Going through the citizens academy in Beaverton was one of the best things I did when I lived there. Not only did I meet a lot of solid officers and learn a lot about how they work, but I learned about the town, too.
Eff da po-lice some more
- Thread starter MMike
- Start date
Going through the citizens academy in Beaverton was one of the best things I did when I lived there. Not only did I meet a lot of solid officers and learn a lot about how they work, but I learned about the town, too.
Sorry, but every first second and third hand experience I have ever had disagrees with this. I would expect the military to hold a higher standard, as well as national and state level organizations.
No question that the vast accusations against police are false so internal oversight needs to be cautious but it would seem the attitude of the Thin Blue Line has offiicers protecting other officers even when they have clearly been in the wrong. Our justice system is designed to occasionally allow the guilty to walk in deference of the innocent being punished, but when it comes to poor enforcement innocent lives are regularly ruined to protect the jobs of a few "bad eggs".
i live and work in a small town where everyone knows me thanks to my job and my community work helping stop a GTL refinery coming into our hood and i know most of the full-time police in the two departments that us and two other towns share and yet they still hassle me (mainly while on the job in uniform) and still treat me (and others) like we're below them.
my latest encounter with their incompetence came in the form of a ticket (again, while in uniform) for using a hands free device in my one ear. the dummy couldnt even get my name right even with my license in hand. last year i was detained for 25 minutes while working because i "fit the description of a mailman who hit someone" in a town ive never been to or work in.
Not saying all accusations are wrong, just saying dont judge all Cops by the actions of a relative few. There are bad priests, lawyers, dentist and barbers out there...yet we dont paint all with the same broad brush. Scroll back a few pages and find some of my previous posts...you will find me a great critic of bad and dumb Cops. There needs to be oversight, hence my comments about getting involved. But I guess it is easier and more convenient to be an internet critic then it is to get out there and actually do something.
Are there good dentists?
Yes you have been a critic of bad cops. What do you think would happen to you if you worked for a local department and were openly critical of a shitty cop you worked with?
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Thats a great question, and fortunately I have no answer to it. I know what I would want to happen, and I know what happened when I was openly critical of military guys that I worked with, but fortunately during my time as a civilian Cop I never had the occasion to have to do so. We had some super nerdy types, but I never saw any undue weirdness. There are guys I went to the police academy with who have lost their jobs due to idiocy (DUI...) and have made the papers for on the job idiocy (Google Jeff Planey, Chicago PD...)
We used to get pizza from a great little place in the next town over. I would call and order and go pick up for the shift...always on the clock, always sharing the wealth as it were. They would invariably give me a discount when I rolled in, I never asked for it and was always prepped to pay full price. Until...one of the clowns I worked with called for one as we were getting off work. He asked for the price, and then had the balls to say "No, thats not right, I am a police occifer..." and insisted on a discount. I told him when he got off the phone that he was a dumbass, had ruined it for all of us and if I was the pizza maker he would get some special sauce on his pie. He didnt understand...
I lived on Canal south of Kinzie, and that was my corner bar when that went down. That was fucked up.
Jeff WAS a friend of mine...
Jeff ride bikes? I know some places in the hills.......
He is just a frat boy douchebag truth be told. It was a different time in my life...one that is just as well left in the past. You have heard how I feel about it a little...
This is gonna be a Florida cross post but this was interesting
http://www.wftv.com/news/local/police-naked-man-arrested-after-driving-with-wires-attached-to-genitals/463511897
"Arriving officers said Jenkins refused to comply their commands. Jenkins was taken to the ground and handcuffed, police said."
Charged with resisting a law enforcement officer without violence:
Looks like the officers did not respond sans violence
Probably a super-creep, but is that not for the courts to decide?
http://www.wftv.com/news/local/police-naked-man-arrested-after-driving-with-wires-attached-to-genitals/463511897
"Arriving officers said Jenkins refused to comply their commands. Jenkins was taken to the ground and handcuffed, police said."
Charged with resisting a law enforcement officer without violence:
Looks like the officers did not respond sans violence
Probably a super-creep, but is that not for the courts to decide?
It would be awesome if cops would be able to deliver some quick "justice" in certain specific cases imo.
Unfortunately this doesnt work in todays soceity amd I think cops should not be allowed to use excesive force on any suspect no matter how big of a creep and leave it to the judge.
The fact that said judge and our justice system are likely to fuck shit up these days, makes this even worse...
Unfortunately this doesnt work in todays soceity amd I think cops should not be allowed to use excesive force on any suspect no matter how big of a creep and leave it to the judge.
The fact that said judge and our justice system are likely to fuck shit up these days, makes this even worse...
I feel like there may be more to that than is being let on.
No, it wouldnt.
Disclaimer:
I wouldnt mind on a personal level if a cop beat a child molester in the face once or twice before escorting him to the squad car.
However I do realise on a more civilised level, that this is not in the best interest of a humane soceity.
So yeah. Cops shouldnt use excessive force in any case.
It is not for the Cop to decide and administer punishment. Only to apprehend suspects, collect facts/evidence, preserve the scene and assure the safety of all involved. Unfortunately, many either are not taught this or forget/ignore it.
I used to teach the kids who worked for me that the most important weapon they carried was the pen, and the most important skill they could develop was being able to communicate over many varied mediums. Much more effective than being able to shoot/punch/kick/spray/bite whatever...
I used to teach the kids who worked for me that the most important weapon they carried was the pen, and the most important skill they could develop was being able to communicate over many varied mediums. Much more effective than being able to shoot/punch/kick/spray/bite whatever...
What could go wrong?
Police expect Trump to lift limits on surplus military gear
Thats some serious bullshit...but lets remember that Cops dont conceive of, propose or authorize policies such as these. It takes crooked civic officials to make that happen. And those crooked officials are simply a reflection of the citizenry that put them in place.
Selective enforcement does not apply in situations like this, its not a stop or a speed limit, it is a (il)legal process, and it is a good bet that Cops are not the ones doing the confiscations. They certainly may support them, preserving the peace during the event, but actually performing the pick up is not really within the skill set...some bureaucrat calls a tow company, issues a lien against the property, and then sends a collection company to pick up said property, legal confiscation or not.
Again, Police DO NOT SET POLICY, they only enforce policies set by elected officials. Policies that are passed because people are too lazy to get involved in government. The people of Albuquerque brought this upon themselves because of their sloth and disinterest in their own government. Not saying, not even close to saying this is right, but it is the end result of their laziness. They are the only ones who can change it now
Those of you who oppose Police in everything they do, I ask you this- what would you have them do? Would you rather they simply did not exist? Would you be happy with a state of anarchy? Would you be able to protect yourself in an anarchic state? Would you be willing to accept society leveling itself and do you trust yourself and your neighbors to do the right thing? The reason that Police forces exist is simply because mankind cannot be trusted to do the right thing. At our worst we are greedy, selfish, stupid and violent. The Thin Blue Line exists because of that. Simply to protect us from ourselves. Would you rather that they simply sit behind road signs eating doughnuts and drinking coffee, allowing society to police itself, coming when called like well trained dogs, then retreating back behind the sign when you are done with them?
I have seen and experienced more self sacrifice and bravery than most of you can ever know, and I once again will present two salient points.
1. There are more good Cops than there are bad. The bad unfortunately get the publicity.
2. The policies that we disagree with and the shitty and illegal behavior we see from Cops are simply a reflection of societal norms that have gotten way out of hand. Thugs like Arpaio and Planey become that way because they are allowed to, and that has taken generations of lassez faire attitudes by everyone to evolve. If you want to make change in the system, you must get involved. Apply to become a member of the Fire/Police Commission or the like body in your area. Open our mouth when you see wrongs being done by anyone, and refuse to take no for an answer. Elevate your issues to your elected officials or the press. Complaining on a web site does little to nothing...
I take issues like this very personally...whether it be bad Cops or citizens bad mouthing Cops. But it also bugs the shit out of me when people bemoan bad Cops without offering solutions or acknowledging that the real culprit is society.
Climbing down off of soap box now...
Again, Police DO NOT SET POLICY, they only enforce policies set by elected officials. Policies that are passed because people are too lazy to get involved in government. The people of Albuquerque brought this upon themselves because of their sloth and disinterest in their own government. Not saying, not even close to saying this is right, but it is the end result of their laziness. They are the only ones who can change it now
Those of you who oppose Police in everything they do, I ask you this- what would you have them do? Would you rather they simply did not exist? Would you be happy with a state of anarchy? Would you be able to protect yourself in an anarchic state? Would you be willing to accept society leveling itself and do you trust yourself and your neighbors to do the right thing? The reason that Police forces exist is simply because mankind cannot be trusted to do the right thing. At our worst we are greedy, selfish, stupid and violent. The Thin Blue Line exists because of that. Simply to protect us from ourselves. Would you rather that they simply sit behind road signs eating doughnuts and drinking coffee, allowing society to police itself, coming when called like well trained dogs, then retreating back behind the sign when you are done with them?
I have seen and experienced more self sacrifice and bravery than most of you can ever know, and I once again will present two salient points.
1. There are more good Cops than there are bad. The bad unfortunately get the publicity.
2. The policies that we disagree with and the shitty and illegal behavior we see from Cops are simply a reflection of societal norms that have gotten way out of hand. Thugs like Arpaio and Planey become that way because they are allowed to, and that has taken generations of lassez faire attitudes by everyone to evolve. If you want to make change in the system, you must get involved. Apply to become a member of the Fire/Police Commission or the like body in your area. Open our mouth when you see wrongs being done by anyone, and refuse to take no for an answer. Elevate your issues to your elected officials or the press. Complaining on a web site does little to nothing...
I take issues like this very personally...whether it be bad Cops or citizens bad mouthing Cops. But it also bugs the shit out of me when people bemoan bad Cops without offering solutions or acknowledging that the real culprit is society.
Climbing down off of soap box now...
Respectfully, John, based on me refreshing my memory by reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States and a few other things,
- Police do execute civil forfeitures. The article cites many specific instances.
- Even though police officers don't set policy, they ought to be able to recognize policies and procedures that are morally wrong, and I hold that they and organizations like police unions ought to speak out forcefully against such abuses. I would also suspect that so speaking out might damage one's career.
- Any policy or law that sets up a dynamic in which increased arrests, citations, or seizures increases police department funding will lead to abuse, period. As you argue, police don't set this up, but, as with any human endeavor, internal measurement systems will be set up so they'll execute it with enthusiasm.
I will now step off my soapbox and offer you a beer.
I'm digging it...the moral conundrums facing Cops is a big part of what drove me away from the career field. Please understand that the heart of my position is that Cops dont set the policies they enforce.
At my last base we had protesters at the gates on an almost monthly basis. They were a pain in the ass, as our days were long and silly when they came round, and they were habitually infuriatingly polite. As I was getting closer to retirement the kids I worked with used to tease me about joining the protesters after retirement, as many of them knew of my Liberal tendencies and leanings. I am tempted to do so someday...
The problem with pushing back against the policies is that one becomes a pariah, either to management or to their comrades. Too many kids get into the field before fully considering the issues of having to enforce policy that they oppose or simply dont care about. Your job is to enforce these things, and in order to be a success you have to do it. If a shoe salesman doesnt like a shoe his store sells, he can advise a customer against the purchase and not expect retribution if he sells another shoe. A Cop doesnt have that latitude, and is one of the few career fields in which an individual is expected to be a moral being...but this also begs the question, what is a moral being and who sets the morality of said being? The very fact that one can legitimately expect to have to harm or worse, take the life of another sentinent being may render ones personal morals moot.
(This is the kind of crap I used to think about on long night shifts...)
I will take that beer now.
At my last base we had protesters at the gates on an almost monthly basis. They were a pain in the ass, as our days were long and silly when they came round, and they were habitually infuriatingly polite. As I was getting closer to retirement the kids I worked with used to tease me about joining the protesters after retirement, as many of them knew of my Liberal tendencies and leanings. I am tempted to do so someday...
The problem with pushing back against the policies is that one becomes a pariah, either to management or to their comrades. Too many kids get into the field before fully considering the issues of having to enforce policy that they oppose or simply dont care about. Your job is to enforce these things, and in order to be a success you have to do it. If a shoe salesman doesnt like a shoe his store sells, he can advise a customer against the purchase and not expect retribution if he sells another shoe. A Cop doesnt have that latitude, and is one of the few career fields in which an individual is expected to be a moral being...but this also begs the question, what is a moral being and who sets the morality of said being? The very fact that one can legitimately expect to have to harm or worse, take the life of another sentinent being may render ones personal morals moot.
(This is the kind of crap I used to think about on long night shifts...)
I will take that beer now.
One of the most interesting and important things about moral decisions is that we each have to make them based on what we know and biased by our maturity level at a given point in time. Earlier or later in time, the decision might be different; at the point in time of now, we must make our decision and own our responsibility for it.
The pariah issue exists in any human social context. My approach to it in military and corporate contexts was to form undergrounds, resistances. Some were futile, some were effective. As I got older, the effectivity of these efforts seemed to increase. I still apply the approach to some land access issues today.
The pariah issue exists in any human social context. My approach to it in military and corporate contexts was to form undergrounds, resistances. Some were futile, some were effective. As I got older, the effectivity of these efforts seemed to increase. I still apply the approach to some land access issues today.
I think in the end its all about picking your battles. Also about accepting the fact that we all continue to evolve...my 20 year old self would have thought my 40+ year old self a Liberal hippy kook. I kinda dig that...
There are systemic issues that must be addressed, that's what causes these issues. Cops and their management that decide "no crime can go unpunished", in the sense that sometimes they know a crime/violation happened or have a pretty good idea, but they don't have the evidence or observation to support it. While it's not the job of the cops to decide if someone should be charged, they have to act on a reasonable suspicion and events observed which often sets that path in stone. If those are missing, then whatever the issue is, must be dropped. If they act on the reasonable suspicion and nothing turns up, the issue must be dropped. Apart from the "finger on the trigger ready to shoot" issues we have where people are acting on bias and poor training, we have law enforcement officers that can not drop an issue that has no further legal recourse. This is largely the issue. For the good of our entire criminal justice system, they MUST drop whatever the issue is or not pursue a course of action that is not legally justifiable. Why would they seize property? Because they have a pretty damn good idea that it's being used for illicit purposes or to act as leverage against someone that they think is doing something wrong. This gets shady as hell fast and unconstitutional if there's no evidence and associated charge. There are obviously not enough checks and balances built into the system to prevent this from happening. I'm not just talking about seizing assets though, I'm talking about all sorts of issues, arresting without probable cause, detaining without any legal reason, etc. The LEOs that do this think they are heros for rooting out all the bad stuff, but they are in fact compromising the entire system. These are the kind of people that need to be gotten rid of, the ones that want to "do good at all costs", because they don't realize the implication of their actions and the effect it has on compromising the entire system. I deal with these types of issues on a day to day basis and does it suck when you know someone is "getting away with" something? Sure. But you are doing your F-ing job by operating within the legal scope of it and you are not paid to put away bad guys, you are paid to do your F-ing job, which is uphold the law. This is a lot different than pulling over people that you know are bad guys. I think a huge part of the systemic issue is the people that can not remove themselves from the idea that they are going to put bad guys away at all costs.
The inverse of what we have been discussing is looking the other way.
The number of first degree murders that have happened up here in the four decades or so since I have been here and either never investigated or a scapegoat blamed because important.local.family is fairly high.
We really aren't rational beings...
The number of first degree murders that have happened up here in the four decades or so since I have been here and either never investigated or a scapegoat blamed because important.local.family is fairly high.
We really aren't rational beings...
Part of the problem is that there is no national standard for hiring and training of LEOs. In some jurisdictions the Chief/Sheriff/Constable/Mayor/Head Cheese can toss a badge at you, wave his hand and presto, you are a Cop. Others require a college degree. In some states you put yourself through an academy, in others the hiring organization sponsors you through. Its a crap shoot as far as hiring goes.
When I was testing for jobs long ago, I was told by one department recruiter that my experience and certifications were to my detriment as a candidate for their organization. In his words, "We like to give you all your bad habits..."
It is in the best interests of the hiring agency and community to ensure that their officers are trained to the highest standards possible, to include moral and ethical standards. I think I have alluded to to this before, but teh AF made me a Cop, it was not my choice. I hate bullies, and the ability to bully bullies kept me interested for a while...but I am done with that now.
When I was testing for jobs long ago, I was told by one department recruiter that my experience and certifications were to my detriment as a candidate for their organization. In his words, "We like to give you all your bad habits..."
It is in the best interests of the hiring agency and community to ensure that their officers are trained to the highest standards possible, to include moral and ethical standards. I think I have alluded to to this before, but teh AF made me a Cop, it was not my choice. I hate bullies, and the ability to bully bullies kept me interested for a while...but I am done with that now.
way way way back in the 70's when the family was in the LTD we were driving back from houston to baton rouge and my dad gets pulled over on the highway by parrish cops for speeding.....at 11:00 at night....they're in softball attire...wearing baseball caps....dad is told to get in the car with them.....mom is to follow.....to the station...get to the station and my dad is told it's a hundred dollar fine....cash. my dad asks for a copy of the ticket....he is told there isn't one...it's a hundred dollars and it is suggested he pays.....he pays...we go on our way...dad calls insurance agent and asks him what he can do.....he's told nothing and the only reason he got out of there with his teeth and the rest of his money was because the wife and kids were with him.
evidently beer money was needed.
evidently beer money was needed.
Sounds about right for the time and location.
When I was learning to drive, our DE teachers told us to paperclip a $10 or $20 to our driving license. If you get puled over, hand it to the Copper. If he questions it, say "Oh I forgot, thats my emergency $$. I keep it there..just a little nervous, being stopped and all..." If he takes it and lets you slide, so much the better. I wondered what happened if he took it and still busted you...
When I was learning to drive, our DE teachers told us to paperclip a $10 or $20 to our driving license. If you get puled over, hand it to the Copper. If he questions it, say "Oh I forgot, thats my emergency $$. I keep it there..just a little nervous, being stopped and all..." If he takes it and lets you slide, so much the better. I wondered what happened if he took it and still busted you...
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About ten years ago back in VA the local police department received a grant to pay overtime execute a long list of open warrants. In one week they arrested three people that had guns on them that were linked to three unsolved murders which were longer being investigated. At the same time the same department was doing a Click-it-or-ticket campaign. My mind was bottled that executing warrants required a special project but making sure people wore seatbelts was considered to be part of the core scope of work, not to mention failure to investigate what seemed to be easily solved murders. I bet you can guess the race of the victims. That town left no stone un-turned if a rich white girl was killed.
hopefully the SCOTUS will hear their appeal on this. the judge's ruling only stands for that district court's jurisdiction right?
60 days in jail instead of 7 years for felony assault on a child...
http://dailyjournalonline.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/former-officer-sentenced-for-endangering-child/article_1535731d-56e7-5a55-9ce4-f512406980df.html