[bdamschen]

What's funny is how even with no products, their website is more useful and informative than any other suspension manufacturer.

And they aren't gonna have production units "in the next few months". Prototypes only for now.

You guys are killing me with the hype here. No product = no care. How can anyone decide how awesome a company if they've never seen their product?

As far as useful information- I don't know about the rest of the suspension manufacturers out there, but fox has plenty of information on how to set sag and tune your suspension. It's not rocket science and a youtube video doesn't make a company great.

 

[IH8Rice]

there has to be some "hype" before a company releases a product. do you expect them to have a product/s already manufactured and expect to sell them without some knowledge of said product?

 

[Kanye West]

I think people here need to take some marketing classes or something. Or work in sales for a while.

 

[ianjenn]

What's funny is how even with no products, their website is more useful and informative than any other suspension manufacturer.

And they aren't gonna have production units "in the next few months". Prototypes only for now.

The items they are getting will look exactly like a production unit. Wether its hand assembled here in the USA or made oversees. Want to get a look at this thing see how it looks.

 

[marshalolson]

I think people here need to take some marketing classes or something. Or work in sales for a while.

you can hype a product pretty effectively, but hyping a brand can be dangerous for the brand's long term durability.

Hype always fades.

with a product, you just launch a new model. when a brand's hype fades because the initial offering does not live up to unrealistically high expectations, you need to create a new brand.

you need to ESTABLISH a brand thru products and presentation.

 

[bdamschen]

there has to be some "hype" before a company releases a product. do you expect them to have a product/s already manufactured and expect to sell them without some knowledge of said product?

Prototypes at least. At this point, I couldn't give a big flying f**k about their website or awesome team van or tuning tips because there's no product for me to look at. I can understand if they hype all this stuff up for investor types, but why start marketing yourself to the public if you have nothing to show for it but the work of their graphic designer/web master?

 

[b.utters]

I just had a look over their website and so far it inspires confidence that they will produce a good product. They know what people want and how to provide it.

 

[wiscodh]

Prototypes at least. At this point, I couldn't give a big flying f**k about their website or awesome team van or tuning tips because there's no product for me to look at. I can understand if they hype all this stuff up for investor types, but why start marketing yourself to the public if you have nothing to show for it but the work of their graphic designer/web master?

create hype. create a want. create a customer base based on the hype. Helps with a good launch.

http://www.amazon.com/The-100-Startup-Reinvent-Living/dp/0307951529

the author of this book does a good job of explaning why, and how to create a great launch. creation of hype is a big one. Look at kickstarter, its all hype. Seems like that is what the people want. Maybe not what YOU want.

 

[bdamschen]

create hype. create a want. create a customer base based on the hype. Helps with a good launch.

http://www.amazon.com/The-100-Startup-Reinvent-Living/dp/0307951529

the author of this book does a good job of explaning why, and how to create a great launch. creation of hype is a big one. Look at kickstarter, its all hype. Seems like that is what the people want. Maybe not what YOU want.

Kickstarter works well because it's people hyping ideas and technologies that no one has created before. This is another suspension company battling for your attention against Fox, Rockshox, Marzocchi, Manitou, X-Fusion, Elka, Boss, Suntour, etc. The idea is already out there and well executed. The only way to set your self apart is to do it for cheaper with better quality. A website and a team van give no hint as to price or quality.

 

[Steve M]

Kickstarter works well because it's people hyping ideas and technologies that no one has created before. This is another suspension company battling for your attention against Fox, Rockshox, Marzocchi, Manitou, X-Fusion, Elka, Boss, Suntour, etc. The idea is already out there and well executed. The only way to set your self apart is to do it for cheaper with better quality. A website and a team van give no hint as to price or quality.

While I agree with what you're saying, nothing you're saying contradicts what wiscodh has pointed out. He is talking about business/sales methodology, you are talking about actual product quality - which as you say, is not necessarily related to the marketing.

However, it should be noted that so far, DVO haven't publicly said anything particularly silly or unrealistic, and given their background, I don't think it's unreasonable to be optimistic/hopeful about what they're likely to come up with.

 

[dilzy]

If they are going to CNC every part from billet on this thing it is going to cost $$$$$$!

The inners and outers you finish machine from extrusion. Clamps and feet aren't that bigger machining job, look at the price Hope pumps out billet cnc'd stuff for these days, machine time is becoming cheaper.

 

[descente]

jumping into an already saturated market never seems like the best idea. making cool bike stuff is becoming so played out...

how many DH forks do you think people actually buy? i know the sport is growing...but anyone who has actually spent time in sales in the BICYCLE industry (not just tucked away at the local gravity shop) knows that DH/gravity/FR makes up a small portion of the total overall sales, and a pretty pathetic portion of it at that.
without nailing OEM accounts (good luck) i think they are going to have a tough road. luckily, they have the manufacturing power of Suntour to back them up correct? that should at least give them a minor cost advantage among their sea of disadvantages (compared to Fox, SRAM et al).

i think what they are doing is rad, and i love the latest marzocchi stuff they had a huge hand in. i just fail to see the logic in how they actually plan to turn a realistic profit, when so many others are trying as well...marketing is only less than half the battle. and lets face it, the big two are killing it. did anyone else get a free ride from a raptor at dust demo? and fully kitted out bikes to ride featuring the latest greatest CTD (which feels exactly the same as before, just noisier)? i don't see them taking over, no matter how good it is on paper and in the dirt. it will just be sniper sales to the fringe (of an already fringe market) that even knows about them. and i also really hope they prove me wrong!

 

[Tomasz]

There is no cost advantage over the big two by using Suntour, as I assume both SRAM and Fox use Taiwanese contract manufacturers as well.

However, by utilizing their existing engineering knowledge and relationship with Suntour, DVO's capital expenditure should be extraordinarily low. With little (relatively little) up front capital required, the pressure to turn a quick profit is significantly lessened, and DVO can play for a longer game. They wouldn't require quick OEM deals, because they are carrying so little debt.

While the DH market may not account for a large portion of sales, it does provide excellent visibility to the mass XC and AM consumers.

Everything above is pure navel gazing and speculation, of course. I have no inside knowledge of DVO's business plan or marketing concept.

 

[iRider]

i don't see them taking over, no matter how good it is on paper and in the dirt.

Cane Creek is the perfect example of how a superior product can take off even w/o a lot of hype, marketing etc.
So I think there is a chance that DVO can be successful, however they have to hit the nail on the head first try.

 

[no skid marks]

What about Avalanche shocks. They've been brilliant for years, without any hype marketing, and probably not the huge sales they should've got.
Unfortunatly, customer talk and parroting of hype, is worth a huge deal as far as sales go with MTB products IMO. Sad but true.

 

[norbar]

you can hype a product pretty effectively, but hyping a brand can be dangerous for the brand's long term durability.

Hype always fades.

with a product, you just launch a new model. when a brand's hype fades because the initial offering does not live up to unrealistically high expectations, you need to create a new brand.

you need to ESTABLISH a brand thru products and presentation.

I hope you don't work anywhere close to marketing. Brand hype will sell you anything and as long as you manage it it will sell you anything you want. Your products have to be complete crap to overtake the hype. Remember how long into the I have my 3rd evil crack thing people still ate the hype?

 

[General Lee]

"We also employed a lot of other software to analyze structures, FEA analysis, modeling, surfacing, 3D printing, as well as host of other things that only engineers with a masters degree can explain."

Internet meet guy with masturz, guy with masturz meet internet.

 

[djjohnr]

without nailing OEM accounts (good luck) i think they are going to have a tough road.

I'm assuming that's exactly what their plan is. The management team ran Marzocchi USA and should have plenty of experience in the OEM market, as does their manufacturer.

Three main competitors in a niche market isn't even close to saturation; spend some time looking at markets like disk drives if you want to know what saturation looks like.

 

[dilzy]

"We also employed a lot of other software to analyze structures, FEA analysis, modeling, surfacing, 3D printing, as well as host of other things that only engineers with a masters degree can explain."

Internet meet guy with masturz, guy with masturz meet internet.

Haha I don't recall seeing that. A 2nd year student can explain FEA, getting reliable results is another matter and there's plenty of overpaid people still getting it wrong. If your using the inbuilt FEA package in say solid works, chances are your getting it very wrong indeed.

It does worry me when Bryan says that 'USD are better in bending but worse in torsion'...torsional flex at the dropout is just opposing longitudinal bending of the fork tubes. You can use an axle with a solid interface ala hexlock, or a fork bridge to stop the differential movement of the fork tubes. Looking at their renders, they don't SEEM to have a hexlock type arrangement, but I wait to see.

 

[atrokz]

"We also employed a lot of other software to analyze structures, FEA analysis, modeling, surfacing, 3D printing, as well as host of other things that only engineers with a masters degree can explain."

.

Anyone else find this statement incredibly ignorant and uneducated?


Gen Lee, was it one of the DVO guys who spewed that bull****?

 

[General Lee]

Anyone else find this statement incredibly ignorant and uneducated?


Gen Lee, was it one of the DVO guys who spewed that bull****?

http://www.dvosuspension.com/2012/06/building-the-dvo-headquarters/

I think you're overstating it a bit though. Clearly not the best choice of phrase for the forum crowd, but I think the intention was more to demonstrate they are actually designing their own fork and not just slapping their name on something off of Suntour's shelf. For a website put together so quickly there is actually a lot of good information. . . but the masters comment is still funny.

 

[atrokz]

Its just an incredibly false statement. Only two of the jobs he listed really requires a degree, let alone a masters. Silly thing to say, in an attempt to impress kids or defer his inability to explain his product well.

 

[Raingauge]

Isn't Suntour making their own DH fork? I thought I saw it on Tippies bike at a few races this summer.

 

[Tomasz]

Yep yep.

 

[Craig Seekins]

What about Avalanche shocks. They've been brilliant for years, without any hype marketing, and probably not the huge sales they should've got.
Unfortunatly, customer talk and parroting of hype, is worth a huge deal as far as sales go with MTB products IMO. Sad but true.

Yes, just read through their website, looks like they agree with our philosophy and are going to reinforce our technology which we pioneered over 30 years ago.

Like our removable compression base valve(what they call a "Bottom Loader") on our DHF and MTN forks:

Our tapered shimmed/adjustable valve stack on the high/low speed adjuster base valve, which we originally used in Motocross forks 1993 and later fitted to our MTN8 fork in 2000.

Piston design and shim stacks are the key to good suspension design and performance, we have been designing and improving our pistons, shim stacks and midvalves for 30 years. Shown below are the 85cc MX piston designs which evolved into our DHF and 20 mm cartridge systems, MX race proven and now a MTB damper standard.

We still feel that upside down or so called inverted forks are the best design for MTB and MX front suspensions and we are committed to this technology inspite of the perceived misconceptions of the inverted design. You will see an improved lighter version of our upside down fork in the near future with the indirect help of marketing and education from the reinsertion of this technology by the leading suspension companies.

Evolution, not reinvention of the wheel. Slow and steady movement forward is the key to improvement!

 

[boogenman]

LOLZ

 

[Sandwich]

You will see an improved lighter version of our upside down fork in the near future with the indirect help of marketing and education from the reinsertion of this technology by the leading suspension companies.

so are you making a lighter chassis'd avy fork? maybe with less offset and lighter weight?

 

[Craig Seekins]

so are you making a lighter chassis'd avy fork? maybe with less offset and lighter weight?

Yes, but we need to let the cards play out and see what the world accepts for weight, offset, conformance to standards and damper design vs strength and performance.

 

[djjohnr]

Craig - any plans to expand the AVA Advantage cartridge kits to include lower travel forks (ie 100-150mm)? I find that lower travel forks tend to get the least adjustable suspension dampers.

 

[Deano]

Yes, but we need to let the cards play out and see what the world accepts for weight, offset, conformance to standards and damper design vs strength and performance.

Weightwise, no more then the standard 3kg or so for most modern forks, 10% on top, at the very most

As for standards, the normal boxxer/fox direct mount, and for brakes post mount thats about it

 

[bullcrew]

Weightwise, no more then the standard 3kg or so for most modern forks, 10% on top, at the very most

As for standards, the normal boxxer/fox direct mount, and for brakes post mount thats about it

Fox was off when I weighed it and marzocchi was always 1/2lb heavier a cross the board on the forks from advertised weight. sat there a d weighed them at marzocchi a couple times...

I say a real world weight with full oil ready to ride by all manufacturers, its like the peak power advertised in electronics vs RMS.
Boxxer has been the truest so far as far as weight for the big 3 Companies cant comment on dorado never weighed one....


Inverted and what Deano said...

 

[IH8Rice]

and marzocchi was always 1/2lb heavier a cross the board on the forks from advertised weight.

wow. my 888 was 38grams heavier then advertised weight. its now 220 grams heavier because of all the extra oil.
my 55 was about a 1/4lb heavier then advertised though

 

[bullcrew]

When I sat at marzocchi I weighed the forks this was 2009 and a cross the board they were all (888 models and 66) almost exactly 1/2 lb heavier then I weighed a 2011 again was close t the 1/3 mark over...my fox was the same way it was around 150+ heavier I think its weighed with medium spring though versus heavier spring like a lot of bikes are weighed medium for a majority of the buyers fitment..

Most manufacturers shoot for the more positive numbers, if they weigh 20 units they go for the best weight or within 5 versus averaging them... sometimes they average if a light unit comes through as it works better ie tire companies do this a lot....I have only seen a handfull of tires under claimed weight but a TON above by a fair bit....


So if marzocchi is close to claimed weight now then right on, good to see someone that's confident in their products...I haven't weighed one in a bit so it might be different as of recent but my fox is a 2012 and was OFF......

Yeah extra oil will do it a little lol, my avy cart is 200g heavier in the fox but for performance reasons I don't mind its good weight.
Like dh casings for nasty stuff the weight far outweighs the extra heft...

 

[Craig Seekins]

Weightwise, no more then the standard 3kg or so for most modern forks, 10% on top, at the very most

As for standards, the normal boxxer/fox direct mount, and for brakes post mount thats about it

I will make a comment about the weight:

Some of the original inverted designs got a bad reputation because of the lack of stiffness in order to save weight. When we started making our DHS/Piggyback shocks everyone said they were too heavy, now our shock is the same size and weight as a Fox RC4. Performance and durability drove designs to a larger size and weight and became generally the accepted norm. We believe that forks have generally started to migrate this way too, and when this becomes the norm we will jump back into the chassis market again. For now we are satisfied making cartridges to improve the rest of the forks out there.

 

[UiUiUiUi]

i always loved my DHF8 forks, and you provided great service even over the big pond... the only downside of the fork was they twisted way too easy!
get that and weight fixed and i will be back on your forks craig

 

[Craig Seekins]

i always loved my DHF8 forks, and you provided great service even over the big pond... the only downside of the fork was they twisted way too easy!
get that and weight fixed and i will be back on your forks craig

Creaking, twisting, flexible, sticky, binding all issues related to weight. Even stanchion wear is related to ovalized tubes bending due to lack of wall thickness which causes binding as they pass though the bushings. The bottom line in performance is the right balance of weight and damping. No easy answers here, keep moving forward or accept all the issues associated with the result of saving weight.

 

[UiUiUiUi]

Creaking, twisting, flexible, sticky, binding all issues related to weight. Even stanchion wear is related to ovalized tubes bending due to lack of wall thickness which causes binding as they pass though the bushings. The bottom line in performance is the right balance of weight and damping. No easy answers here, keep moving forward or except all the issues associated with the result of saving weight.

never claimed your job is easy
but you always delivered, at least for me you did!

 

[Lelandjt]

It seems like a carbon monocoque lower crown and legs with a larger than 20mm non-round axle are the keys to making a stiff, light inverted fork. Too bad the Maverick DUC36 never saw the light of day.

 

[IH8Rice]

id love to try a Foes XTD with a different damper in it.

 

[EVRAC]

It seems like a carbon monocoque lower crown and legs with a larger than 20mm non-round axle are the keys to making a stiff, light inverted fork. Too bad the Maverick DUC36 never saw the light of day.

QFT.

One-piece carbon outer/upper legs, lower crown, and steerer.
Almost impossible to make, but would sure be sweet.

Then add a one-piece (Enve) bar/stem/upper crown.

Convert 7 pieces to 2 and save about 12 bolts.