[fluff]

Following some wide-of-the-mark comments in the Islamic Terror Threat thread here is some info about Hamas that you may find enlightening.

It's a long article but that should not get in the way of comprehension should it? It also comes form one of the least-biased sources you could ask for.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2974

 

[$tinkle]

don't be lazy: which remarks swung wide from truth? i professed ignorance about fatah vs. hamas, and gave reasonable speculation as to why they were engaged in what can only be called a civil war. was there something more which warranted spotlighting?

moving along: by this thread-spun offering (make no mistake: i appreciate the effort), do you suggest hamas should be considered legitimate, to the point of engaging them with cautious diplomacy?

my take on their latest (~2 yrs) military ineffectiveness against israel is rooted in both israel's efforts (massive wall, most prominently) & hamas concentration on taking over the p.a., with the first giving great motivation for the second.

next, would you think it's fair & accurate to claim hamas is "pragmatic" due to their lack of successful suicide bombing ops within israel's border since summer '04?

would you claim any and all cherry picked "successes" in the region are due to hamas' efforts, and not israel's (or some other interested 3rd party)? point is, israel appears to have its boot on hamas' neck; they didn't appeal their case from reason.

while you slept, didja notice israel freed 250 prisoners? didja notice a big yawn from hamas, who had previously stated they would release gilad shalit in a prisoner swap? still no release.

i did learn a fitting term - bantustan - which accurately describes the condition in which the palis live. funny, no one ever uses this term for the israeli settlers who (used to) bespeckle the west bank - they're called 'occupiers'. hmph...

 

[fluff]

You mean this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6281604.stm

Israel's cabinet approved the move and a final list of prisoners - all linked to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party - will now be drawn up.

Mr Abbas last month formed an emergency cabinet that excluded Hamas Islamists.

The Israeli move is the latest show of support for the new cabinet, the BBC's Bethany Bell reports from Jerusalem.

Mr Abbas formed an emergency government based in the West Bank after Hamas fighters overran the Gaza Strip, overcoming their rivals from Fatah.

Israel and Western governments welcomed the move, lifting an aid embargo on the Palestinian authorities imposed in response to Hamas' refusal to recognise Israel and renounce violence.

Hamas criticised the Israeli decision, saying it was too selective.

"All Palestinian male and women detainees have the right to be freed," Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum told the Reuters news agency.

He said the release of Fatah-affiliated prisoners reinforced Mr Abbas' policy to deepen the divide between his organisation and Hamas.

About 10,000 Palestinian prisoners are being held in Israeli jails, some without charge.

 

[$tinkle]

hopefully this will result in legitimizing fatah at the expense of hamas. but as the FAIR article you linked pointed out, ideological change in the m.e. is glacial.

 

[fluff]

hopefully this will result in legitimizing fatah at the expense of hamas. but as the FAIR article you linked pointed out, ideological change in the m.e. is glacial.

Fatah = discredited, unpopular & generally perceived as corrupt, self-serving and too willing to sell out to the Israelis.

Hamas = democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people, perceived as provided the closest thing they've known to welfare, education and state-backed infrastructure in 60 years.

Oh, such a hope to see Fatah legitimized. Pity the Israelis could not find it in themselves to negotiate a fair settlement with the elected representatives of the people of the occupied territories.

Idealogical change is possible, but all sides need to be willing, not just the oppressed.

 

[valve bouncer]

Fatah = discredited, unpopular & generally perceived as corrupt, self-serving and too willing to sell out to the Israelis.

Hamas = democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people, perceived as provided the closest thing they've known to welfare, education and state-backed infrastructure in 60 years.

Oh, such a hope to see Fatah legitimized. Pity the Israelis could not find it in themselves to negotiate a fair settlement with the elected representatives of the people of the occupied territories.

Idealogical change is possible, but all sides need to be willing, not just the oppressed.

The fact of being democratically elected doesn't make them palatable. As much as I agree with the substance of the arguement, i.e- the West are hypocritical bastards, it falls somewhat in practice. Being democratic doesn't automatically make them fit to deal with. Other points vis a vis welfare etc are taken.

 

[$tinkle]

Idealogical change is possible, but all sides need to be willing, not just the oppressed.

and since when does anyone negotiate from a position of strength? especially those whiney jews; it's holocaust this, and mosaic covenent that

 

[fluff]

and since when does anyone negotiate from a position of strength? especially those whiney jews; it's holocaust this, and mosaic covenent that

Sadly true. However a wise man does negotiate from a position of strength, otherwise you are simply going to eventually find yourself in a much weaker position.

There is an excellent book entitled Israel's Fateful Decisions by Yehosofat Harkabi dealing with this very topic.

 

[fluff]

The fact of being democratically elected doesn't make them palatable. As much as I agree with the substance of the arguement, i.e- the West are hypocritical bastards, it falls somewhat in practice. Being democratic doesn't automatically make them fit to deal with. Other points vis a vis welfare etc are taken.

Did you read the original article in the first post? And whilst being democratically elected is no guarantee of anything, given that we pushed so hard for democratically elected Palestinian representation we really should have given them just a tiny chance.

 

[valve bouncer]

Did you read the original article in the first post? And whilst being democratically elected is no guarantee of anything, given that we pushed so hard for democratically elected Palestinian representation we really should have given them just a tiny chance.

Understood. On a government to government level some of the things done have been unconscionable as regards to the with-holding of funds legitimately earned by Palestinians. I still feel though that the West and Israel are under no obligation to give Hamas "just a tiny chance" because they are democratically elected. They'll have to do more than just give "hints" and "signals". Lately developments have been promising and the West/Israel would be fools not to respond positively.