Quantcast

DW Wins Split Pivot patent

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
15,837
939
01776
who can tell - either way could be interesting - especially as the patent may actually cover most layouts of any 4 bar links... depending who is arguing the point.. may be it is a plot for world dominance!! :D
So I've heard...therefore it may be difficult to defend the patent in court, if you can prove that 30million other designs covered under it were there first...

seriously...and a news article, and a PB article...yech
 

bizutch

Delicate CUSTOM flower
Dec 11, 2001
15,921
8
Over your shoulder whispering
The only thing that sucks about all these threads and announcements is that none of them say what we all want to know. How does this impact (or does it) Trek?

Does he now get to sue Trek over the patent or what? No speculation. I just want Weage to tell us what happens next so I don't have to read 20 pages of e-spec.

Oh, and is it true that Weagle patented an element on the periodic table b/c he thought of it first?
 

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
2,486
283
SLO
The only thing that sucks about all these threads and announcements is that none of them say what we all want to know. How does this impact (or does it) Trek?

Does he now get to sue Trek over the patent or what? No speculation. I just want Weage to tell us what happens next so I don't have to read 20 pages of e-spec.

Oh, and is it true that Weagle patented an element on the periodic table b/c he thought of it first?
Did he ever challenge Trek on their suspension layout the last three years they have been using it? It seems that would be very hard to past worries about other companies infringing on his suspension layouts.
 

LukeD

Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
751
2
Massachusetts
Did he ever challenge Trek on their suspension layout the last three years they have been using it? It seems that would be very hard to past worries about other companies infringing on his suspension layouts.
I don't believe he's allowed to once the patent is in office waiting for approval. why challenge it before you are legally bound and own the patent?
 

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
2,486
283
SLO
I don't believe he's allowed to once the patent is in office waiting for approval. why challenge it before you are legally bound and own the patent?
True to document protection it would start after it was accepted.
 

eatmyshorts

Monkey
Jun 18, 2010
110
0
South OZ
So I've heard...therefore it may be difficult to defend the patent in court, if you can prove that 30million other designs covered under it were there first...



seriously...and a news article, and a PB article...yech
as always its down to has the deepest pockets (with lawyers hands in them)
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,191
779
My own world inside my head
Trek will keep doing what they always do..... build bikes, they have no plans on changing anything anytime soon.

Just like the sunday and glory debate....... the trail is different on the two design's, and each will list the design for a different intended use..... Overall when it hits the courts...... it will be found there is no infringement....... Just like back in teh day when Giant used to build bikes for Speccy, and they built a bike very simmular to a Speccy suspension..... Even speccy couldnt get Giant to stop.....
 
Last edited:

1000-Oaks

Monkey
May 8, 2003
778
0
Simi Valley, CA
Is it just me, or did anyone else think the Trek concentric pivot design seemed to be more of a marketing gimmic than anything that would actually change the feel of a bike? How different could it really be compared to a single-pivot faux-4-bar that has the pivot an inch up the seat stay from the axle? The wheel path will still be exactly the same, because the chainstay is the same. I just don't see how pressuring the "rear swingarm" (with the seat stays) at the rear axle could be much different than loading it from an inch or two away from the rear axle.

Seems like other geometry changes would make a lot more difference than moving that rear pressure point around an inch...glad to see DW is making money on it though, after getting robbed on the DW link design.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,191
779
My own world inside my head
Is it just me, or did anyone else think the Trek concentric pivot design seemed to be more of a marketing gimmic than anything that would actually change the feel of a bike? How different could it really be compared to a single-pivot faux-4-bar that has the pivot an inch up the seat stay from the axle? The wheel path will still be exactly the same, because the chainstay is the same. I just don't see how pressuring the "rear swingarm" (with the seat stays) at the rear axle could be much different than loading it from an inch or two away from the rear axle.

Seems like other geometry changes would make a lot more difference than moving that rear pressure point around an inch...glad to see DW is making money on it though, after getting robbed on the DW link design.
You would actually be suprised how much more active the rear end is when setup like this. It really is a noticable change in how the bike feels and behaves.
 

1000-Oaks

Monkey
May 8, 2003
778
0
Simi Valley, CA
You would actually be suprised how much more active the rear end is when setup like this. It really is a noticable change in how the bike feels and behaves.
I'd be interested to hear how it makes any difference. Have you been on two identical frames and builds, except for one frame having the bearing at the axle and the other with it just above?

Can't really compare apples to apples if the frames are different in other ways, or the builds are different.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,995
23
Whistler
I'd be interested to hear how it makes any difference. Have you been on two identical frames and builds, except for one frame having the bearing at the axle and the other with it just above?

Can't really compare apples to apples if the frames are different in other ways, or the builds are different.
It's equivalent to having a floating brake that also happens to drive the shock. Performance-wise it offers similar potential to what you could do with FSR if you were so inclined - the long and the short of it is basically:
- Pedalling performance that can be set up the same as any singlepivot (same as what can be done with FSR, within the realm of what you'd actually want to do anyway)
- Leverage rates can be modified in a similar manner to any other bike that isn't just a straight-up singlepivot
- Braking characteristics that can be manipulated in a similar manner to any other 4-bar linkage bike, or a singlepivot with a floating brake - again like FSR.

Basically the key points of the design are:
1. Easily separable pedalling and braking characteristics for designers. Changing the pedalling characteristics by shifting the main pivot a few mm will not have a huge effect on the braking performance, changing the braking characteristics by modifying the geometry of linkage driving the shock without moving the main pivot will not have any effect on the pedalling characteristics.
2. Cheaper and easier to produce than short-link designs, does not place the same loads on pivots or leverage on links, doesn't require such tight tolerances to achieve specific performance characteristics or to avoid generating lots of play.

Split-pivot/ABP have more to offer the budget-conscious designers in the bike world than they do to consumers looking for the best thing money can buy.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
Thanks for all of the kind words guys. The new Split Pivot partners and I have been working hard to get bikes out there. Truthfully I wish that things could have happened earlier, but I am just one guy working out of a small shop, and I have been spread too thin over the past few years to really concentrate on everything that I wanted to. In some ways this is better than how things went down with dw-link. Now we have an awarded patent with more on the way, and all before partner bikes hit the market.

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel or prove anything to anyone with this design. I am confident that the bike we've worked on will stand on their own merit and performance. If riders like them, we will hear about it. If they don't, we'll REALLY hear about it! Either way I will be listening and bikes will keep improving year after year. Everything I do is to make the riding experience better and I will keep doing that as long as I have new ideas that are relevant and helpful to that cause.

Keep riding! (Just got back from 3 days of prototype DH testing at Highland and it was AWESOME!)
 

rbx

Monkey
Why use a cocentric pivot at the rear axle?

Wouldn't a very close rear chainstay pivot that is slighty above the rear axle accomplish the same things without stepping on specialized toes?

(It would also have the adavantage of being easier to design and properly seal)

Maybe im missing something here??

And congrulations on the patent and thank you for your very valuable contribution to the MTB world!:)
 
Last edited:

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
this part pisses me off. :shakefist:
I was smiling all three days, wow it was awesome, makes me feel so lucky to do what I do and gives me the motivation to work harder and think harder so I can keep doing so.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
Why use a cocentric pivot at the rear axle?

Wouldn't a very close rear chainstay pivot that is slighty above the rear axle accomplish the same things without stepping on specialized toes?
I think that Rocky and a couple other people have patents on variations of axle pivots above the rear wheel, kind of the opposite thing as Specialized but different in layout. Any really long link suspension like Split Pivot etc.. will end up having similar capabilities from a design standpoint. I'm in no way trying to polish Split Pivot beyond what it is. It's a single pivot for acceleration and a multi link for braking and leverage ratio. This does let me choose main pivot locations for acceleration that so far none of the companies using FSR etc.. really have. I like to push the limits. The thing with designing any bike, a designer first needs to make educated decisions on how to balance out the many different factors that go into ergonomics, kinematics, and frame geometry. That balancing act really makes up the whole picture of what a bike is and how it rides, and that's a big reason why the different bikes that I work on have so many different personalities.

(It would also have the adavantage of being easier to design and properly seal)

Maybe im missing something here??
Same bearings, same amount of pivots, but with the Split pivot having the axle forces concentric with that pivot in my opinion make things easier to make stiff than a pivot that's close to but forward of the axle. It's tough to beat a triangulated rear end with short links for structural efficiency, but this is a nice choice based on the FEA that I've seen the prototypes that I've ridden.

And congrulations on the patent and thank you for your very valuable contribution to the MTB world!:)
Thanks man, I am trying my hardest to work on things that will make the riding experience better for everyone. Not everything I work on will jive with every rider, but I'm hoping that it's getting to the point now where there are enough choices out there to satisfy more of the different styles and wants that riders have.
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,514
26
ACT Australia
Thanks man, I am trying my hardest to work on things that will make the riding experience better for everyone. Not everything I work on will jive with every rider, but I'm hoping that it's getting to the point now where there are enough choices out there to satisfy more of the different styles and wants that riders have.
Cool, are you working on a high pivot split pivot bike with anyone? You could easily dial in your anti squat ideals, leverage rate, and brake effects.
I know you can see the bennefits to a high pivot, as you alude to it in your previous posts in other threads, you just put it behind other ideals, but with your split pivot you have a great template to dial in all your other ideals, and still milk a rearward axle paths benefits.
 

Tomasis

Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
681
0
Scotland
dw, do you have some animations? im not so good to vizualize something in brains regarding compllicated suspensions thing especially concentric point while braking. To understand single pivot while accelerating is no problem.

What program do you suggest if I want to play with simple 3d tubes connected to each other to see how the suspension works and at the same time understand your explanations? I have your pdf and feel like :doh:
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,191
779
My own world inside my head
I'd be interested to hear how it makes any difference. Have you been on two identical frames and builds, except for one frame having the bearing at the axle and the other with it just above?

Can't really compare apples to apples if the frames are different in other ways, or the builds are different.


New Demo 8 vs session 88 vs golry with very similar builds???

Those close enough?
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
Cool, are you working on a high pivot split pivot bike with anyone? You could easily dial in your anti squat ideals, leverage rate, and brake effects.
I know you can see the bennefits to a high pivot, as you alude to it in your previous posts in other threads, you just put it behind other ideals, but with your split pivot you have a great template to dial in all your other ideals, and still milk a rearward axle paths benefits.
I'd say that compared to most other single pivot, horst link, or similar type bikes on the market, every one of the designs that I've worked on would be considered a "high pivot". That's one of the real advantages to the Split Pivot design in my opinion, being able to use a higher main pivot location for acceleration. The Split Pivot's integrated floating brake and the ability to get a little more leverage ratio control tie it all together. You won't see any Split Pivot bikes come from my shop with low main pivot locations, I can guaranty that.