Education

KFulch · Nov 18, 2003

Hmm..thats a bit steeply translated. I see the point but I don't think that translates the broad spectrum of Republican views.

BTW...I am not a Republican.

I Are Baboon · Nov 18, 2003

This already takes place in the education system. Haven't you ever taken a test, come to find out the grades were curved to keep us dummies from failing?

LordOpie · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by I Are Baboon
This already takes place in the education system. Haven't you ever taken a test, come to find out the grades were curved to keep us dummies from failing?

you're apparently not that dumb

ummbikes · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by N8
The father slowly smiled and said, "Welcome to the Republican Party."

The story is trying to compare an individual against a system and because an individual isn't a system the analogy fails.

The point is also trite in that the Republican benefits from the taxes collected as does the Democrat.

It's not as simple as the joke says it is.

Especially if dad works for Boeing ,Lockeed Martin or Bechtel or any of the thousands of other companies who do business with the government.

RhinofromWA · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes
The story is trying to compare an individual against a system and because an individual isn't a system the analogy fails.

The point is also trite in that the Republican benefits from the taxes collected as does the Democrat.

It's not as simple as the joke says it is.

Especially if dad works for Boeing ,Lockeed Martin or Bechtel or any of the thousands of other companies who do business with the government.

Individual to system? That is the point of a story simplified like this. You could take the whole student body and do the same thing. It doesn't make the anology a failure. :think:

The school student body would represent the population and the numerous "C" students would pull from the "A" students.

Both students still benefits from their adjusted grade.....like the Rep/Dem. One benefits to a greater % than the other when comparing actual imput.

A joke like this is supposed to be simple....overly simple at best. especially if it hopes to be delivered in the confines of the post size limits. I find it strange that you think this joke is meant to encompase everything and not be overly simplified.

It seems less funny when it is slanted away from ones own beliefs. That is understandable. But if you desire to pick apart this story like that you greatly overestimated its intention.

Taking this story seriously (like my spelling) is funny by itself.

ummbikes · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

Taking this story seriously (like my spelling) is funny by itself.

I'm a mode of tearing everything apart these days. The quarter ends on the 8th and I'll be glad to be done with arguing politics here and in school too.

I need to lighten up.

Just not for 3 more weeks.

:cool:

RhinofromWA · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes
I'm a mode of tearing everything apart these days. The quarter ends on the 8th and I'll be glad to be done with arguing politics here and in school too.

I need to lighten up.

Just not for 3 more weeks.

Ahhhhh

Well congrats on another quarter (semester?) finished. How many do you have left?

ummbikes · Nov 18, 2003

I'll be done in June.

RhinofromWA · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes
I'll be done in June.

Right on!

ummbikes · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

Right on!

Yep. Then I get to find a jobby job!

I can't wait to make money and pay taxes again....

laura · Nov 18, 2003

because we all know that all poor people do is laze around all day and party all night, and that is why they are poor. if they worked hard they could get rich too. and we all know that rich people slave day in and day out for their money, with out the help of any unearned privelage.

RhinofromWA · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by laura
because we all know that all poor people do is laze around all day and party all night, and that is why they are poor. if they worked hard they could get rich too. and we all know that rich people slave day in and day out for their money, with out the help of any unearned privelage.

The "rich" people I have known............

Do slave away day in and out

Are big risk takers and have made some lucky/good choices

Definately didn't get there easily.

All of them have, to some great degree, have all the traits above.

Much like school....atleast for me. The harder I worked and applied myself the better grades I received. I can also say the less I cared and work for grades the worse my grades became. Maybe I am not one of the insanely gifted people who get everything easily?

Sorry that just seems like a very bitter post.

laura · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
The "rich" people I have known............

Do slave away day in and out

Are big risk takers and have made some lucky/good choices

Definately didn't get there easily.

All of them have, to some great degree, have all the traits above.

Much like school....atleast for me. The harder I worked and applied myself the better grades I received. I can also say the less I cared and work for grades the worse my grades became. Maybe I am not one of the insanely gifted people who get everything easily?

Sorry that just seems like a very bitter post.

see, its funny, you didnt address the first part of my post. most poor people slave day in and day out too but instead of pulling in 100k a year, they are making minimum wage. i feel like people who are doing more than well enough for themsleves should help out. ooooo and i know we could get in to the whole "pull yourself up by your boot straps" argument but i really dont want to hear that. the whole blame the victim mentallity really angers me to no end.

RhinofromWA · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by laura
see, its funny, you didnt address the first part of my post. most poor people slave day in and day out too but instead of pulling in 100k a year, they are making minimum wage. i feel like people who are doing more than well enough for themsleves should help out. ooooo and i know we could get in to the whole "pull yourself up by your boot straps" argument but i really dont want to hear that. the whole blame the victim mentallity really angers me to no end.

No arguement there.......I know many hard working people who just can't make ends meet.

What part of your post would you like me to argue?

I didn't ignore it....you decided to indirectly state that rich people somehow don't deserve their money as they didn't earn it. And the poor people do. How do we decide how much is enough for well off person to contribute over a less fortunate person?

A graduated federal tax already does that. And beleive me the arguments of rich people not paying taxes is false. Not even close.

I am not by any stretch of the imagination rich. Who is the victim? Depends which side of the scale you're on I guess. The original joke didn't blame the "victim" anyway.

How many rich people (1st generation anyway) are lazy? Now how many minimum wage earners can be lumped in that category? I am going out on a limb and say more can be selected from the later group. I know I will get crap for that, but it doesnt really change my opinion.

"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a life time" - Don't have a clue

Again the story/joke is light hearted almost full blown joke material. I am assuming (and we know what happens when I assume.......

) this hits close to home for you (in work, political affiliation, friends/family, etc) but this story/joke thing wasn't attacking victims.

Rhino

laura · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

I didn't ignore it....you decided to indirectly state that rich people somehow don't deserve their money as they didn't earn it.

Rhino

oh no, i never said that or indirectly implied that. i am simply saying that a lot of well off men, my father included, ignore some of the unearned privelage that helped give them a leg up into the socio economic class that they are in. and dont get me wrong, my dad has worked harder than any man i have ever met in my life to give me all of the things he could never have. he did pull himself up by his boot straps. what i am saying is its not just hard work that gets most people where they are today. there are all kind of things that factor in.
thats what i mean by uearned privelage.

laura · Nov 18, 2003

i'd also like to add that when i say tax the rich, i am talking about people who make millions of dollars a day by just waking up. not the doctor living down the street.

JRogers · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by laura
i'd also like to add that when i say tax the rich, i am talking about people who make millions of dollars a day by just waking up.

Who are these people?

laura · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by JRogers
Who are these people?

the owners of the modes of production of course.

whoever. bill gates, britany spears, ceo of nike/mcdonalds/tyson chicken.

there are plenty of people that get richer by just breathing, and not just a little richer than everyone, a lot richer than everyone can imagine ever being. those are the people i am talking about.
you know, that top 1 percent of the population that controls 95% of the wealth in this country.

of course companies that big generally get all kinds of tax cuts and things of that nature so that they dont pay anything and just let the concumers bitch at each other abot whose paying more taxes and why.

Grimey · Nov 19, 2003

Quick... how are we defining hardworking in this thread?

stevew · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by laura
the owners of the modes of production of course.
whoever. bill gates, britany spears, ceo of nike/mcdonalds/tyson chicken.

there are plenty of people that get richer by just breathing, and not just a little richer than everyone, a lot richer than everyone can imagine ever being. those are the people i am talking about.
you know, that top 1 percent of the population that controls 95% of the wealth in this country.

of course companies that big generally get all kinds of tax cuts and things of that nature so that they dont pay anything and just let the concumers bitch at each other abot whose paying more taxes and why.

So Joan Kroc, widow of the man who founded McDonald's, donated 200 million to NPR. She sounds like a real tightwad.

JRogers · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by stevew
So Joan Kroc, widow of the man who founded McDonald's, donated 200 million to NPR. She sounds like a real tightwad.

Word. Those "super rich" are generally big philantropists. Also, they pay millions in taxes, I am sure. And besides, they have talent (use that word loosely in many instances) or good ideas so, for the most part, I have no issue with their wealth.

ohio · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by stevew
So Joan Kroc, widow of the man who founded McDonald's, donated 200 million to NPR. She sounds like a real tightwad.

Sort of like Richard Scrushy, Dennis Kozlowski, Ken Lay.... oh wait, no they are anecdotal evidence swinging the other way.

Obviously there are good rich people and bad rich people, just lilke there are good poor people and bod poor people. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say with your one example....?

Or are you just pointing out that the rich can be liberals too?

RhinofromWA · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by laura
oh no, i never said that or indirectly implied that. i am simply saying that a lot of well off men, my father included, ignore some of the unearned privelage that helped give them a leg up into the socio economic class that they are in. and dont get me wrong, my dad has worked harder than any man i have ever met in my life to give me all of the things he could never have. he did pull himself up by his boot straps. what i am saying is its not just hard work that gets most people where they are today. there are all kind of things that factor in.
thats what i mean by uearned privelage.

Help me understand.

By "unearned privelage" you mean luck? :confused:

Or he is a white male over 30? I am not catching the meaning of the "unearned privelage" you write about. It is propbably just me but it would help me understand your point better.....I think

Well off people often can claim luck/timing for their riches. My people are bankrupt and struggling because their gambles didn't play out the way they hoped.

BTW- In my mind I pictured you whining and flailing your arms in this quote

Very preachy mind you.......

because we all know that all poor people do is laze around all day and party all night, and that is why they are poor. if they worked hard they could get rich too. and we all know that rich people slave day in and day out for their money, with out the help of any unearned privelage.

It is very sacrastic ...again I guess I missed the intention of the last part. "Unearned privelage" to me means

....you decided to indirectly state that rich people somehow don't deserve their money as they didn't earn it.

RhinofromWA · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by laura
of course companies that big generally get all kinds of tax cuts and things of that nature so that they dont pay anything and just let the concumers bitch at each other abot whose paying more taxes and why.

You couldn't be more wrong.......... :monkey:

That statement, not matter how many times repeated....is soooooo false. I guess it makes your anger towards large companies feel justified

It is simply false and missleading.

ohio · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
You couldn't be more wrong..........

It is simply false and missleading.

back that up.

companies pay taxes on their profits. this means private companies do their damndest to show ZERO profit every year, thus pay ZERO taxes. It's not hard to do.

public companies have a bit more of a balancing act, because their shareholder value depends largely on profits (EBITDA to be precise), so they have to figure out what share price is worth how much in taxes to them. Often they just reinvest everything to show growth and avoid taxes, leading lots of companies to grow faster than they should. But the point is, they still don't pay taxes.

RhinofromWA · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by ohio
back that up.

companies pay taxes on their profits. this means private companies do their damndest to show ZERO profit every year, thus pay ZERO taxes. It's not hard to do.

public companies have a bit more of a balancing act, because their shareholder value depends largely on profits (EBITDA to be precise), so they have to figure out what share price is worth how much in taxes to them. Often they just reinvest everything to show growth and avoid taxes, leading lots of companies to grow faster than they should. But the point is, they still don't pay taxes.

It isn't like they wave a magic wand and "zippidy do da" all their tax is gone. :confused:

Lets say they reduce their taxable income buy depreciating Assets as fast as they can.....eventually the depreciable assets are used up and there are no more deductions. Double declining balance over straightline....if you must know. If a company shows zero profit every year they aren't doing well. A few years, OK survivable, but over 10? Nope they have to start making money or the company doesn't exist. If the eat company profits up with wages the employee pays the taxes....along with the employers portions.

Reinvesting in a company does not reduce taxes. That is simply false. It will reduce available cash and change it into other assets but it is just an relocation on the Balance sheet. Not a income sheet activity. Simple accounting actually. Reinvesting is after profits have been figured out. It has NO coralation to their tax....except depreciation expense from newly aquired assets. But again, that is a bad way to do business if you are buy assets just for their depreciable qualities. Much like you stated above.

Now you back up business and the zero taxes claim I hear all the time........

fluff · Nov 19, 2003

I hope this thread is still alive in a week or so when I will be able to devote some time to it.

Here are some statements I will back up next week.

Most very wealthy people (millionaires+) inherit their wealth.

Many extremely wealthy people (e.g. Ruper Murdoch) pay less tax than the average wage earner in some tax years.

I can give you several examples of company directors looking after each other;

There are many examples of chief executives doing very poor jobs (and you rarely see them in the office) and getting £1million plus golden parachutes when sacked. Also directors voting themselves massive salaries whilst bankrupting companies funded by shareholders. Not to mention insider trading.

The only guy in the UK ever to recover from senile dementure is Earnest Saunders, ex cheif exec of Guiness who was imprisoned for multi-million pound fraud then released early on compassionate grounds due to his illness from which he then miraculously recovered.

The monied look after the monied. I doubt it's that different over there.

Some of you people need to open your eyes.

As an example look into your beloved leader's career and where his wealth derived from.

Of course all the poor people are lazy beggars and all the rich work hard, isn't that what the joke says?

Or am I taking it too seriously because I see it for the lie that it is?

RhinofromWA · Nov 19, 2003

Early on I tried to make a distinction of 1st generation rich people. They area different breed than the born filthy rich *cough-Kennedy's-cough*

Not all poor people are lazy.........BUT not all of them are driven to improve their status either.

I should be carefull about using the phrase "hard working." Breaking your back in a coal mine or on a construction site or cleaning hotel rooms is hard work but won't make you much $$$. Let us get that out of the way.... Now lazy doesn't mean unable to get off the couch (not that it doesn't happen) but unwilling to sacrifice to better their position. The phrase "You can't help someone who can't help themself" comes to mind.

By Fluff: Many extremely wealthy people (e.g. Ruper Murdoch) pay less tax than the average wage earner in some tax years.

There are many examples of chief executives doing very poor jobs (and you rarely see them in the office) and getting £1million plus golden parachutes when sacked. Also directors voting themselves massive salaries whilst bankrupting companies funded by shareholders. Not to mention insider trading.

The only guy in the UK ever to recover from senile dementure is Earnest Saunders, ex cheif exec of Guiness who was imprisoned for multi-million pound fraud then released early on compassionate grounds due to his illness from which he then miraculously recovered.

"in some tax years"..........you mean when they lose more wealth than what I will earn in my whole lifetime? Then yeah they paid less taxes, BUT they also took a major hit so they don't have to pay taxes.

The rest is dirty high level management dealing that gets themselves and their companies in trouble either with the law or financially.

Never heard of Earnest Saunders. That is kinda funny.....in some way :think:

I always say "Hell, give me General Motors for 6 months and I can run it into the ground.....just make sure you give me an insane amount of money to fire me"......a.k.a. severance package.

fluff · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

"in some tax years"..........you mean when they lose more wealth than what I will earn in my whole lifetime? Then yeah they paid less taxes, BUT they also took a major hit so they don't have to pay taxes.

Nope, I mean in a year when they earn more than most African nations..

C'mon are you really that naive? You seem like a pretty smart guy from a lot of the stuff I've seen from you.

laura · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Help me understand.

By "unearned privelage" you mean luck? I am not catching the meaning of the "unearned privelage" you write about.

i mean being white
being born into a family that isnt stuck in a housing project in the ghetto
going to better schools because of the two
networking with other white people who arent dirt poor.
being born a guy

you have to realize that a lot of people in power now are old. they were around during the civil rights movement. it was not so long ago that this country was legally segregated, and all the privelages that come from being white havent come close to being wiped away.

being born white and/or with money give people insane amounts of unearned privelage that a lot of people slinging burgers at mcdonalds will never have. i am not saying it is a bad thing, i am only saying that hard work isnt everything and if we dont recognize unearned privelage and try to say that everyone has a totally fair chance in life we are only fooling ourselves.

BTW- In my mind I pictured you whining and flailing your arms in this quote Very preachy mind you.......

please, about as preachy as that "joke"

RhinofromWA · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by fluff
Nope, I mean in a year when they earn more than most African nations..

C'mon are you really that naive? You seem like a pretty smart guy from a lot of the stuff I've seen from you.

And since I seem to knot have a clue I am asking you....

How did they achieve this feet of "hiding all this income from taxation..........I am sure teh whole world is wanting to know.

I am simply arguing that they pay more than you believe they do and I have yet to see anything other than accusations that they pay nothing.

While I don't believe I am nieve ...*qualifier* all the time

help me understand. How do they do it?

You seem to have a grip on things. How do they make all this money and not pay taxes......again, how?

hell I am willing to hear how so we can all do it. Let me know so we can all not pay taxes.

RhinofromWA · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by laura
i mean being white
being born into a family that isnt stuck in a housing project in the ghetto
going to better schools because of the two
networking with other white people who arent dirt poor.
being born a guy

you have to realize that a lot of people in power now are old. they were around during the civil rights movement. it was not so long ago that this country was legally segregated, and all the privelages that come from being white havent come close to being wiped away.

being born white and/or with money give people insane amounts of unearned privelage that a lot of people slinging burgers at mcdonalds will never have. i am not saying it is a bad thing, i am only saying that hard work isnt everything and if we dont recognize unearned privelage and try to say that everyone has a totally fair chance in life we are only fooling ourselves.

please, about as preachy as that "joke"

Life isn't fair.........who said it was. Who says, in this day and age people who aren't white, male, etc (come on now) can't do the things they want regardless of where they started in life. Is one more difficult than the other? Probably. Is there some invisible chain keeping them confined to minimum wage jobs? Unless you count other factor like kids, attitude, drive, then no.

When can the victim stand up and blaze his own path?

This seems to be more and more a crutch every time this is brought up....it seems it will never get better. And I can't help and think it is partially in part due to some people don't want it to change.

Again, born with money is something I was not refering to and what I am trying to stay away from. How much does a lower middle class white child have over a lower middle class non-white child in the unearned privelage department? Now adays not much if you think about it. Please choose your words better as "insane amounts of unearned privelage" is kind flame worthy. How dare you shoot down someone who wasn't born in the ghetto and is white, male, etc. They must be a less worthy person....because they don't know what it is to be someone else.

Your statement was far more "preachy" than the joke. Very much so.....'cause I have heard the same line before....the tune never changes. Only the melodramatic delivery.

RhinofromWA · Nov 19, 2003

laura,

I see in many of your posts you seem to protect the victims (a noble deed in itself)

But you seem to blame the non-victims for not being victims. that it is them who are responsible for the victims. That is wrong. You are blaming people with no direct or even a loose conection with the victims.

Part of me sees your anger but part of me is confused with it's placement.

i am not saying it is a bad thing, i am only saying that hard work isnt everything and if we dont recognize unearned privelage and try to say that everyone has a totally fair chance in life we are only fooling ourselves.

Life in its nature will never be fair. If you accept that you will go a long ways. We are all not equals in life, we all come from vastly different backgrounds, but to say that these are impossible to overcome is when you reseort yourself to a life time of being a victim....a victim of verything. Something I see way to much of these days.

Hard work, drive, and a good dose of luck and timing made the rich who they are today........others were born into it when their predecessors accomplished the same thing. Life is a struggle to hopefully end up better than your previous generation. Nothing changes overnight and neither your unearned privelage. It can only be taking one step at a time....bettering our previous attempts kept in check by setbacks to be sure.

Don't give in to the victim mentallity. It is a bottomless pit.

ummbikes · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

Again, born with money is something I was not refering to and what I am trying to stay away from. How much does a lower middle class white child have over a lower middle class non-white child in the unearned privelage department? Now adays not much if you think about it. Please choose your words better as "insane amounts of unearned privelage" is kind flame worthy. How dare you shoot down someone who wasn't born in the ghetto and is white, male, etc. They must be a less worthy person....because they don't know what it is to be someone else.

Sorry to butt in.

The point is Rhino that a small number of poor non-white in proportion to white people go to college. As we creep up on minorites becoming a majority the numbers still remain low for minorities in colleges, board rooms and country clubs.

Our country has a history of oppressing and marginalizing people of color. This has created a society where the haves control most of the resources.

Our country was built on slavery and as that abhorant practice was outlawed it was replaced by the low wages = high profit model.

I hope you do well financially in life. But I will guess you will end up where most educated Americans end up, with a mortage and almost enough money to live on when you retire.

The economic model America uses assures those who already have money will make more.

Like with Bill Gates for instance, poor white millionare steals some code and becomes a billionare.

Not many like him and he had some cash to start with.

RhinofromWA · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by ummbikes
Sorry to butt in.

The point is Rhino that a small number of poor non-white in proportion to white people go to college. As we creep up on minorites becoming a majority the numbers still remain low for minorities in colleges, board rooms and country clubs.

Our country has a history of oppressing and marginalizing people of color. This has created a society where the haves control most of the resources. Our country was built on slavery and as that abhorant practice was outlawed it was replaced by the low wages = high profit model.

I hope you do well financially in life. But I will guess you will end up where most educated Americans end up, with a mortage and almost enough money to live on when you retire.

The economic model America uses assures those who already have money will make more.

Like with Bill Gates for instance, poor white millionare steals some code and becomes a billionare.

Not many like him and he had some cash to start with.

Bill Gates is one of the kids who had the timing and luck to have his idea explode.

The world has a history of slavery......abolished in the US not to long ago (geologically speaking)

Now, why does the minority suffer when it comes to college admittance? Culture brought on by past circumstances. Yes they had a late start here in the US....but as long as the mentality that they are a victim and always will be is retained, the situation won't change. Country clubs and board rooms don't change over night and their diversity will happen....I think people expect change quicker than it can actually happen. if you think it hasn't been changing I think you are somewhat blinded by what you have been taught....or maybe I have lucked out and worked at the right places.

This goes for everyone.....if you resign to being the victim you will continue to be a victim.

My little brother is a victim.....self proclaimed. I am afraid he might always be a "victim" We had the same starting point but he chose to be a victim....I do to sometimes but then I have to check myself. You can't help my brother as he will not change his ways and is always expecting a hand out. This example can be used by everyone just substitute the person.

ummbikes · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
if you think it hasn't been changing I think you are somewhat blinded by what you have been taught....or maybe I have lucked out and worked at the right places.

No, I see it changing. I'm two generations removed from a migrant farm worker. Now I'm almost a degree holder. Plus my kids are high acheivers (brag, brag, brag

).

I think things should be changing faster yes, and by talking about it is at least fresh on our minds.

I'm no fan of people who feel like victims either. I say fight the damn battle even if history is against you.

laura · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
How much does a lower middle class white child have over a lower middle class non-white child in the unearned privelage department? Now adays not much if you think about it. How dare you shoot down someone who wasn't born in the ghetto and is white, male, etc. They must be a less worthy person....because they don't know what it is to be someone else.

Your statement was far more "preachy" than the joke. Very much so.....'cause I have heard the same line before....the tune never changes. Only the melodramatic delivery.

first of all a lower class white child has a lot greater chance of having relatives with money and resources. that is all i will say about that

second of all, i DID NOT shoot some one down for being born white or male. did you even read what i said? you cant control that any more than you can control being born into a ghetto. you are totally turning my words around and getting defensive for no reason. i am white and i was born into a middle class family, how can i shoot down that demographic?

about my statement and the joke. i have heard the line the joke conveys a thousand times too and the tune never changes. its boring and easy to blame the victim and not the system. THE SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK!

you are getting so pissed off for no reason. i am not attacking you because of the color of your skin. nor do i think that you as a white male owe anything to anyone but yourself. you just need to realize how lucky you were to be born not as a minority. be happy, it makes your life much easier.

my whole point is, that i have unearned privelage, being born white and into a family that could send me to school. and the black guy next store has the unearned privelage of being a male. and the rich asian man down the street has the privelage of lots of money. and that a poor black girl in the ghetto has far less of a chance to get out of her situation, not because she is not a hard worker, but because she just does not, and will not ever have the reseources that someone with more unearned privelage than her will have. and just because she stays poor her whole life doenst mean that she didnt work hard. and hard work doesnt always pay off.

RhinofromWA · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by laura
first of all a lower class white child has a lot greater chance of having relatives with money and resources. that is all i will say about that

*edited*

my whole point is, that i have unearned privelage, being born white and into a family that could send me to school. and the black guy next store has the unearned privelage of being a male. and the rich asian man down the street has the privelage of lots of money. and that a poor black girl in the ghetto has far less of a chance to get out of her situation, not because she is not a hard worker, but because she just does not, and will not ever have the reseources that someone with more unearned privelage than her will have. and just because she stays poor her whole life doenst mean that she didnt work hard. and hard work doesnt always pay off.

These days I would think the lower class white kid is no better off than any other. Rich relatives is a stretch....

I agree the system doesn't work (part I edited for brevity) but what is the solution? To give more money?

That leads me to the victimization mentality. I didn't want to say a poor person that stays poor didn't work hard. If that is how I came off, I appologize. But a person will never get rich working a minimum wage job the rest of thier life and the jobs are normally labor intensive occupations. Hard work, by itself, doesn't pay off. Timing, luck, retrying after failures, etc all factor in. These days, less affluent people have access to assistance and education not seen in the past. Even this is no garuantee at success.

Playing the role of the victim will never get someone ahead. It is what is holding them back. When they break free from "everything is happening to them" and start to "make things happen for themselves" is when there is a fundimental change that can initiate growth and advancement in their and future generations.

God help me, I now sound like some politician (if I didn't already). :help:

I am heading home. Good night everyone.

I actually wasn't angry in my posts, and enjoyed hashing back and forth with you Laura. No hard feelings?......now get on those papers you have been putting off.

(I read that in the lounge

)

laura · Nov 19, 2003

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
These days I would think the lower class white kid is no better off than any other. Rich relatives is a stretch....

I agree the system doesn't work (part I edited for brevity) but what is the solution? To give more money?

That leads me to the victimization mentality. I didn't want to say a poor person that stays poor didn't work hard. If that is how I came off, I appologize. But a person will never get rich working a minimum wage job the rest of thier life and the jobs are normally labor intensive occupations. Hard work, by itself, doesn't pay off. Timing, luck, retrying after failures, etc all factor in. These days, less affluent people have access to assistance and education not seen in the past. Even this is no garuantee at success.

Playing the role of the victim will never get someone ahead. It is what is holding them back. When they break free from "everything is happening to them" and start to "make things happen for themselves" is when there is a fundimental change that can initiate growth and advancement in their and future generations.

God help me, I now sound like some politician (if I didn't already).

I am heading home. Good night everyone.

I actually wasn't angry in my posts, and enjoyed hashing back and forth with you Laura. No hard feelings?......now get on those papers you have been putting off. (I read that in the lounge )

alright, back on track........

i dont know what the solution is. that is for sure. i wish that with on swoop i could take all my desire to change things and just do it. i havent given up hope on that happening. and the victim mentallity certainly wont work. im glad you werent angry and i hope that i clarified what i was saying. white men aren't the devil.

Education

Not the sharpest tool in the shed

Chimp

The Full Dopey

MOTHER HEN

Don't mess with the Santas

Brevity R Us

Don't mess with the Santas

Brevity R Us

Don't mess with the Santas

Brevity R Us

Don't mess with the Santas

DH_Laura

Brevity R Us

DH_Laura

Brevity R Us

DH_Laura

DH_Laura

talks too much

DH_Laura

Monkey

resident influencer

talks too much

The Fresno Kid

Brevity R Us

Brevity R Us

The Fresno Kid

Brevity R Us

Monkey Turbo

Brevity R Us

Monkey Turbo

DH_Laura

Brevity R Us

Brevity R Us

Brevity R Us

Don't mess with the Santas

Brevity R Us

Don't mess with the Santas

DH_Laura

Brevity R Us

DH_Laura