (2015) RC4 I suggest is really nothing more than a modern lightweight version of the Avy.

Both the CC and X2 have a bit too much damping at very low shaft speeds (a step backwards) and it was no coincidence as Fox hired an ex-CC engineer and inherited the same problems - albeit slightly improved. Twin tube dampers (in rebound) also have some disadvantages in offroad applications. Other shocks like the Jade, Revox, and Storia increased the shaft diameter to levels we should have left in the past, and having ridden multiples of all, I feel it's reflected in breakaway forces and friction. Shocks like the BOS Stoy had great potential (low friction chassis, 12mm shaft) but let down with questionable valving choices / piston design, and the new Ohlins shock shoots itself in the foot with small adjustment range and a limited HS adjuster - though I haven't ridden that one so judgement is reserved.

The Avy is simple conventional design, from memory is reliable/durable, and 12.5mm shaft is good too... I'd check the actual weight (vs. modern) then consider it a valid option.

 

[jonKranked]

@Sandwich I've only ridden a few (DHS and Chubie), but funny you mention it because I vaguely thought to suggest them. I thought they were nicely made and really freely moving. I always thought most Avalanche stuff could do with firmer valving and more support, but it's probably not hard to ask for that. I thought the catch for this application was weight (and needing a larger spring), but it looks like the chubie claims to be 1lb/454g in 9.5x3 which is on par if accurate/true. From memory there are lightweight steel springs available in the 1.5" ID size (?) the Avy takes.

I really think their basic design is all a shock needs to be. Offroad coil shock design ~peaked long ago, and MTB coil shock design peaked soon after the platform valve / CVT stuff vanished. The small-shaft (2015) RC4 I suggest is really nothing more than a modern lightweight version of the Avy.

Both the CC and X2 have a bit too much damping at very low shaft speeds (a step backwards) and it was no coincidence as Fox hired an ex-CC engineer and inherited the same problems - albeit slightly improved. Twin tube dampers (in rebound) also have some disadvantages in offroad applications. Other shocks like the Jade, Revox, and Storia increased the shaft diameter to levels we should have left in the past, and having ridden multiples of all, I feel it's reflected in breakaway forces and friction. Shocks like the BOS Stoy had great potential (low friction chassis, 12mm shaft) but let down with questionable valving choices / piston design, and the new Ohlins shock shoots itself in the foot with small adjustment range and a limited HS adjuster - though I haven't ridden that one so judgement is reserved.

The Avy is simple conventional design, from memory is reliable/durable, and 12.5mm shaft is good too... I'd check the actual weight (vs. modern) then consider it a valid option.

i've got an avy cart in my fox 40 and have been very happy with it. Craig (Avy) will tune it to your weight / bike / riding style, and seems to be happy to include whatever personal preferences you may have. he'll even retune stuff if you wanna put it on a different bike. i'd say certainly worth considering.

he also publishes instructions on how to work on everything yourself if you're so inclined.

 

[Sandwich]

cheers udi. that's my experience as well, largely. I think I've struggled for years with undersprung suspension, but I remember the shocks of his that I have run have been largely unremarkable, which means they are doing their job without being noticed. I remembed one Chubie or woodie that i had felt pretty dramatic between low speed and high speed damping. Meaning I could pedal and the bike was pretty firm, but diving into chunk it opened right up and was super comfortable. More of a tuning thing than a damper feature, but it was tuned pretty well.

 

[StiHacka]

Ah, this thread reminds me I still have an 8.5x2.5 Avy DHX5 in a drawer.
That said, I really like the DVO Topaz on my Balance. The stiction is minimal, the shock moves with a mild fart.

 

[kidwoo]

Anybody mess with the base valve piston on a dhx2?

And how much can you change in that collet assembly? I gots a shock that needs moar shimz.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

i'll

Ah, this thread reminds me I still have an 8.5x2.5 Avy DHX5 in a drawer.
That said, I really like the DVO Topaz on my Balance. The stiction is minimal, the shock moves with a mild fart.

I'll second the plug for the Topaz. this thing moves when I rest my hand on the saddle (at a fairly stiff initial LR). Plush when needed, and great midstroke support and bottoming resistance.

When I have some time, I will film the drop test Andre was showing, with this vs a couple other shocks, maybe even a coil, on the same bike.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Instead of starting a new thread, I thought I could go on here.
I found a 2015 RC4 with the wrong dimensions but I also found out that the guy who serviced and retuned my X2 could change some parts and shorten the shock to the desired length and stroke! All that for an acceptable price!
So I am doing it!

What I need is some advice on what brand of cheap springs has good tolerances so that I can find what rate I need before hopefully committing to a more expensive and lightweight version. I need a 500lbs over 2 inch stroke to start with. Fox's own spring have tolerances of 15% which results in something between 425lbs and 575lbs it feels bad, especially since I cannot measure the spring rate...
Cane creek and Manitou are easily available. Are they any better? What else can I consider if they are not?

 

[StiHacka]

Instead of starting a new thread, I thought I could go on here.
I found a 2015 RC4 with the wrong dimensions but I also found out that the guy who serviced and retuned my X2 could change some parts and shorten the shock to the desired length and stroke! All that for an acceptable price!
So I am doing it!

What I need is some advice on what brand of cheap springs has good tolerances so that I can find what rate I need before hopefully committing to a more expensive and lightweight version. I need a 500lbs over 2 inch stroke to start with. Fox's own spring have tolerances of 15% which results in something between 425lbs and 575lbs it feels bad, especially since I cannot measure the spring rate...
Cane creek and Manitou are easily available. Are they any better? What else can I consider if they are not?

Or, you could get a DHX2 for $299 on jenson.

 

[rollertoaster]

Of all the air shocks I've tried the topaz is the lowest stiction. I believe that to be a product of loose tolerances (not a bad thing). I've had mine apart a few times for retunes for various bikes. I will say this the difference between a topaz and jade is night and day in both stiction and dampening. I'm not sure I'll ever be truly satisfied with an air spring again after riding coils on my trails bikes.

i'll


I'll second the plug for the Topaz. this thing moves when I rest my hand on the saddle (at a fairly stiff initial LR). Plush when needed, and great midstroke support and bottoming resistance.

When I have some time, I will film the drop test Andre was showing, with this vs a couple other shocks, maybe even a coil, on the same bike.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Or, you could get a DHX2 for $299 on jenson.

Yes thanks but I would still need to modify the DHX2...

My question remains: what brand has trustable rate on their cheap steel spring?

 

[Udi]

trustable rate

cheap steel spring

lol

 

[Happymtb.fr]

A short one liner from @Udi ???
Are you drunk?

 

[troy]

Not sure where did You get those 15% from, but usually steel spring spring rate varies within ~3%, the harder the spring the bigger the difference is obviously but it is not 425 vs 575 lbs/in ffs.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

I am quite sure I red it on fox''s old website but I cannot find it again. I just found this article:
http://www.peterverdone.com/springs-cause-its-spring/

The distribution for these plus minus 15% is most certainly gaussian so that there is low chance to get a spring with a rate at the limits of the tolerances but that is still a gamble for everyone who cannot measure their springs.

 

[troy]

Well, maybe if he knew what he was doing, he wouldn't spread such BS. Just ignore the 1st 0-0.25" of travel and compare inch by inch sections of the springs. For example 0.5"-1.5" or 0.75"-1.75" You will get numbers very close to the labeled spring rate.

 

[Kurt_80]

Can anyone confirm the ID of a Jade spring? I've read 36.5mm, but want to double check.

Cheers

 

[troy]

Can anyone confirm the ID of a Jade spring? I've read 36.5mm, but want to double check.

Cheers

 

[Kurt_80]

View attachment 128089

Thanks Troy, this may have prevented a pointless purchase.

How much flexibility is there in the dimensions? Could a Ti Manitou spring (36.5mm ID) fit on a Jade at 34.5mm ID?

 

[troy]

Thanks Troy, this may have prevented a pointless purchase.

How much flexibility is there in the dimensions? Could a Ti Manitou spring (36.5mm ID) fit on a Jade at 34.5mm ID?

Well, not much. 2mm is a huge gap, although some delrin/pom washer/ring would solve that. More important thing is - what is the OD of that spring?

 

[Kurt_80]

Looks like Manitou OD is 54mm, so I'm guessing 3.6mm clearance from the piggyback. Will that be enough? Seems like it might be too tight.

That diagram you posted before... Is that current? I've found a bunch of sites that specify DVO coil spring ID to be 36.5mm.

http://www.bikeman.com/RS7111.html
https://www.ti-springs.com/product/performance-shock-spring-bearing
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DVO-Jade-Coil-Rear-Shock-Coil-Spring-Sold-Seperately-8-5x2-5-215x63-/182689113805
https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=70205

Of course, they could all be cut and pasting from each other, but even for the bike industry that's a bit much.

 

[Swarz]

Hello,

I will share my experience with DVO jade 222x68mm that I bought recently. There are just few shallow reviews about this shock on internet and also there were said some untrue information in this thread.

It replaced my RS Deluxe 230x65mm on my Rock Machine Blizzard enduro bike with 160mm travel and VPP suspension. I have used offset bushings to get 227mm e2e measurement and calculated the result levarge ratio in Linkage x3 software (www.bikechecker.com). With 3mm shorter eye to eye, the leverage is a bit more progressive with some less regressive curve in the beginning of wheel travel, but nothing big. Kinematics are still great for my riding. Lev. ratio 2.3 - 2.6 - 1.7. Graph included in attachement.

My weight is 90 - 92kg fully kitted, depends on a day (something more than 200lbs). So I got 500lbs/inch spring which gives me 18mm-18.5mm sag (26-27%). I got Cane Creek Valt 2.75 that fits perfectly.
I started riding with all compression knobs open and managed to get decent low speed rebound with just slight but manageable rebound overshoot with 15 clicks from closed. High speed rebound felt absolutely spot on. Riding brake bumps and all kind of terrain imperfections were absolutely sweet to that extent that you really don't care for brake bumps everywhere. You just go as fast as you can handle. It felt really fun I never experienced that feeling of "magic carpet" on my bicycles. I was a bit worried about the low speed rebound however, because when I was getting back to my ride height after pump like bumps and such I was feeling that I had to work more with the legs than with RS deluxe. Simply put, chassis low speed action was not 100% and the suspension was overshooting a bit in both directions (compression and rebound). I started playing with compression setting with bracketing tuning style so I turned high speed to max and went for ride. It was very harsh ride on fast hard impacts so I backed HS to half. Went for another ride (it was all day bikepark riding so tuning was quick and effective) - still a bit harsh. Then I backed a bit more and went for 9 clicks for HS compression which is 1.5 turns of total 4 turns when it is fully closed. That was feeling Ok so I started fiddling with LS knob. I went for fully closed which is 25 clicks. Chassis stability was great and no overshoot in rebound or compression but compliance was not good. After I cut LS compression by half. So I ended on 12-13 clicks that was very good. Still good low speed stability and relatively good bump compliance. Probably on the harsher side but I really like it for the bikepark terrain I usually ride that includes hard packed tracks with many jumps, pumping lines, berms, jumps 6 feet to flat and such. I will probably ease compression for natural gnarly terrain. But for that what I ride I feel it is close to subjectively perfect setup.
What was said that compression adjusters doesn't have effect that is not true. Your damper was either not working properly (probably some air in it, mine had also and was new) or you don't understand that in order to achieve som degree of LS damping, you must add some preload to the compression stack via HS adjuster. For start, it is best step to turn it fully closed and then opening it until level of harshness is acceptable. Then you should start fiddling with LS adjuster.

Service is super easy and you don't need special tools, just make sure before you start if you have really big sized spanner, mine was small for bladder retainer.

 

[Swarz]

Sorry I included just the leverage graph with old shock. See the Leverage curve of bike with new shock if you are interested

 

[StiHacka]

Desperate bots are desperate.

 

[Swarz]

I'm sorry but you think I'm internet bot ?

 

[johnbryanpeters]

I'm sorry but you think I'm internet bot ?

In general, the rabble decide that any new poster is a bot...

 

[StiHacka]

In general, the rabble decide that any new poster is a bot...

And we are 99.9% correct, just like about this piece of artificial negligence.

 

[rockofullr]

And we are 99.9% correct, just like about this piece of artificial negligence.

There's no way that's a bot. Perhaps spamming the same wall of text to every site with a DVO Jade thread though.