[BurlyShirley]

Just being my usual morbid self, I was searching around for college degree programs for the MENTALLY HANDICAPPED and I got to thinking about how its kind of crazy that this kind of thing is really offered.
When I say "mentally handicapped" im thinking like, retarded people, right? Well, and this is bad i know, if these guys cant even really operate on a normal level, how is it that a degree is beneficial to them? Surely, these folks are getting free schooling from the government to get these degrees, and lots of regular folks who just want to go to school and get a job can barely get by. Its a bit backward IMO because its sort of counterproductive of the govt. to subsidize in this manner. Will this money ever be paid back in taxes from a productive member of the workforce?

The point of giving grants and loans to college students is to sort of make an investment in them in hopes of making a high wage worker of them, correct?

What do you all think?

 

[Toshi]

judging from the "featured" list on that link those aren't real colleges, but rather degree granting vocational schools . so i don't begrudge the handicapped

 

[blue]

I partially agree. While I think that the mentally handicapped should be given an equal oppportunity at education/employment/etc, I also believe that burdening the system with unneccessary scholarships and stuff along those lines is wrong. They should be forced to compete for scholarships at the same level as a non-handicapped person in order to "prove their worth" as it were. If they can't measure up, then they can have a job where they get patronized all day...like being a Wal-Mart door greeter

That probably sounded Nazi-esque...but its late...and I'm already writing a massive essay on the rise of the nazis...

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Toshi
judging from the "featured" list on that link those aren't real colleges, but rather degree granting vocational schools . so i don't begrudge the handicapped

Well i didnt search too hard for anything of substance, but Ive been informed from a friend of mine that several really mentally handicapped folks attend university where he does, and it just got me wondering.

I dont "begrudge" them, just trying to think of this logically is all.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Well i didnt search too hard for anything of substance, but Ive been informed from a friend of mine that several really mentally handicapped folks attend university where he does, and it just got me wondering.

I dont "begrudge" them, just trying to think of this logically is all.

my point about them being vocational schools is that scholarships to said schools basically constitutes job training for them. which is in society's best interest since it would (theoretically) get them working and off the dole.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Toshi
my point about them being vocational schools is that scholarships to said schools basically constitutes job training for them. which is in society's best interest since it would (theoretically) get them working and off the dole.

...but if said scholarships were to go to more able workers, would that not be the better investment? When one hires a handicapped worker, does he expect quality work, or to simply filla quota?

 

[valve bouncer]

Looks like someone has been reading too much Peter Singer.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
...but if said scholarships were to go to more able workers, would that not be the better investment? When one hires a handicapped worker, does he expect quality work, or to simply filla quota?

for most jobs, especially the ones on that list , i think a retarded person could do the job just as well as anyone else. as in there is a basic level of competence needed, but there's no artistry required. take truck driving, for instance. i'm no truck driver or an expert in the field, but it seems like it would be relatively mindless work...

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Toshi
for most jobs, especially the ones on that list , i think a retarded person could do the job just as well as anyone else. as in there is a basic level of competence needed, but there's no artistry required. take truck driving, for instance. i'm no truck driver or an expert in the field, but it seems like it would be relatively mindless work...

hahahahhah!

Well, it might be funny to make fun of truckdrivers like that, but I really dont think thats an honest assessment. I mean, Ive never seen a mentally handicapped truck driver. Ive never seen a mentally handicapped driver of any kind actually. Thats some serious safety issues youre taling there.


....and who is Peter Singer valveblower?

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by BurlySurly



....and who is Peter Singer valveblower?

hehehehe valveblower, nice one....he's head of the philosophy department at Princeton, he advocates, among other things, euthanising at birth the severely mentally disabled. Don't you have google at your internet

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Don't you have google at your internet

at MY internet. I love that.

Anyway, thats an interesting concept that I cant say I agree with, but honestly, i could see how some of the pro-death types around here would justify it. Saying that they're not "self-aware" among other things.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Interesting subject. Since I spent a summer supervising a sheltered workshop for the mentally handicapped and my wife currently does her therapy at a sheltered workshop I think I can speak on this subject.

Originally posted by Toshi
for most jobs, especially the ones on that list , i think a retarded person could do the job just as well as anyone else. as in there is a basic level of competence needed, but there's no artistry required. ...

Most mentally handicapped folks I know and my wife knows work believe it or not and are not on the "dole" (and so what if they were, if any people group is deserving I think it would be them).

Most of the jobs they do at these workshops are very manual (packaging candles or stuff like that), some of the higher functioning ones actually operate machinery (with supervision).

Regarding the whole higher education thing, only the high functioning ones are going to understand what is going on. But for them it would be about the equivalent of getting our HS education.

As for euthinizing (sp?) them, for the life of me I don't understand how a person who has met and gotten to know one of these folks would want them "put down". I love how these "educated" types have totally devalued the human existence. Where do we get our value? By what we produce, what we can do? I have a real hard time with the arbitrary assignement of "value" to a human based on these superficial conditions, or any conditions for that matter. Anyway, sorry for the rant.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

In the community I lived in while in Japan, they had an a kind of commune where the mentally and sometimes physically handicapped would work. They produced pastries, sweets, and children's toys. The place was absolutely beautiful, I used to walk through there in the afternoons and it was a very long time before I understood what it was. It always smelled wonderful and I'd see the toys in the windows but by the time I got to walk through there the workerbees had all gone home for the day.

It was a strange quandrary to me, on one hand it almost felt like they were segregating the lesser-abled individuals from the mainstream and "giving them something to do", but on the other hand, they trained them into skilled labourers and their labour paid for the commune and provided each individual with modest wages to take home to the family. These people still lived at home (as do most of the able-bodied folks - housing is a premium there).

My family there has a young boy in it, he was the cousin of the girl I did the exchange with, and he had downs syndrome, but they were teaching him to paint and he attended a special school. I also know that there is a famous painter somewhere in Japan's history that also had downs, I have one or two replicas of his work as well.

I don't know much about mentally disabled people, or how they are educated or how they benefit society. But I agree that if they can be trained as skilled labourers and earn a living wage for themselves then there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit

I don't know much about mentally disabled people, or how they are educated or how they benefit society. But I agree that if they can be trained as skilled labourers and earn a living wage for themselves then there's nothing wrong with that.

Im not saying there is anything wrong with training them at all. I am asking if it is wrong to give them preferance for training over non disabled people.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Im not saying there is anything wrong with training them at all. I am asking if it is wrong to give them preferance for training over non disabled people.

Welll...Just as getting passed over for jobs/careers/degrees whatever because of Affirmative action ticks me off...this would too I imagine.

Wouldn't it be great if the world were merit based?

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Im not saying there is anything wrong with training them at all. I am asking if it is wrong to give them preferance for training over non disabled people.

Quite the opposite. If a mentally disabled person is capable of learning a skill and doing the job, they should be given preference for selfish economic reasons... they're likely to be more loyal and dependable over the long run.

And it's been proven... link

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by LordOpie

And it's been proven... link

Haaaaahahaha.

I dont think theyre more dependable really. They cannot even depend on themselves. Thats kind of what being handicapped is, right?

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
Welll...Just as getting passed over for jobs/careers/degrees whatever because of Affirmative action ticks me off...this would too I imagine.

Wouldn't it be great if the world were merit based?

If the world was merit based, handicapped people who didn't have a generous family (both financially and time) would end up freezing to death in the streets in the winter.

I see what BS is saying (I don't think putting a person with Down's syndrome through college is a good idea) but I have zero problem with vocational programs...

There is a point where you have to wake up in the morning and realize "Hey, I'm not handicapped. This is a good thing, and I'm not going to begrudge the fact that a person in a hard spot is getting a hand up and I'm not!"