[dilzy]

Sigh, I just lost all confidence.."Orifice dampers are not speed sensitive"..."latest version of Solid works"-(no stand alone fea package like ANSYS or ABAQUS.

Seriously, orifice dampers are not speed sensitive, out of the mouths of babes and men. I say unto you all now that their forks will be rubbish, they got my hopes up and dashed them ever so quickly.

Maybe when Marzocchi goes broke, Craig can do us all a favour and buy their latest lower and crown tooling and start making the standard 888s with his cartridge.

 

[Verskis]

Sigh, I just lost all confidence.."Orifice dampers are not speed sensitive"..."latest version of Solid works"-(no stand alone fea package like ANSYS or ABAQUS.

Seriously, orifice dampers are not speed sensitive, out of the mouths of babes and men. I say unto you all now that their forks will be rubbish, they got my hopes up and dashed them ever so quickly.

Maybe when Marzocchi goes broke, Craig can do us all a favour and buy their latest lower and crown tooling and start making the standard 888s with his cartridge.

Orifice dampers definitely are speed sensitive. What else would they be, position sensitive?

First cycle an orifice damper very slowly and it will give little resistance, then give it a blow with a hammer or something and it will give much higher counter force. There's even a good chance the orifice will reach it's maximum flow and will choke. Now if that's not speed sensitive, then what is?
It's not optimal characteristic for a shock absorber, the damping effect will grow too fast with increasing velocity, but it is speed sensitive.
The shim-stack-restricted bypass flow channels will make the damping more linear, but keeps the speed sensitiveness.

 

[dilzy]

Orifice dampers definitely are speed sensitive. What else would they be, position sensitive?

First cycle an orifice damper very slowly and it will give little resistance, then give it a blow with a hammer or something and it will give much higher counter force. There's even a good chance the orifice will reach it's maximum flow and will choke. Now if that's not speed sensitive, then what is?
It's not optimal characteristic for a shock absorber, the damping effect will grow too fast with increasing velocity, but it is speed sensitive.
The shim-stack-restricted bypass flow channels will make the damping more linear, but keeps the speed sensitiveness.

Maybe you miss-understood my post sorry, I'm saying yes absolutely orifice dampers are speed sensitive, it's DVO who claim they aren't.

 

[Verskis]

Maybe you miss-understood my post sorry, I'm saying yes absolutely orifice dampers are speed sensitive, it's DVO who claim they aren't.

Alright, my bad.

 

[iRider]

We believe that forks have generally started to migrate this way too, and when this becomes the norm we will jump back into the chassis market again. For now we are satisfied making cartridges to improve the rest of the forks out there.

But please don't do the BOS thing and stop selling cartridges to boost your fork sales.

 

[Sandwich]

QFT.

One-piece carbon outer/upper legs, lower crown, and steerer.
Almost impossible to make, but would sure be sweet.

Then add a one-piece (Enve) bar/stem/upper crown.

Convert 7 pieces to 2 and save about 12 bolts.

that's one use of teh carbonz that has a shedload of promise, I think. The duc36 was a cool idea, but it's too bad maverick was pushing it.

Take avy internals and pair with a company that has great carbon fiber experience...end up with a great fork.

 

[norbar]

that's one use of teh carbonz that has a shedload of promise, I think. The duc36 was a cool idea, but it's too bad maverick was pushing it.

Take avy internals and pair with a company that has great carbon fiber experience...end up with a great fork.

Enve Avalanche? That would be sweet, though it would probably cost more than the GDP of China

 

[Kanye West]

Sigh, I just lost all confidence.."Orifice dampers are not speed sensitive"..."latest version of Solid works"-(no stand alone fea package like ANSYS or ABAQUS.

Seriously, orifice dampers are not speed sensitive, out of the mouths of babes and men. I say unto you all now that their forks will be rubbish, they got my hopes up and dashed them ever so quickly.

Maybe when Marzocchi goes broke, Craig can do us all a favour and buy their latest lower and crown tooling and start making the standard 888s with his cartridge.

I guarantee there is LOTS of software being used in the process that they're not filling you in about. You're on a need-to-know basis, and right now, you don't need to know.

Orifice dampers really don't have any sensitivity to speed if you think about it - they just lock. That's their only function. They don't have any mechanism to modulate the flow past that one choke point, so they don't have any sensitivity to...well, anything. Viscosity maybe, but they're still non-reactive. That is what they're getting at. Perhaps "non-reactive" would be a better phrase. Would that please you and make you all warm in the deep sub-cockles of your heart?

Tooling for molds is just about always proprietary to the client, regardless of the facility they reside in. Those types of things are not for sale, except by Marzocchi themselves. And they're not likely to ever sell that, even if they were to ever liquidate. And Craig is not likely to ever want to deal with casting lowers overseas and maintaining QC on them, or make the huge investment to start casting them in-house.

 

[Verskis]

Orifice dampers really don't have any sensitivity to speed if you think about it - they just lock. That's their only function. They don't have any mechanism to modulate the flow past that one choke point, so they don't have any sensitivity to...well, anything. Viscosity maybe, but they're still non-reactive. That is what they're getting at. Perhaps "non-reactive" would be a better phrase.

Up until the choke point they are speed sensitive. It's not like an orifice will choke right when the shock starts moving, unless it's ridiculously small orifice or really harsh impact.

 

[Kanye West]

The extremely narrow window of shafts speeds in which an orifice damper provides an actual damping coefficient (and not just a hydraulic lock) is basically negligible. It's borderline useless in that application, unless it's a series of ports meant to work as something position sensitive. In that case, the overall cross section of flow area changes (generally decreases as the ports are passed).

Regardless, to call a fixed-orifice damper speed sensitive when also discussing a large-orifice/shim damping mechanism would be silly and misleading.

 

[Jm_]

Yep, looks like they reversed engineered the Avy stuff. I don't think there's any patent on the standard motoX stuff, but if they can do it at a good pricepoint, it might sell. The chassi will make or break them at that point with a decent damper....just like Manitou and others...

 

[gemini2k]

Yep, looks like they reversed engineered the Avy stuff. I don't think there's any patent on the standard motoX stuff, but if they can do it at a good pricepoint, it might sell. The chassi will make or break them at that point with a decent damper....just like Manitou and others...

I can tell you they looked at a lot of other products, but when he hoped on my avy 888 it was the first avy product he had seen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1b1n_0X-fw0

 

[gemini2k]

Yep, looks like they reversed engineered the Avy stuff. I don't think there's any patent on the standard motoX stuff, but if they can do it at a good pricepoint, it might sell. The chassi will make or break them at that point with a decent damper....just like Manitou and others...

 

[bullcrew]

I can tell you they looked at a lot of other products, but when he hoped on my avy 888 it was the first avy product he had seen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1b1n_0X-fw0

Maybe him but the rest are more than aware of avalanche as well as being one of the
last guys out there aside of manitou that's been saying that inverted is still a better way. Guaranteed they did there homework any good company would have and Craig's exploded views are a roadmap for engineers to look at.

So maybe the first he has seen in person himself but not the first time he has seen avalanche...not if he's been doing his homework on others out there. Any smart company would take a look at what's going on, marzocchi guys guaranteed are aware of a cartridge to there 888s and 66s.

Not a pi$$ing match but having been in manufacturing I've seen a lot of competitors stuff in in their competitors hands as well as known a lot to call the competitors to feel them out or question them.

Either way doesnt change the fact that this will be good to see, I like Ronnie and the other guys are good people so I do wish them the best its not a solid economic time to start but I think they have what it takes...

 

[no skid marks]

I would highly doubt that Marzocchi(these guys then right?)didn't look at the Avy cart before making the EVO damper.
They should just hire Craig from Avy, or license his design.
I hope that maxle looking axle in that vid is just a decoy.

 

[troy]

Looks like they will put there tapered steer tube and grooved upper tubes to reduce fork binding?

 

[Jm_]

I can tell you they looked at a lot of other products, but when he hoped on my avy 888 it was the first avy product he had seen.

Um, it looks like the "looks like" part of my post blew past you? Even though it looks extremely similar to the avalanche stuff, I also didn't outright say it was either...

 

[Ronnie Dilan]

Great to see all of the comments and curiosity regarding DVO suspension. If anyone has questions please feel free to ask me, I will do my best to answer them without getting myself into any trouble with Bryson.

Ronnie

 

[bullcrew]

Great to see all of the comments and curiosity regarding DVO suspension. If anyone has questions please feel free to ask me, I will do my best to answer them without getting myself into any trouble with Bryson.

Ronnie

Is the datsun z car the best thing ever made.....lol good to see you chime in.

 

[epic]

OK guys, honest question here. Lefty forks are really good at not flexing and they are really light. Why doesn't somebody make a DH fork with the lefty needle-bearing design. Leftyx2 would be uber-stiff, wouldn't it?

 

[IH8Rice]

OK guys, honest question here. Lefty forks are really good at not flexing and they are really light. Why doesn't somebody make a DH fork with the lefty needle-bearing design. Leftyx2 would be uber-stiff, wouldn't it?

i would assume no one else has done it is because they have it patented?

 

[Sandwich]

OK guys, honest question here. Lefty forks are really good at not flexing and they are really light. Why doesn't somebody make a DH fork with the lefty needle-bearing design. Leftyx2 would be uber-stiff, wouldn't it?

leftys are really stiff, but the way the bearings work prevents them from being really long. I imagine it possibly could be done, but the length of the bearing races for the amount of travel would be difficult to negotiate. I've almost wondered if they could do two separate sliding surfaces between two legs, but another part of the problem has been the damper, which has generally been a little iffy at best.

I run a lefty, and it's a great fork, but only 130mm of travel, and that's fine with me.

 

[epic]

i would assume no one else has done it is because they have it patented?

Did the Moto fork have the needle bearings? I've never ridden one, I wonder what short-coming it had that made them abandon it.

 

[Tetreault]

OK guys, honest question here. Lefty forks are really good at not flexing and they are really light. Why doesn't somebody make a DH fork with the lefty needle-bearing design. Leftyx2 would be uber-stiff, wouldn't it?

This got me looking at it in another way....

cannondale has licensed different brand internals to go with their chassis, so why don't they make a "dually" accompanied with another brands internals (fox, avy, ect) seems like it would potentially fly off the shelf like hot cakes, cannondale should have looked into this instead of a moto division years ago.

 

[Ronnie Dilan]

Is the datsun z car the best thing ever made.....lol good to see you chime in.

Yes the Datsun Z is the best car EVER made...lol. How aer you doing dude? you ever make it back to Cali or are you still in Idaho with the family?

 

[bullcrew]

Yes the Datsun Z is the best car EVER made...lol. How aer you doing dude? you ever make it back to Cali or are you still in Idaho with the family?

Yeah back in San Diego , glad to be back....hate cold weather.
Family is good kids are great.

Glad to see you doing something where there's going to be more control and design from a in the pits kind of mentality vs the big 3 and pro riders who could ride a q-tip faster than most....
Good to see you chime in here, wish you guys the best of luck....

(How's the "Z" coming along, you need to get it on "pimp my ride" and have some turn tables installed in the rear....)

 

[Ronnie Dilan]

I would highly doubt that Marzocchi(these guys then right?)didn't look at the Avy cart before making the EVO damper.
They should just hire Craig from Avy, or license his design.
I hope that maxle looking axle in that vid is just a decoy.[/QUOTE

I am curious of exactly what we would need to license from Craig to design a damper? just asking to keep things clear through all of the post that I have read. Are you suggesting that we design a chassis and use his damper system?


Ronnie

 

[bullcrew]

I would highly doubt that Marzocchi(these guys then right?)didn't look at the Avy cart before making the EVO damper.
They should just hire Craig from Avy, or license his design.
I hope that maxle looking axle in that vid is just a decoy.[/QUOTE

I am curious of exactly what we would need to license from Craig to design a damper? just asking to keep things clear through all of the post that I have read. Are you suggesting that we design a chassis and use his damper system?


Ronnie

I think there was a verbiage somewhere that said patent pending on bottom out design in which craig has been using for 20+ years or more...
In think what's going to happen is all the big players have been trying to introduce new ways of doing things and essentially reinvent the wheel. Craig has stayed the course with his designs for mx and mtb for YEARS as well as been saying that inverted is still the best for small bump, traction and handling for years. So when a company comes in with the inverted and or I ternals and design similar to his there going to be scrutiny.


Just a thought....

Either way congrats on the new venture, good to see you guys back in control...

 

[no skid marks]

I would highly doubt that Marzocchi(these guys then right?)didn't look at the Avy cart before making the EVO damper.
They should just hire Craig from Avy, or license his design.
I hope that maxle looking axle in that vid is just a decoy.[/QUOTE

I am curious of exactly what we would need to license from Craig to design a damper? just asking to keep things clear through all of the post that I have read. Are you suggesting that we design a chassis and use his damper system?


Ronnie

Craig has a wealth of knowledge, and I just felt DVO could do well with it, and his dampers are good, be easy and possibly cheaper to work with Craig than just try to design around his carts to be different for the sake of it. Wasn't intending to imply too much. It would seem the 888evo cart had at least some inspiration from the avy one, could just be coincidence like unrelated animals in different countries that look the same, there is only so many ways to skin a cat.
The EVO damper is great, so I'm sure whatever DVO comes up with will be great. I would be very interested to see what Craig could do with a bit more support though, I won't lie about that, and it's the main reason for my comment.

 

[Lelandjt]

Hey Ronnie, can't wait to play with these next year as I'm assuming you guys will still have a relationship with Santiago. You know what I'm waiting to hear: air spring!
Yes, I was the only one who wanted to run air in the current 888s but I also didn't have to swap springs around to be happy. The 888evo tuning thread is 99% "what spring should I use, where can I get it?"

 

[Transcend]

Yes the Datsun Z is the best car EVER made...lol.

I dunno, that Fiat 500 ride we did made it seem like the most FUN car ever. Drives like a go kart, jumps like a trophy truck, throws hamburgers at windows like a... nevermind.

 

[no skid marks]

Hybrid air/coil gets my vote.

 

[gemini2k]

Ronnie, save yourself now, DO NOT post on RM.

 

[Ronnie Dilan]

Craig has a wealth of knowledge, and I just felt DVO could do well with it, and his dampers are good, be easy and possibly cheaper to work with Craig than just try to design around his carts to be different for the sake of it. Wasn't intending to imply too much. It would seem the 888evo cart had at least some inspiration from the avy one, could just be coincidence like unrelated animals in different countries that look the same, there is only so many ways to skin a cat.
The EVO damper is great, so I'm sure whatever DVO comes up with will be great. I would be very interested to see what Craig could do with a bit more support though, I won't lie about that, and it's the main reason for my comment.

I agree with you on Craig having some pretty good damper systems. I think everyone will be pretty surprised with the differences and the tuning options that DVO will offer, we haven't really posted any diagrams of our damper systems yet.

 

[Ronnie Dilan]

Ronnie, save yourself now, DO NOT post on RM.

That is the funniest **** I have read on here all month. We are just glad to see a bunch of passionate people who just want real products from a real company. We will take all of this feedback and use it make sure that we stay true to what people want.

 

[Ronnie Dilan]

I dunno, that Fiat 500 ride we did made it seem like the most FUN car ever. Drives like a go kart, jumps like a trophy truck, throws hamburgers at windows like a... nevermind.

There is nothing wrong with throwing burgers at windows!! You are right about the Fiat jumping better than the Datsun though.

 

[Ronnie Dilan]

Hey Ronnie, can't wait to play with these next year as I'm assuming you guys will still have a relationship with Santiago. You know what I'm waiting to hear: air spring!
Yes, I was the only one who wanted to run air in the current 888s but I also didn't have to swap springs around to be happy. The 888evo tuning thread is 99% "what spring should I use, where can I get it?"

How are you doing Leland? I still talk to Santiago every other day, mostly just help with tuning something or just some random conversation about how things are going with the Acos team these days. We will be sharing some more features of the fork after the show in Taichung in a few weeks.

 

[Deano]

Is DVO going to try and have a presense in europe too ?

Not that i dont like Avy stuff, seems like everyone likes it but the cost of it when ordering it is insane.

i mean everything we import is slapped with a 30% import tax of the total amount paid for the goods.

DVO seems like a thing i would give a shot if it was somewhat in range pricewise.

 

[sethimus]

Is DVO going to try and have a presense in europe too ?

Not that i dont like Avy stuff, seems like everyone likes it but the cost of it when ordering it is insane.

i mean everything we import is slapped with a 30% import tax of the total amount paid for the goods.

DVO seems like a thing i would give a shot if it was somewhat in range pricewise.

dont know where you from but bike parts have 4,7% duty in germany (+vat)

 

[Ronnie Dilan]

Is DVO going to try and have a presense in europe too ?

Not that i dont like Avy stuff, seems like everyone likes it but the cost of it when ordering it is insane.

i mean everything we import is slapped with a 30% import tax of the total amount paid for the goods.

DVO seems like a thing i would give a shot if it was somewhat in range pricewise.

We are in the process of meeting with a couple of distributors in Europe. We should have more information on this after December.

Ronnie