[LordOpie]

I want to discuss it, but I don't have the facts...

does anyone know how many there are? (obviously a statistically relevant estimate)

how much in $resources do they cost the country in education, health care, etc.?

how much do they contribute in taxes?

Other hard economic factors?

TIA

 

[Tenchiro]

I have not seen any non-biased sources on it, but I would imagine that the taxes they pay and money they spend totally offsets the costs for things like education and healthcare.

 

[Dirty]

From NY Times:

The Search for Illegal Immigrants Stops at the Workplace
By EDUARDO PORTER

IT may seem that the United States government has declared all-out war against illegal immigration. During the last decade, the budget dedicated to enforcement of immigration laws has grown by leaps and bounds. The Border Patrol has about three times as many agents as it did in the early 1990's, and the southern border has been laced with high-tech surveillance gadgetry.

Yet a closer look reveals a very different portrait of immigration policy. It seems designed for failure. Most experts agree that a vast majority of illegal immigrants who make it across the border every year are seeking work. But the workplace is the one spot that is virtually unpoliced.

"What we've done is put a lot of people on the line of scrimmage, but when you do that the other side can just lob a little pass and score a touchdown," said Richard M. Stana, director of homeland security and justice issues at the Government Accountability Office. "Trying to get a better balance between border enforcement and interior enforcement would go a long way."

In a strategy document in 1999, the Immigration and Naturalization Service put monitoring the workplace last among its five enforcement priorities. Today, the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which has replaced the I.N.S. and is a branch of the Department of Homeland Security, devotes about 4 percent of its personnel to enforcement in the workplace, down from 9 percent in 1999.

Demographers estimate that six million to seven million illegal immigrants are working in the United States; that is some 5 percent of the nation's work force. Yet in 2004, the latest year for which there is data, the immigration authorities issued penalty notices to only three companies.

The current approach hasn't halted illegal immigration: some 400,000 to 500,000 illegal immigrants enter the United States every year, almost double the rate of the 1980's, before the buildup in border enforcement.

Regardless of whether the United States ought to have more or less immigration, the nation's policy must be flawed when almost half of all immigrants come in illegally. Indeed, some experts argue that the basic reason illegal immigration hasn't stopped is that the country doesn't want it to. Gordon H. Hanson, an economist at the University of California, San Diego, said the ineffective approach was the product of a collection of interests.

"Employers feel very strongly about maintaining access to immigrant workers, and exert political pressure to prevent enforcement from being effective," Professor Hanson said. "While there are lots of groups concerned about immigration on the other side" of the argument, "it's not like their livelihood depends on this."

Employers have long been the main driver of immigration policy, Professor Hanson said. Not surprisingly, they tend to dislike the provision in current immigration law for penalties against employers.

That may explain why fines for hiring illegal immigrants can be as low as $275 a worker, and immigration officials acknowledge that businesses often negotiate fines downward. And why, after the I.N.S. raided onion fields in Georgia during the 1998 harvest, a senator and four members of the House of Representatives from the state sharply criticized the agency for hurting Georgia farmers.

After the terrorist attacks of 2001, the government limited immigration enforcement in the workplace to what it deemed "critical infrastructure" — places like nuclear power plants and airports — that could be vulnerable to terrorism. Even in the late 1990's when the economy was booming and labor markets were tight, the I.N.S. virtually stopped looking for illegal immigrants in the workplace.

Employers might not favor a guest worker program to allow immigrants to work here legally, if such a program included harsher policing of the workplace. "A guest worker program would offer secure legal access to immigrant labor, but at the risk that this labor would come in smaller quantities or with more strings attached," Professor Hanson said.

The immigration law of 1986 contained a basic flaw. Congress barred employers from hiring illegal immigrants, but it didn't provide a reliable way for employers to check an immigrant's status.

For less than $50, immigrants can buy a set of fake documents — usually a Social Security card and green card, indicating permanent residency — to get a job. The fake ID's provide employers with crucial protection in the eyes of the law: companies can plausibly deny that they knew they were hiring people without legal permission to work.

The upshot is that millions of illegal immigrants work on the books, with the odd side effect that the Social Security Administration receives millions of Form W2 wage reports from employers that bear random Social Security numbers.

In 1996 the inspector general of the Justice Department warned that fraudulent documents were allowing unscrupulous employers to avoid accountability for hiring illegal immigrants. If the government decided to halt, or at least substantially dent, the flow of these immigrants into the work force, it would find that it probably already has the tools.

Since 1997, immigration authorities and the Social Security Administration have been running a voluntary pilot program that allows employers to check worker documentation on the spot — matching documents against government databases over the Internet.

This system could end employers' deniability, because they could determine quickly whether a given employee was authorized to work in the United States. That's probably why so few companies have signed up: only about 2,300 of the more than six million employers across the country.

EVEN if such a system became mandatory, people might continue to hire illegal immigrants as nannies and housekeepers, and to pay them in cash. Small businesses operating under the radar might also hire them off the books.

Yet many illegal immigrants work on the books. For employers, it is one thing to fail to question the dubious provenance of Social Security cards. It is quite another to overtly break the law.

Ramping up the pilot program into a mandatory national one would be costly. The Department of Homeland Security and the Social Security Administration would have to make their databases compatible. Glitches — such as different spellings for the same name — would have to be ironed out.

But these difficulties do not seem insurmountable, especially when set against the Department of Homeland Security's enormous and utterly ineffective effort to stop illegal immigration at the border.

So why hasn't workplace enforcement increased? "It's an open question," said Mr. Stana of the G.A.O. "Have we turned a blind eye to this in the interest of keeping the economy humming?"

just an interesting article i remember running across...

 

[biggins]

I have not seen any non-biased sources on it, but I would imagine that the taxes they pay and money they spend totally offsets the costs for things like education and healthcare.

they arent friggin taxed (the illegal ones at least)therefore they are not contributing anything to education and whatnot. They are covered by law however that hospitals treat them when they go. most of em get it for free. i think i should gain citizenship somewhere else then come back so i can have government funded health care.

 

[ohio]

they arent friggin taxed .

If you want to get angry, get angry at employers. Illegals don't have any money to tax. Even if they were registered and on visas, at their wages the would be in the bottom (read: untaxed) bracket.

In the meantime, they contribute to our economic growth, pay consumption taxes, and generally avoid healthcare because while the hospitals are obligated to treat them, that treatment will also get them deported.

You're welcome to trade your lifestyle for theirs anytime you want, just cut your health insurance and take an under-the-table cash job from a shady employer for $4 an hour. THEN you can come back hear bitching about the "free ride" these poor folks are getting.

editted: I take back my assertion about crime rates

 

[biggins]

If you want to get angry, get angry at employers. Illegals don't have any money to tax. Even if they were registered and on visas, at their wages the would be in the bottom (read: untaxed) bracket.

In the meantime, they contribute to our economic growth, pay consumption taxes, are generally much more crime free than American citizens, and generally avoid healthcare because while the hospitals are obligated to treat them, that treatment will also get them deported.

You're welcome to trade your lifestyle for theirs anytime you want, just cut your health insurance and take an under-the-table cash job from a shady employer for $4 an hour. THEN you can come back hear bitching about the "free ride" these poor folks are getting.

bs man my wages have always been on the bottom and they tax me. if they are making money and using US resources they should be taxed. i dont care if they are illegal or not personally, i couldnt care less, but if they make money they should be taxed and if they are illegal and dont want to go throught the citizenship process then they shouldnt even be allowed to veen consider the possibility of striking.
Tired of your 4 bucks an hour?go somewhere else. dont come into this country illegaly, work illegaly, milk the system then start whining about like a bitch.

 

[DirtyDog]

bs man my wages have always been on the bottom and they tax me. if they are making money and using US resources they should be taxed. i dont care if they are illegal or not personally, i couldnt care less, but if they make money they should be taxed and if they are illegal and dont want to go throught the citizenship process then they shouldnt even be allowed to veen consider the possibility of striking.
Tired of your 4 bucks an hour?go somewhere else. dont come into this country illegaly, work illegaly, milk the system then start whining about like a bitch.

I don't know how anyone can argue with that expert analysis.

 

[LordOpie]

actually, illegals are taxed.

Many use 'illegally' gained social security numbers to get work and pay taxes as anyone else. Then at April 15, they don't file (obviously) and don't get any sort of tax rebates or Earned Income Credits (EIC).

So, they do pay income tax and never receive a refund.

Plus, they pay sales taxes too.

So, it's possible -- and I'd like to see some actual data -- that illegals pay more into the system than they take out.

 

[Lex]

they arent friggin taxed (the illegal ones at least)therefore they are not contributing anything to education and whatnot. They are covered by law however that hospitals treat them when they go. most of em get it for free. i think i should gain citizenship somewhere else then come back so i can have government funded health care.

If you read the above article you'll see that in getting employment though the use of false documents many immigrants are paying taxes out of their checks every week. The problem is that sometimes the SS numbers are dummies, so the SS Administration is receiving money that isn't being attributed to anyone in particluar. If our government really wanted to crack down on a lot of employers all they would really have to do is go after these dummy SS numbers at their source.

A lot of illegals also use the identity of someone else (i.e., SS number, green card, etc.) to get employment and once again taxes are being payed. If the SS Administration took a closer look at some legit numbers, they would find that some people have 10 full time jobs. Funny and at the same time sickening that the system is being worked over so easily. (Note: a family member has seen this first hand, so I'm not just pulling this out of my a**).

Don't think I'm anti-immigration by any means. My wife is not from the U.S. and I have dual citizenship. But having gone through all of the proper channels and paying all of the fees, it's a little disheartening to see some people take the law so lightly. Including our own government.

 

[LordOpie]

For less than $50, immigrants can buy a set of fake documents — usually a Social Security card and green card, indicating permanent residency — to get a job. The fake ID's provide employers with crucial protection in the eyes of the law: companies can plausibly deny that they knew they were hiring people without legal permission to work.

The upshot is that millions of illegal immigrants work on the books, with the odd side effect that the Social Security Administration receives millions of Form W2 wage reports from employers that bear random Social Security numbers.

probably more clear than what I was trying to say

 

[DRB]

If you want to get angry, get angry at employers. Illegals don't have any money to tax. Even if they were registered and on visas, at their wages the would be in the bottom (read: untaxed) bracket.

In the meantime, they contribute to our economic growth, pay consumption taxes, are generally much more crime free than American citizens, and generally avoid healthcare because while the hospitals are obligated to treat them, that treatment will also get them deported.

You're welcome to trade your lifestyle for theirs anytime you want, just cut your health insurance and take an under-the-table cash job from a shady employer for $4 an hour. THEN you can come back hear bitching about the "free ride" these poor folks are getting.

Much more crime free?

 

[LordOpie]

Much more crime free?

yeah, kind of an extreme statement, eh?

Could be true tho... so, again, I would love to see some evidence/'facts'/data, if anyone knows of an even slightly reliable, modestly unbiased source, please post it

 

[Tenchiro]

they arent friggin taxed (the illegal ones at least)therefore they are not contributing anything to education and whatnot. They are covered by law however that hospitals treat them when they go. most of em get it for free. i think i should gain citizenship somewhere else then come back so i can have government funded health care.

I know a few illegals and while they do use fraudulent papers, their employers pay taxes, medicare and social security on them. Not to mention sales taxes.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Much more crime free?

Actually, they are "illegal" just in living here, so each of them has broken AT LEAST one law.

 

[BurlyShirley]

While there is the argument that some pay some taxes, a HELL OF A LOT do not. MOST that I know/knew/met worked under the table for cash doing construction/landscaping other odd jobs. Now, it is correct to blame the employer here for taking advantage of a situation, but the FACT OF THE MATTER is that the situation should not exist to exploit!
As for healthcare and education, well, I have no real problem with the education thing as long as the parents are being taxed on some level, however, the healthcare thing is out of hand. Again, the issue isnt whether we should just "not" give them emergency care or "not" deport them afterward, the issue is that the situation SHOULD NOT EXIST to exploit. That's all Im saying.

 

[ohio]

Much more crime free?

Maybe "much" is an overstatement, but illegals can't afford to get busted for even petty crimes because of the risk of deportation.

 

[ohio]

the issue is that the situation SHOULD NOT EXIST to exploit. That's all Im saying.

You're going to have to say more. How do you propose eliminating the situation?

Reagan-style amnesty is the fastest and easiest, but then republicans will scream that you're rewarding their criminal behavior and encouraging more illegal immigration. Rounding them up and deporting them, is possible, though very expensive and you'll destroy portions of the economies and probably incite terrorist acts among certain populaces.

So are you just going to bitch and moan that things shouldn't be this way, or so you have a solution?

 

[ohio]

Tired of your 4 bucks an hour?go somewhere else. dont come into this country illegaly, work illegaly, milk the system then start whining about like a bitch.

I don't hear too many illegals whining about their 4 bucks an hour. I hear a lot more of you whining about their 4 bucks an hour.

 

[DRB]

Maybe "much" is an overstatement, but illegals can't afford to get busted for even petty crimes because of the risk of deportation.

Much is an overstatement. Interesting that the fasting growing gang segment in the US today is hispanic. Guess whether the majority of their membership is legally or illegally in the US.

Do you consider DUI a petty crime? 6% of the population in North Carolina is Hispanic. In North Carolina, 1 in 5 motorists arrested for DUI last year were hispanic. In Mecklenburg County its 1 in 4.

I would suspect that as easy as it is to get back in deportation isn't a real deterent. Its probably why illegal aliens from non-adjacent countries are a lot more careful.

 

[Transcend]

bs man my wages have always been on the bottom and they tax me. if they are making money and using US resources they should be taxed. i dont care if they are illegal or not personally, i couldnt care less, but if they make money they should be taxed and if they are illegal and dont want to go throught the citizenship process then they shouldnt even be allowed to veen consider the possibility of striking.
Tired of your 4 bucks an hour?go somewhere else. dont come into this country illegaly, work illegaly, milk the system then start whining about like a bitch.

Next rant: Prices on the prodycts i like to buy are too high!

Oh wait, it's because any American would demand benefits, 3x higher wages etc.

 

[ohio]

edit: I stand corrected - I had a look around and a disproportionate number of gang members are illegal, generally brought over by gang/druglords and then paying back their debt through drug dealing/running and other gang-related activity. With the exception of LA, where these are mostly Hispanic gangs, the biggest problems seem to be Asian gangs, I'm guessing because of the huge cost (and therefore debt) of smuggling people into the country.

Among the "working" illegals, I would still bet crime rates are low... but haven't found anything to support that.

 

[DRB]

edit: I stand corrected - I had a look around and a disproportionate number of gang members are illegal, generally brought over by gang/druglords and then paying back their debt through drug dealing/running and other gang-related activity. With the exception of LA, where these are mostly Hispanic gangs, the biggest problems seem to be Asian gangs, I'm guessing because of the huge cost (and therefore debt) of smuggling people into the country.

Among the "working" illegals, I would still bet crime rates are low... but haven't found anything to support that.

You must be talking about M-18 and MS-13. Well the reality is that both of them are a nationwide problem. As are the Latin Kings, La Eme, Mexican Posse so on and so forth..... Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and Florida are obvious. What about North Carolina, New York..... How 'bout Wisconsin, Minnesota and Indiana?

Straight from an FBI agent whose focus is gang related crime, the Hispanic gangs are the most violent and organized gangs around. Again that's nationwide not localized to LA.

I also find your assertion that "working" illegals are somehow less likely to be criminal. Again with the ease of return, how bad is deportation to them? If they are running with false documents how worried are they......

 

[scrublover]

Tired of your 4 bucks an hour?go somewhere else. dont come into this country illegaly, work illegaly, milk the system then start whining about like a bitch.

aaaand just who are you going to replace them with, once they leave? all the americans clamoring to have a $4 an hour job, with no insurance/benefits whatsoever? yeah, right. *very few* of even low income natural US citizens would take those jobs. dangerous/low pay/minimal or no benifits doesn't work with most americans and their outrageous senses of entitlement.

solution? raise the pay and bennies to a liveable wage that more legal citizens would be willing to work for, right? but then, the cost of the goods/services will rise, (or in some cases the higher ups will take a pay cut; yeah, that's gonna' happen any day now....) and then you'd have a large majority of the US unwilling to pay the higher prices......and whining about it. and businesses tanking secondary to inability to compete with lower prices overseas option.

the US economy as it is right now is very dependent on illegal labour.
it's a very big catch-22 situation. the only way out would be a huge shift in the way most americans think about consumerism/consumerist lifestyels. and i sure as hell don't see that happening.

 

[Transcend]

aaaand just who are you going to replace them with, once they leave? all the americans clamoring to have a $4 an hour job, with no insurance/benefits whatsoever? yeah, right. *very few* of even low income natural US citizens would take those jobs. dangerous/low pay/minimal or no benifits doesn't work with most americans and their outrageous senses of entitlement.

Unemployment tends to pay more then most illegals make. So why do the jobs when you can live in a trailer and have the Gov't pay for your smokes and meth?

 

[scrublover]

Unemployment tends to pay more then most illegals make. So why do the jobs when you can live in a trailer and have the Gov't pay for your smokes and meth?

exactly. i forgot that point.

gah! i usually only lurk around here, but couldn't help myself this time.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Unemployment tends to pay more then most illegals make. So why do the jobs when you can live in a trailer and have the Gov't pay for your smokes and meth?

You're right. And that goes back to what I was saying before about "Jobs Americans Wont Do" or whatever. Its really not that they just wont do them, its that they wont do them because they SOMEHOW have better options. Because for some reason that I'll never understand, people support legislation to keeps giving handouts and stagnating (that a word?) society. So yeah, you can get by doing nothing better than if you go out and work hard cutting tobacco or picking oranges or something.
Call me old fashioned, but I beleive you gain pride from hard work, and that people would be alot less likely to do meth if they werent just sitting on their ass all day, but isntead out digging ditches and eaking out a living.

 

[LordOpie]

"Illegals are the reason you have to 'press 1'." ~ Colbert Report

 

[biggins]

Next rant: Prices on the prodycts i like to buy are too high!

Oh wait, it's because any American would demand benefits, 3x higher wages etc.

and you dont think that the 11 million immigrant workers in this country arent gonna want the same thing when they become citizens and are blanketed under the US work laws? nice thinkin there transcend. If they all become citizens the pay for all of them will go up to AT LEAST to the current minimum wage.Carpenters and brick layers pay will at least double because due to discrimination they have to get paid the same as any other race doing the same (which i think is fair, i am not racist)job so there goes the cost of any new construction flying through the roof. The produce that is eatin by this country will get a lot more expensive when the people harvesting that produce gets wages that are doubled.

So lets talk for a minute about the economics of illegal migrant workers.

 

[biggins]

it would be cheaper for us if we just kept them illegal.

i by no means however agree with them all being deemed felons for being here illegaly. i just think they should shut down the friggin border.

 

[Transcend]

I suggest having them all deported so you can fully understand the situation you are in. Then complain about migrant worker economics.

Oh wait, you'll be too busy complaining that the economy has completely tanked and be pissed that you got fired from your current job as the economy can't support it, and now you are out picking avacados or strawberries somewhere.

Also migrant worker and illegal worker are 2 different things.

They are happy doing their jobs for $4 an hour, sure. They'd be happier with proper protections from people who simply don't pay them after they do the work. Seeing as they are doing jobs that MUST be done, a migrant, legal worker program is the best idea yet. Penalize companies for hiring people without proper paperwork, which will be free and easy to obtain from the Gov't to a certain # a year (much as H1 tech visas are).

Leaving it illegal, while easy, and cheap is not the optimum solution.

Then people will complain that they are being watched too much.

 

[biggins]

I suggest having them all deported so you can fully understand the situation you are in. Then complain about migrant worker economics.

Oh wait, you'll be too busy complaining that the economy has completely tanked and be pissed that you got fired from your current job as the economy can't support it, and now you are out picking avacados or strawberries somewhere.

Also migrant worker and illegal worker are 2 different things.

They are happy doing their jobs for $4 an hour, sure. They'd be happier with proper protections from people who simply don't pay them after they do the work. Seeing as they are doing jobs that MUST be done, a migrant, legal worker program is the best idea yet. Penalize companies for hiring people without proper paperwork, which will be free and easy to obtain from the Gov't to a certain # a year (much as H1 tech visas are).

Leaving it illegal, while easy, and cheap is not the optimum solution.

Then people will complain that they are being watched too much.

i have no problem with anyone coming to this country as long as they become a citizen. i dont have a problem with people having work visas.

 

[biggins]

but i still think people need to look at it from the point of if the illegal workers get citizenship then the pay for the jobs they are currently doing will increase signifigantly. That in turn will raise the cost of goods as much as not having them at all.

 

[ohio]

Because for some reason that I'll never understand, people support legislation to keeps giving handouts

Unemployment only pays for a finite period of time. If and when your company Enrons, you'll be glad it's there.

In other cases, a "handout" is the most cost-effective solution to a problem, in some others it's the most expedient, and in others its a waste. I agree that some forms of welfare encourage a culture of reliance, but the solution is not taking away that money and letting children watch their mothers starve to death, take up prostitution etc.

As of 2000, about 2.5% of the population was on welfare (at it peak it was over 5%) so while it IS a significant expense, you'll have an easier time blaming spocieties degradation on the gay conspiracy or jews than on welfare.

 

[ohio]

You must be talking about M-18 and MS-13

Yeah, sure, and what about, uh QS-345 or HPV-7?

****, you'd think I would have learned by now that arguing with DRB will only result in me becoming the recipient of my own ass in a neatly ziplocked bag.

Wanna argue brand and market strategy or product design? It's cheating for a DC professional to come to the political debate forum on a mountain biking website. Do you also hang out at elementary schools and whip on all the special kids in tetherball?

 

[biggins]

well it seems to me that they flee mexico for better jobs and freedoms that they dont have there because of their government, maybe someone should tell the president this news so that he can go to war with mexico to liberate them from their corrupt government and rebuild for them.

 

[Changleen]

well it seems to me that they flee mexico for better jobs and freedoms that they dont have there because of their government, maybe someone should tell the president this news so that he can go to war with mexico to liberate them from their corrupt government and rebuild for them.

That was sarcasm right?

 

[DRB]

Yeah, sure, and what about, uh QS-345 or HPV-7?

****, you'd think I would have learned by now that arguing with DRB will only result in me becoming the recipient of my own ass in a neatly ziplocked bag.

Just think of it of filling in the relatively minor gaps of your education......

Wanna argue brand and market strategy or product design? It's cheating for a DC professional to come to the political debate forum on a mountain biking website. Do you also hang out at elementary schools and whip on all the special kids in tetherball?

Of course, I have to get my sense of self worth somewhere.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Unemployment only pays for a finite period of time. If and when your company Enrons, you'll be glad it's there.

In other cases, a "handout" is the most cost-effective solution to a problem, in some others it's the most expedient, and in others its a waste. I agree that some forms of welfare encourage a culture of reliance, but the solution is not taking away that money and letting children watch their mothers starve to death, take up prostitution etc.

As of 2000, about 2.5% of the population was on welfare (at it peak it was over 5%) so while it IS a significant expense, you'll have an easier time blaming spocieties degradation on the gay conspiracy or jews than on welfare.

Wait a second, are you attempting to tell me that allowing americans to sit on their asses and collect my tax dollars is a better solution than
making them take jobs that illegal immigrants are taking instead? I realize that unemployment has its place, I wasnt saying it doesnt, but there's just no reason for people to be living off it when there is work to be done. Id like to see some kind of unemployment office add-on that would headhunt for **** jobs. If you refused to take one, you wouldnt get paid. Even if the **** job wasnt enough to cover your daily costs, welfare could subsidize, not totally support.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Do you consider DUI a petty crime? 6% of the population in North Carolina is Hispanic. In North Carolina, 1 in 5 motorists arrested for DUI last year were hispanic. In Mecklenburg County its 1 in 4.

This might be a useful stat if all hispanics were illegal immigrants.

 

[Ridemonkey]

Much more crime free?

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/