Eff da po-lice some more
- Thread starter MMike
- Start date
Remember the dangerous excuse for LEO apologists, well they're still not on the list:
http://time.com/4326676/dangerous-jobs-america/
http://time.com/4326676/dangerous-jobs-america/
Might be this afternoon...
This Minnesota shooting is another case to support camera on all police. All the time.
The video the deceased's girlfriend transmitted is compelling of course, but it shows nothing aside from the aftermath of the shooting. Everyone seems to be racing to the conclusion that he was shot without cause.
The video the deceased's girlfriend transmitted is compelling of course, but it shows nothing aside from the aftermath of the shooting. Everyone seems to be racing to the conclusion that he was shot without cause.
Police chief David Brown has said that the suspect who was shooting at police, and with whom police were negotiating, told police some of his motives.
In Dallas police chief David Brown’s words:
The suspect said he was upset about Black Lives Matter. He said he was upset about the recent police shootings. The suspect said he was upset at white people the suspect said he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.
Things aren't going to get better, are they? How long until Trump comes out with a blatantly racist statement aimed at African Americans?
In Dallas police chief David Brown’s words:
The suspect said he was upset about Black Lives Matter. He said he was upset about the recent police shootings. The suspect said he was upset at white people the suspect said he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.
Things aren't going to get better, are they? How long until Trump comes out with a blatantly racist statement aimed at African Americans?
There's no question as to why this happened. The police (general I know) have created a militarized, we're better then you/you're the enemy, mentality and now that video is more prevalent it's becoming publicized and people are getting angry.
There have always been statements from minority populations that police are brutal, racist, and focus on them. Now we're starting to see it very publicly.
That surplus was courtesy of the multi-trillion dollar Iraq war to boost global terrorism and terrorist organizations like Cheney's Haliburton. It worked
sorry stoney but that's ridiculous.
AND, "getting angry" is no justification for a sniper, who "wanted to kill white people, especially white police", killing a bunch of people.
The right wants a strong state government and smaller federal government. So do you want that or a larger federal budget/government paying for trillions in unused equipment sitting in warehouses? Can't complain about both.
The US is a land of the police. Just in one short 1/4 miles section of the Summer street in Boston, you can frequently see these police cars, sometimes all of them at the same time if you are lucky:
I am quite sure all these Police units have a SWAT team each.
- Boston Police
- State Police
- Amtrak Police
- Transit Police
- Federal Reserve Police
- US Postal Police
- Massport & Seaport Police
- Homeland Security Police
I am quite sure all these Police units have a SWAT team each.
But, whats your point exactly?
The police are supposed to be present, and capable, and I'd much rather have the police over gunned then out gunned.
The police are supposed to be present, and capable, and I'd much rather have the police over gunned then out gunned.
where was i complaining?
Terrorism for the American Revolution and women's rights (both against the British) worked and doesn't have strong modern day condemnation. Why is terrorism acceptable when Americans or women were being oppressed, but not minorities?
https://history.blog.gov.uk/2013/07/04/mrs-pankhurst-lloyd-george-suffragette-militancy/
Angry + mental issues = snipers
I was pretty distraught when I saw that in the news this morning. But I have to admit, I'm a little surprised it took so long to happen. I think this comment I screen grabbed from the NYT comments section pretty much sums it up (minus the afghanistan part):
They don't sell it. They give it away, from carbines to armored personnel carriers. It's ridiculous.
I know a mixed race couple locally. Last night the wife posted something on FB about her 6 year old son saying "Mommy, I don't want to be a black man" because the news was on. This couldn't have been but minutes before the shootings in Dallas.
This picture is floating near the top of the first page on Reddit right now. I know the institution of policing gets a lot of grief and scrutiny here, and quite rightfully so IMO, but these officers are people too, trying to do a mostly thankless job to the best of their abilities, and a bunch of them died last night.
A smarter man than me might be able to comment on the dichotomy of the two above paragraphs. I've got nothing but a sense of loss, anger, and failure. As a nation, and a people, we are rudderless and adrift. Dark days are coming.
I won't even pretend like I have any kind of clue about how to find a solution, but America, we need to have a serious talk about race, and guns. And until we do, none of this is going to change. We will repeat these scenes over and over and over. How many more dead black men? How many more dead kids? How many more dead cops?
This picture is floating near the top of the first page on Reddit right now. I know the institution of policing gets a lot of grief and scrutiny here, and quite rightfully so IMO, but these officers are people too, trying to do a mostly thankless job to the best of their abilities, and a bunch of them died last night.
A smarter man than me might be able to comment on the dichotomy of the two above paragraphs. I've got nothing but a sense of loss, anger, and failure. As a nation, and a people, we are rudderless and adrift. Dark days are coming.
I won't even pretend like I have any kind of clue about how to find a solution, but America, we need to have a serious talk about race, and guns. And until we do, none of this is going to change. We will repeat these scenes over and over and over. How many more dead black men? How many more dead kids? How many more dead cops?
Starve his ass out. Set up a safe perimeter and let him dehydrate. It'll take 3-4 days in Dallas. Reality is, he wasn't going to make it out alive, no matter what.Also, we need to talk about this:
I know it's still early and more may come of this, and that this suspect in all likely hood wasn't going to just come out and surrender peacefully, but really? Are we even trying to pretend anymore that due process matters anymore?
My thoughts exactly. Like what if they sent it into the wrong apartment?Also, we need to talk about this:
I know it's still early and more may come of this, and that this suspect in all likely hood wasn't going to just come out and surrender peacefully, but really? Are we even trying to pretend anymore that due process matters anymore?
This guy already admitted to murders and seemed to be hell bent on more. Due process aside, those cops can only be expected to do so much / take so much risk in order to take such a person in alive.
Clearly.
I recognize that this suspect was clearly a man who probably didn't think much of the police or "the system" as it were, and sending in the bomb carrying robot proved him right. This was clearly a dangerous man. But if we are to espouse the belief that officers of "the law", are there to act in support of, and carry out "the law" as it is codified and as we claim to support it, if we believe in Justice, with a capital "J", that means that officers will always be in danger. If this suspect ran out of his hidey-hole to die in a hail of gun fire, than fine, so be it. But this is something else. What happened here is the purposeful, and with intent, extra-judicial killing of an (I suppose until proven else-wise) American citizen with a land based drone. I find that incredibly frightening.
@Pesqueeb I've noticed in the past several years a progression in law enforcement to use weapons sooner on a suspect than in years past. Cops seem to be quick to draw on someone as opposed to engage them physically. Used to be, you'd fear getting your ass beat by po-po, now you might get tazed or shot.
Illegal just like the MOVE bombing in Philly and society suffers for it again. Nobody was ever punished for that, maybe someone will be this time with the whole world looking this time.
http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/05/13/406243272/im-from-philly-30-years-later-im-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-the-move-bombing
Sincere question:
Allegedly the sniper was shot repeatedly and was determined to be wearing body armor; would it be less frightening if one of the cops had the opportunity to shoot him in the face and had done so?
I wouldn't call the killing of a guy who just shot eleven people and wasn't giving himself up "extra-judicial". As you said, clearly a dangerous man.
There DOES come a point where the defense of the public and police has to take precedent over the right to a speedy trial for the sniper. The cops cannot be expected to sacrifice themselves if they had (and I think they probably did) reason to believe this guy had the will and ability to keep killing more people.
That's an interesting question, and I tend to agree with your position on how to deal with a guy who just killed 5 (as of now) people and shot several others. Maybe communicate to him that he should surrender immediately or deadly force will be used in short order, which as far as I know, they actually did. That said, I wonder if something like tear gas or concussion grenades could be used in lieu of robo-bomb? I clearly don't know all the risks involved in attempting to use non-lethal methods to incapacitate an armed suspect, so it may not have been a viable option. Regardless, the whole thing super sucks and its sadly ironic that cops were killed who were there to make sure the protest march could be conducted peacefully.
Police violate the constitution, arrest flag burner: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/07/man-faces-arrest-death-threats-after-posting-flag-burning-pics-on-facebook/
This is one of the Eternal Questions, is it not?
"what price freedom?"
How much of your soul do you trade when an ideal becomes inconvenient?
And what was the hurry? I'm not privy to any of the details, but they had this guy cornered right? They were talking to him. He was pinned down enough that they could kill him with robo-bomb and they had a long enough chat to find out they he really, really, didn't like white people. This is the sort of shit that conspiracies are born out of. Somewhere out there, RenegadeRick is fapping as fast and as hard as his little arms will let him while Alex Jones tells him about how Obama has orchestrated this whole thing so he can have a third term.
Inconvenient?
You sound like you think the police wanted to be in that situation, and make that life/death decision. Just because you consider something ideal doesn't mean it's in any way achievable or reasonable in some situations.
Questioning what happened is so easy for "us" and should happen. I just don't think it's appropriate to cast judgement on those the people who were involved.
What else needed to happen to justify the police killing the sniper? So let's say they have him surrounded, talking to him (which should imply a desire to de-escalate) and he shoots one more cop or bystander. Do the police then talk to him some more and try to sound like they really, really mean it this time? That's not a reasonable expectation.
The police chief (?) said they had no option. I want to believe that until I hear evidence otherwise.
You can't hurry justice, but revenge obviously can be given one hell of a hurry up.....
To be honest, when I heard late last night that one of the snipers had been cornered and was involved in a standoff, I knew that dude was not going to be taken alive. It seems highly unlikely that LEOs have any interest in arresting a suspect who just attacked them. Not condoning it, just saying it's more or less an expected outcome.
And as far as the robot bomb goes, ask a combat vet how they would handle a shooter with military grade weaponry.
And as far as the robot bomb goes, ask a combat vet how they would handle a shooter with military grade weaponry.
Airstrike or artillery.
FWIW, I meant "How much of your soul do you trade when an ideal becomes inconvenient?" in a macro sense of our beliefs and ideals. Not in this particular tiny niche of urban Dallas last night.
I don't mean to imply that the cops wanted to be there. I'm sure that every one in what must have been an amazingly intense situation was doing the best they could with the tools they were given. You're right in saying that we don't know what happened in that room (parking garage?). Maybe some sort of wild circumstance was occurring to which we are unaware. Certainly there are plenty of examples of police snipers killing suspects, in bank hold ups, hostage situations, etc, where the suspect clearly has intentions of more harm and is capable of delivering on said harm. If something like this was occurring, then only the method of deescalation is unique. However, if that was not the case, then I think we've crossed a new and frightening bridge.
That said, you're not incorrect when you say that "Questioning what happened is so easy for "us"", and it might not be "appropriate to cast judgement on those the people who were involved." But the question then becomes, when is it, and by what means? Do we extend them then benefit of the doubt that the Constitution and due process afford them? Of course we do. But do we do that just because they are the "good guys", or do we do that because it is the "right thing to do"? It is my opinion that everyone, no matter how evil, no matter how heinous the crime, is supposed to be afforded the same rights. The same "inalienable rights". If only the "good guys" get it, then it really means nothing, and all of society become subject to the whims of who ever is deciding who the "good guys" are.
Kinda confirms that police is military force in this country, not a civic service.