[Silver]

cool...so now we have to be a psychiatrist too!

add that to the 50 hats the public expects us to wear.

-social worker
-marriage counselor
-track star
-competitive level shooter
-EMT
-Hazmat specialist
-Lawyer
-Bomb technician
-Juvenile counselor
-Admin clerk
-Professional driver
-Public punching bag
-Defensive tactics specialist
-........................................................

all for about half of what a good truck driver can make! who wouldn't want this job!

for the record: an autistic person can whoop your ass just as bad as someone without a social/mental handicap.

So torturing retarded kids is ok because you're afraid?

Keep those standards high!

 

[manimal]

So torturing retarded kids is ok because you're afraid?

Keep those standards high!

given a 15 second observation period during your approach to a suspicious subject could you tell the difference between someone with autism and a paranoid schizophrenic off his meds? how many times have you been attacked by someone with a mental handicap? i've been assaulted by a mentally handicapped person and i had to use force to win the fight. i didn't charge him with assault on a government official because, after i had him in handcuffs, it became apparent that he wasn't all there but i sure as hell am not going to have my ass beat just because the guy assaulting me is handicapped. if we know before-hand that the subject is handicapped we can handle it differently but you cannot expect officers to be street-side emergency psychiatrist and diagnose a mental illness before taking action. i know for sure that you, silver, couldn't do it in the time constraints that we as officers must make decisions like that.
we have recently begun training on how to detect and handle excited delirium patients and that is much easier than determining if someone is autistic (usually the running naked, incoherent shouting, and superhuman strength tend to give it away).
so yes, it's tragic that these autistic persons were treated as they were because they probably didn't know any better but a reasonable society can't expect officers to handle the situation as if they are experts in the field of autism/psychology either.

 

[Pesqueeb]

cool...so now we have to be a psychiatrist too!

add that to the 50 hats the public expects us to wear.

-social worker
-marriage counselor
-track star
-competitive level shooter
-EMT
-Hazmat specialist
-Lawyer
-Bomb technician
-Juvenile counselor
-Admin clerk
-Professional driver
-Public punching bag
-Defensive tactics specialist
-........................................................

all for about half of what a good truck driver can make! who wouldn't want this job!

for the record: an autistic person can whoop your ass just as bad as someone without a social/mental handicap.

Nobody made you become a cop........

 

[manimal]

Nobody made you become a cop........

typical response.


of course no one made me become a cop...that's exactly the point. most of us do this job because it beats the hell out of living in a cubicle farm and is a front row seat to the best show on earth. my point is that the public expects white collar results at blue collar hiring standards and pay.

 

[Da Peach]

I guess you do, indeed, get what you pay for.

 

[eric strt6]

I bet all you guys screaming eff da police are gonna be the first ones when **** goes wrong in your lives dialing 911 and screaming for MR Policeman and Mr Fireman to come make your life all better again because you can't or won't deal with it.

 

[Silver]

I bet all you guys screaming eff da police are gonna be the first ones when **** goes wrong in lives dialing 911 and screaming for MR Policeman and Mr Fireman to come make your life all better again because you can't or won't deal with it.

Cool story bro,

I walked into the barber the other day, and he went off on me. "Every time your hair gets too long, you come in here and expect me to deal with it!"

Wait, no, he didn't. Because he's not a retard.

 

[Pesqueeb]

typical response.


of course no one made me become a cop...that's exactly the point. most of us do this job because it beats the hell out of living in a cubicle farm and is a front row seat to the best show on earth. my point is that the public expects white collar results at blue collar hiring standards and pay.

For a guy who loves his job so much you sure do an awful lot of whining about it.

 

[manimal]

For a guy who loves his job so much you sure do an awful lot of whining about it.

LOVE my job. hate people who don't have what it takes to do my job yet think they know how to do it better. it's the equivalent of going into surgery and telling the surgeon that he should have removed about an inch more of intestine because you saw the same procedure on tv and know better than he does.

or better yet....it's like someone telling silver what it's probably like to be raped by a priest when he's the friggin expert!

 

[Silver]

LOVE my job. hate people who don't have what it takes to do my job yet think they know how to do it better. it's the equivalent of going into surgery and telling the surgeon that he should have removed about an inch more of intestine because you saw the same procedure on tv and know better than he does.

or better yet....it's like someone telling silver what it's probably like to be raped by a priest when he's the friggin expert!

Ha, a rape or a gay joke. You're the one who takes his kids to church. What makes you think that non-Catholic clergy are less likely to rape kids?

Anyways, back onto the topic...you have no trouble throwing your two cents into the ring on other topics. What makes you think that your trade is immune to criticism?

(Actually, police misbehavior and the indiscretions of Catholic priests aren't really that different in how they get handled, are they? It's always an internal investigation, what the accuser is vilified and not believed, and the omerta kicks in.)

 

[manimal]

Ha, a rape or a gay joke. You're the one who takes his kids to church. What makes you think that non-Catholic clergy are less likely to rape kids?

Anyways, back onto the topic...you have no trouble throwing your two cents into the ring on other topics. What makes you think that your trade is immune to criticism?

(Actually, police misbehavior and the indiscretions of Catholic priests aren't really that different in how they get handled, are they? It's always an internal investigation, what the accuser is vilified and not believed, and the omerta kicks in.)

EDUCATED criticism isn't a problem and is necessary for law enforcement to stay in check. it is the gross ignorance of the general public about what we do and how/why we do it that causes the problems when people, including the media, make rash accusations from the pulpit of 20/20 hindsight before the courts have had a chance to view the incident from the reasonableness standard.

 

[sanjuro]

Ha, a rape or a gay joke. You're the one who takes his kids to church. What makes you think that non-Catholic clergy are less likely to rape kids?

Anyways, back onto the topic...you have no trouble throwing your two cents into the ring on other topics. What makes you think that your trade is immune to criticism?

(Actually, police misbehavior and the indiscretions of Catholic priests aren't really that different in how they get handled, are they? It's always an internal investigation, what the accuser is vilified and not believed, and the omerta kicks in.)

Wha?

The police is the most criticized municipal department, and there is no second place.

The police are the most visible, the most discussed, the most fictionalized, and deal with the public more than any other department.

And with that in mind, there are several notable police abuse cases which I believe have been handled correctly, from Abner Louima, Ryan Moats to yes, even Oscar Grant.

However, I also believe there have been decades of unreported, covered-up abuse, such as Jon Burge and the Danziger Bridge. This is totally unacceptable, and the police as individuals and as a collective organization, should take a no-tolerance stance.

Ultimately, I believe it goes back to the quality of the police and the politicians. Danziger Bridge happened because of lousy cops, no authority, and zero political support.

 

[Silver]

Wha?

I should have inserted a "should" in the immune to criticism part. I didn't mean to say that the police are immune to criticism.

Manimal's argument is the same old bull**** about how you can't effectively criticize something unless you've done it.

 

[manimal]

Manimal's argument is the same old bull**** about how you can't effectively criticize something unless you've done it.

how is my argument bull****? can i observe and criticize the treatment of a trauma patient in the ER because i've seen every episode of ER and House? Legally, yes..i can say whatever i want but those who know better would consider me an idiot and write off my rants. why is this not the case for law enforcement matters?

 

[MMike]

EDUCATED criticism isn't a problem and is necessary for law enforcement to stay in check. it is the gross ignorance of the general public about what we do and how/why we do it that causes the problems when people, including the media, make rash accusations from the pulpit of 20/20 hindsight before the courts have had a chance to view the incident from the reasonableness standard.

You should realize that you aren't special. Woohoo. You're a cop. Big deal.

You keep accusing people of not knowing what's it like man......It's your workplace. deal with it. If I mess up at my job, I hear about it. If you mess up at yours.....well it's just because you're misunderstood.

 

[MMike]

I bet all you guys screaming eff da police are gonna be the first ones when **** goes wrong in your lives dialing 911 and screaming for MR Policeman and Mr Fireman to come make your life all better again because you can't or won't deal with it.

Well I DO pay taxes don't I?

 

[manimal]

You should realize that you aren't special. Woohoo. You're a cop. Big deal.

You keep accusing people of not knowing what's it like man......It's your workplace. deal with it. If I mess up at my job, I hear about it. If you mess up at yours.....well it's just because you're misunderstood.

yup...you're an idiot. here's the difference and the whole point: if you screw up your TPS report your boss chews you out and you fix it. If an officer has to use force on someone and it's justified by policy and by law, the officer will still catch grief about it from the very tax payers who employ him for doing exactly what he's paid to do....even when it's done directly by the book! if you screw up at work can you lose your house and go to jail? you see where i'm going with this....we tend to get pretty touchy over cockholsters like yourself automatically assuming that we're wrong in any use of force that isn't blatantly necessary. it's a catch 22 for us....we're not special and we know that..trust me, every douche that gets a ticket reminds us of it with dickhead comments like "i pay your salary".
this is exactly why there is a huge disconnect between cops and the ignorant public, the "us vs. them" mentality...because you make it that way.

edit: most cops wouldn't bother with debating this bs, but as a former cop hater who never planned on doing this job, my intent is to try and help you understand what it's like on the other side of a profession that's always on the forefront of social politics. as much as silver may get under my skin i at least respect him as a very educated person and take in what i can to learn from him on some matters and agree to disagree on others...but mmike is another story. nothing of merit to add other than personal bias to LEO's, so with that i'm done.

 

[Serial Midget]

I suppose, since you're finished, I'll highlight why I can no longer take you seriously. Not that it matters, I just think you should have better emotional control.

yup...you're an idiot ... cockholsters like yourself ... the ignorant public ... the "us vs. them ... you make it that way ...

If mmike gets you this riled, this easily...

 

[MMike]

given a 15 second observation period during your approach to a suspicious subject could you tell the difference between someone with autism and a paranoid schizophrenic off his meds? how many times have you been attacked by someone with a mental handicap? i've been assaulted by a mentally handicapped person and i had to use force to win the fight. i didn't charge him with assault on a government official because, after i had him in handcuffs, it became apparent that he wasn't all there but i sure as hell am not going to have my ass beat just because the guy assaulting me is handicapped. if we know before-hand that the subject is handicapped we can handle it differently but you cannot expect officers to be street-side emergency psychiatrist and diagnose a mental illness before taking action. i know for sure that you, silver, couldn't do it in the time constraints that we as officers must make decisions like that.
we have recently begun training on how to detect and handle excited delirium patients and that is much easier than determining if someone is autistic (usually the running naked, incoherent shouting, and superhuman strength tend to give it away).
so yes, it's tragic that these autistic persons were treated as they were because they probably didn't know any better but a reasonable society can't expect officers to handle the situation as if they are experts in the field of autism/psychology either.

Dare we get back to the orginal point....I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm going to speculate that in the case of the kid who got his ass beat by a cop, it can be nearly guaranteed that he was sitting minding his ouwn business. the last thing people with autism want to do is to engage a stranger. The cop didn't like the look of him. (skin colour and otherwise), and decided to teach the freak a lesson.

That's not a matter of being an expert in autism. Once again I know I wasn't there, but there's no way the kid started it. So the cop was just being an asshole.

Which ties back in....it has been my experience that people that want to be cops, are largely a-holes. They are the type that want to be allowed to beat people up. And not that there isn't a need for that. But those who have it deep down that want to help others, become firefighters and EMT's. They actually WANT to save people. Cops however are looking for a free pass to beat people up. And as I said, there is a need. But don't try to shroud that in some sort of noble cause that we "office dwellers" couldn't POSSIBLY understand.

 

[stevew]

and EMT's.

the funny thing is....well in the south....i have yet to see a physically fit EMT...the pear shape is popular among the brotherhood down here....how much assistance can you provide when getting in and out of the truck is a houdini like feat?

 

[Dartman]

I consider Manimal's views with very much weight here since he is on the front lines and doing a job where I would just pull out my gun and shoot people where instead he makes them do the River Dance. He's one of the good ones and yes I think he truly wants the best for people like firefighters and EMT's and isn't in it just to crack heads.

I hope MMike and Silver are comfortable under the protection public servants like Manimal provide. You're both lumping them all into one group saying they're all bad. Wrong, very wrong.

You should both go back and re-read his posts without your prejudicial BS.

 

[sanjuro]

Which ties back in....it has been my experience that people that want to be cops, are largely a-holes. They are the type that want to be allowed to beat people up. And not that there isn't a need for that. But those who have it deep down that want to help others, become firefighters and EMT's. They actually WANT to save people. Cops however are looking for a free pass to beat people up. And as I said, there is a need. But don't try to shroud that in some sort of noble cause that we "office dwellers" couldn't POSSIBLY understand.

Oh man.

How many cops do you know, personally? Three maybe?

 

[sanjuro]

Police have a chain of command, internal affairs division, civilian review boards, courts, politicians, newspapers, and the public watching them.

I have my boss and his boss.

 

[manimal]

Dare we get back to the orginal point....I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm going to speculate that in the case of the kid who got his ass beat by a cop, it can be nearly guaranteed that he was sitting minding his ouwn business. the last thing people with autism want to do is to engage a stranger. The cop didn't like the look of him. (skin colour and otherwise), and decided to teach the freak a lesson.

That's not a matter of being an expert in autism. Once again I know I wasn't there, but there's no way the kid started it. So the cop was just being an asshole.

Which ties back in....it has been my experience that people that want to be cops, are largely a-holes. They are the type that want to be allowed to beat people up. And not that there isn't a need for that. But those who have it deep down that want to help others, become firefighters and EMT's. They actually WANT to save people. Cops however are looking for a free pass to beat people up. And as I said, there is a need. But don't try to shroud that in some sort of noble cause that we "office dwellers" couldn't POSSIBLY understand.

excellent opinion void of ANY factual basis or actual experience dealing with "strangers" on the street. again, your bias and misconstrued idea of who and what cops are will not allow you to see it any other way. you see the uniform and you assume asshole that just wants fight (trust me...as a protective tactics instructor, there are A LOT of cops who will do anything to avoid having to fight). i strongly implore you to do a ride along (if that's allowed in your area), your opinion will likely be drastically altered.

And as I said, there is a need. But don't try to shroud that in some sort of noble cause that we "office dwellers" couldn't POSSIBLY understand.

fvck you and your high horse. when was the last time you transported a 5 year old kid to the ER with lacerations to his back because he was trying to protect his mother from her raging boyfriend while he cut her throat down to her spine ....and then find a way to answer him when he asks if his mom is ok. guess what...the boyfriend made it to jail without a scratch after he was caught a few blocks away.
yeah, you're right, you will never understand. again, fvck you...seriously.

 

[eric strt6]

forget it Manimal you can't argue with a brick.

 

[ohio]

Oh man.

How many cops do you know, personally? Three maybe?

There are some really good cops out there. I think Manimal is one of them, and I've had a more than a handful of positive interactions with cops over the years. But let's be real, there IS an attraction to being in a position of authority, the be able to handle weapons, to be in high risk situations, to learn defensive tactics and be authorized in use of force... and the folks that are attracted to the profession for THOSE reasons stand a strong chance of being total ****wads.

Unfortunately, every kid from my highschool class that went into law enforcement falls into that underachieving-dickwad-with-a-chip-on-his-shoulder category. Maybe it's a small town thing, because every cop in SF I've met has been totally stand-up.

So yeah, I feel bad for the good ones, but their response to criticism should be to get rid of the bad ones, not lash out at a public distrusting folks who are sworn to serve and protect but sometimes (often?) have other motivations. Teaching is a noble, underpaid, thankless profession too. Does that mean that teachers are immune to being angry ****sticks that do more harm than good?

 

[valve bouncer]

So yeah, I feel bad for the good ones, but their response to criticism should be to get rid of the bad ones, not lash out at a public distrusting folks who are sworn to serve and protect but sometimes (often?) have other motivations. Teaching is a noble, underpaid, thankless profession too. Does that mean that teachers are immune to being angry ****sticks that do more harm than good?

Interesting you referenced teaching there, a profession probably more vital to society than almost any other. Ironic then that in the past Manimal has had no problem criticising those in the academic ivory tower. I think you've got your utility belt cinched on a bit too tight there Manimal, your profession attracts arseholes just like teaching attracts know-it-all wankers and medicine attracts arrogant pricks.
And remember people never, ever talk to the cops.

 

[Silver]

how is my argument bull****? can i observe and criticize the treatment of a trauma patient in the ER because i've seen every episode of ER and House? Legally, yes..i can say whatever i want but those who know better would consider me an idiot and write off my rants. why is this not the case for law enforcement matters?

When I start threads criticizing cops because of behavior that I saw on Law and Order, get back to me, ok?

What you're essentially saying is akin to arguing that if a surgeon amputates the wrong foot on a diabetic, you really need to be another surgeon who understands the stress and working conditions before you can make an informed comment. Me, personally, I'd just like to see the doctor cut off the right goddamned foot in the first place.

(Another aside: Medicine has the same problem that policing does, with regards to bad actors.)

 

[Silver]

I hope MMike and Silver are comfortable under the protection public servants like Manimal provide. You're both lumping them all into one group saying they're all bad. Wrong, very wrong.

You should both go back and re-read his posts without your prejudicial BS.

I've never once implied that all police officers are bad.

The problem is the good ones don't actively get rid of the bad ones. See ohio's post.

 

[sanjuro]

There are some really good cops out there. I think Manimal is one of them, and I've had a more than a handful of positive interactions with cops over the years. But let's be real, there IS an attraction to being in a position of authority, the be able to handle weapons, to be in high risk situations, to learn defensive tactics and be authorized in use of force... and the folks that are attracted to the profession for THOSE reasons stand a strong chance of being total ****wads.

Unfortunately, every kid from my highschool class that went into law enforcement falls into that underachieving-dickwad-with-a-chip-on-his-shoulder category. Maybe it's a small town thing, because every cop in SF I've met has been totally stand-up.

So yeah, I feel bad for the good ones, but their response to criticism should be to get rid of the bad ones, not lash out at a public distrusting folks who are sworn to serve and protect but sometimes (often?) have other motivations. Teaching is a noble, underpaid, thankless profession too. Does that mean that teachers are immune to being angry ****sticks that do more harm than good?

I thought about quality of police officer when I noticed the Portland PD requires you to have a degree or lots of experience before applying.

The higher quality of cop you recruit, the better the police force.

The reality is that smaller towns have to take who they can get, so naturally the cops are worse there.

 

[Silver]

I thought about quality of police officer when I noticed the Portland PD requires you to have a degree or lots of experience before applying.

The higher quality of cop you recruit, the better the police force.

The reality is that smaller towns have to take who they can get, so naturally the cops are worse there.

I don't know if that is true.

Look at Wall Street...the educational quality should be there, right? Does working on Wall Street turn you into an amoral profit seeker, or do amoral profit seekers apply to work on Wall Street in higher numbers?

There are a lot of really terrible and horrible people who attain educational degrees. In my personal experience, the construction workers I spent the summer with were much more ethical than the business students I spent my winters with. Of course, we all know what anecdotes are worth...

 

[sanjuro]

I don't know if that is true.

Look at Wall Street...the educational quality should be there, right? Does working on Wall Street turn you into an amoral profit seeker, or do amoral profit seekers apply to work on Wall Street in higher numbers?

There are a lot of really terrible and horrible people who attain educational degrees. In my personal experience, the construction workers I spent the summer with were much more ethical than the business students I spent my winters with. Of course, we all know what anecdotes are worth...

Funny you mention that because the guy who sold me a stolen bike in HS is now the CEO of Citibank Credit Cards.

I have no foolproof formula for police success, but the difference is that bankers are in it for cash, and the smarter the banker, the more money you get.

With cops, obviously money is not the primary motivation.

I'm sure tomorrow there will be a scandal involving a LEO with a Ph.D.

 

[MMike]

i strongly implore you to do a ride along (if that's allowed in your area), your opinion will likely be drastically altered.

Why would I do that? I have no interst in empathizing. 8 hours driving in circles in a car with a stranger I have nothing in common with? Sign me up. I care as much about the intricacies of your job as you do about mine.

fvck you and your high horse. when was the last time you transported a 5 year old kid to the ER with lacerations to his back because he was trying to protect his mother from her raging boyfriend while he cut her throat down to her spine ....and then find a way to answer him when he asks if his mom is ok. guess what...the boyfriend made it to jail without a scratch after he was caught a few blocks away.
yeah, you're right, you will never understand. again, fvck you...seriously.

yes yes.....**** me. But you're doing it again. "You can't understand man....". That is some tragic ****. I don't empathize. I can't, nor do I wish to. I fully admit I wouldn't be able to handle it. (Does that help at all?)

But again....going back to my original post, a fvcktard bully of a cop beat up a kid for no reason. How can that be excused? The cop has seen so much bad ****, that he instinctively beats the hell out of anything that doesn't look right?

There IS NO EXCUSE for what happened to that kid. It cannot be justified. And if you think it can, then you're as big of an ignorant asshole as me. Just a different brand.

 

[MMike]

Interesting you referenced teaching there, a profession probably more vital to society than almost any other. Ironic then that in the past Manimal has had no problem criticising those in the academic ivory tower.

Indeed. The episode with the class taught by the liberal hippy that didn't want him to have his gun in the classroom...in HER classroom.....how dare she! Or when he didn't attend a lecture or complete an assignment of some sort because he attended a police memorial of some sort...how dare she penalize him?? Completely ridiculous.

And remember people never, ever talk to the cops.

I almost never say anything when I've gotten pulled over for speeding. The ONE positive experience I did have with a cop, was when a WA state trooper pulled me over for speeding but I had my shiny new Heckler on the back. So he let me off with a warning. (BIKE CONTENT!)

But that youtube video of the lawyer explaining why you should never say ANYTHING without your lawyer is freaking brilliant.

 

[$tinkle]

I wasn't there, but there's no way the kid started it. So the cop was just being an asshole.

seems the major issue you have here is that the kid has no self-filtering mechanism or proper understanding of the situation - mainly that he's the cause of it - but the cop does, and policy should be that he kow to the kid's wishes (however undefined, inappropriate, or dangerous to him/others it may be).

did i get that right?

 

[stevew]

as much as i got pulled over/stopped for looking like the son of charles manson when i lived in tn/co....it never gave me a reason not to trust them.

just saying.

 

[Silver]

seems the major issue you have here is that the kid has no self-filtering mechanism or proper understanding of the situation - mainly that he's the cause of it - but the cop does, and policy should be that he kow to the kid's wishes (however undefined, inappropriate, or dangerous to him/others it may be).

did i get that right?

The problem is there are two autism stories. The second one the police officer asserts that he was dealing with a violent person, but the first story has no such assertion.

Which means we all know how the first one went down...respect my authoritai! The autistic kid didn't, so he got juiced.

 

[valve bouncer]

seems the major issue you have here is that the kid has no self-filtering mechanism or proper understanding of the situation - mainly that he's the cause of it - but the cop does, and policy should be that he kow to the kid's wishes (however undefined, inappropriate, or dangerous to him/others it may be).

did i get that right?

No. Speaking for myself I find the police policy of escalation to be the problem. You've got kids right? One of the main things you've got to teach them is that one size does not fit all and thinking something through before acting is generally a sound policy. This modern mantra that the "situation must be controlled at all times" is lunacy when dealing with the public and it's inevitable that stuff like this will happen.
Perhaps Manimal can tell us his department's policy on, for example, the use of handcuffs?

 

[$tinkle]

No. Speaking for myself I find the police policy of escalation to be the problem. You've got kids right? One of the main things you've got to teach them is that one size does not fit all and thinking something through before acting is generally a sound policy. This modern mantra that the "situation must be controlled at all times" is lunacy when dealing with the public and it's inevitable that stuff like this will happen.
Perhaps Manimal can tell us his department's policy on, for example, the use of handcuffs?

good points.

the use of handcuffs i believe addresses the problem of escalation (but not correctly, in my lay opinion)

but when you have limited time & materials and still have to meet 100% success, well, you get headlines like these

 

[Toshi]

Why would I do that? I have no interst in empathizing. 8 hours driving in circles in a car with a stranger I have nothing in common with? Sign me up. I care as much about the intricacies of your job as you do about mine.

Must spread rep.