[quickneonrt]

guess i should have titled this different.

thanks to Specialized ludicrous pricing this year the demo 8-9 are beyond what i am willing to spend. I am leaning towards an Orange 223 or a ventana el cuervo. Does anyone know who has the best price on the 223 and what size is the rear hub? Also what are the pros/cons of each frame?

 

[CBJ]

Please not another post like this. It useless to comment as I all depends on what you want to do with the frame. So dig deep think about what you want, what type of riding you would like, etc. I ride a 222 and love the bike but who knows if you would like it.

 

[Jm_]

223=high single pivot, chain extention/pedal feedback, works best with a floating brake, needs a progressive shock due to non-linkage shock rates.

el cuervo=low pivot linkage actuated single pivot, will not have pedal-feedback, progressive linkage, works best with a floating brake, does not rely on a progressive shock due to linkages. Triangulated rear swingarm.

 

[Kornphlake]

I'd get a Cuervo personally, then again I don't drive a mini either.

 

[Transcend]

Very VERY different bikes. Why do people like to compare apples to oranges?

 

[Zark]

Wah, the demo's too expensive, wah

The best stuff costs, Taiwanese or not.

I vote neither, get a paper route, eat ramen and buy your demo. neaky:

 

[Transcend]

Wah, the demo's too expensive, wah

The best stuff costs, Taiwanese or not.

I vote neither, get a paper route, eat ramen and buy your demo. neaky:

oh cmon now. Specialized priced that thing out of availability for most people, for now obvious reason besides "exclusiveness"

 

[narlus]

what's the price of the specialized? because the 223 has to be pricy w/ the pound sterling kicking the crap out of american greenbacks.

 

[Transcend]

The 223 frame still runs about 2600 cnd retail i believe. On par with an M1.

The specialized is about 3000+ or something insane,

 

[Toshi]

what's the price of the specialized? because the 223 has to be pricy w/ the pound sterling kicking the crap out of american greenbacks.

this thread says $2800 for a demo 8, $3300 for a demo 9. oh yeah, that's for the frame only...

 

[Guess?Who]

Do all your reserch now for your new frame but don't get it until Dec-Feb when they are clearing out 04 models for the new arrivals. You already waited this long for a new frame so you might as well wait till next season. If you save up enough money for a Demo 9 you are better off getting a Brooklyn Link. I've been seeing alot of the shorter riders rocking them this year at Platty so you don't have to worry about the size. I like the Ventana better then the Orange but I would rather buy a second hand Nicolai to save cream. Speaking of which, I'm still looking for a Helius FR in a size medium. Good Luck!

 

[Transcend]

dec feb?? Most new frames will be shipping to dealers mid october at the latest. The deals to be had, will be had now.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

Yeah, we've got '05 Cuervos already. If you're going to find a deal on '04 223s or a Demo 9, you're going to find it right now.

 

[Transcend]

hey james, will you guys have bikes at IB? Scott wanted me to fly out and test ride an el cuervo over the winter, but the plans fell through.

 

[Guess?Who]

dec feb?? Most new frames will be shipping to dealers mid october at the latest. The deals to be had, will be had now.

Correct, depending on the bike shop. I know alot of bike shops that don't buy stock until spring.

 

[quickneonrt]

main problem is i need a small frame, damn short legs and I don't wanna have to sell a kidney to get it otherwise i would look at the brooklyn. I like the way the tt slopes down on the 223, it dosen't weigh a ton but wasn't sure how they hold up or how customer service is. The el cuervo looks like a good size on paper, price is right but have not seen one in person. I was looking for some help.

 

[Transcend]

main problem is i need a small frame, damn short legs and I don't wanna have to sell a kidney to get it otherwise i would look at the brooklyn. I like the way the tt slopes down on the 223, it dosen't weigh a ton but wasn't sure how they hold up or how customer service is. The el cuervo looks like a good size on paper, price is right but have not seen one in person. I was looking for some help.

i wont compare it to an el cuervo, as I haven't ridden one yet.

I will say that the service at orange is exceptional. One of my guys broke the floating mount on his bike, less then a week later, he had a new frame direct from england, with custom paint...Pretty damn good service in my opinion.

Besides that, we (the entire transcend team) have not had any problems whatsoever in 3 years of racing for orange. The bike is light, maneoverable, INCREDIBLY stiff due to the axle being piece of the frame and pretty simple in design.

I love the bike personally, as it is a neraly maintenance free bike. 2 main bearings that just take a squirt of lube to clean em out, and off you go.

 

[quickneonrt]

Thanks, Transcend that's the kind of info i was looking for. Sorry if i titled this thread wrong, didn't mean to get people annnoyed.

 

[Tully]

The Ventana's a bit heavier, but it doesn't have pedal feedback like the Orange. Since they're about the same price, which is more important to you: weight or responsiveness while pedaling?

 

[Transcend]

See, i like the way the 223 tightens up just a bit under pedaling. It helps to make the 223 the extremely efficient pedaler that it is,

 

[CBJ]

I can only agree and its makes it a super fast bikes if you ride places where you need to pedal some times like I do at Mt. Creek aka Diablo in New Jersey. Now that I have a ti spirng, tubeless and boxxer on the 222 its super light and fast - it accelerates as quick as my HT.

 

[Guess?Who]

I can only agree and its makes it a super fast bikes if you ride places where you need to pedal some times like I do at Mt. Creek aka Diablo in New Jersey. Now that I have a ti spirng, tubeless and boxxer on the 222 its super light and fast - it accelerates as quick as my HT.

Must be a huge difference compared to that 9 lb. Shiver that you had. I bet you've been hitting Dominion much better.

 

[CBJ]

Yes, it was a very different bike to jump and much less nose heavy.

 

[SinatorJ]

I have spent an entire season on an El Quervo, and I can say that this has been my favorite Dh ride ever. The bike pedals very well, is reasonably light, Super Plush, bombproof and offers a wide variety of shock selection. I currently am on a shortened Romic shock that lowers the BB height to 14" and gives a 63.5 degree head angle. This makes for a super fast cornering bike that is stable on the steeps and drops. My favorite feature of the bike is the flat black paint that keeps the bike looking new all season. Keep in touch I ride a Med and am selling it complete in Oct for 3000.00. Pm me for a list of specs.

 

[mobius]

For simplicity get a singlepivot. But the cuervo is damn fine.

 

[Tully]

Technically, the Cuervo is a single pivot.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

hey james, will you guys have bikes at IB? Scott wanted me to fly out and test ride an el cuervo over the winter, but the plans fell through.

Yeah, the Ventana crew will probably have a large that belongs to one of the employees, as well as Scott's medium at the dirt demo. I'm not sure about the small, I think we might be bringing Faith's (Go-Ride pro DH woman) Cuervo to cover that.

 

[Transcend]

Yeah, the Ventana crew will probably have a large that belongs to one of the employees, as well as Scott's medium at the dirt demo. I'm not sure about the small, I think we might be bringing Faith's (Go-Ride pro DH woman) Cuervo to cover that.

sweet, long as I can cover airfare following my tuition bill this week I will be there.

 

[narlus]

hey, is faith still out on the east coast? i recall meeting her at a sunday river race a couple years back.

 

[Swine]

ive taken an easy run down a local trail and a guys 222, and while it was really light and quick...it wasnt quite as plush as i had hoped/expected from such a high zoot frame. the frame was also really loud, reverberating noise antime something came in contact with the frame. (not a bad thing, would be better if it didnt. comparing the 222 to my fly with a romic). personally, if i were in your situation, i would get the el cuervo (which fits my riding style suspension preferances better). and just one small + for the el cuervo, ventana's welds are absolutely immaculent.

 

[xc skier]

See, i like the way the 223 tightens up just a bit under pedaling. It helps to make the 223 the extremely efficient pedaler that it is,

IMO it feels like you are riding in swamp because of the high pedal feedback

 

[Transcend]

IMO it feels like you are riding in swamp because of the high pedal feedback

Do you know what the "pedal feedback" is on a 223? Apparently not.

It tightens the chain, which stiffens the rear suspension. If anything, it makes the pedaling BETTER, not worse.

Also - for the guy above who rode a 222, try a 223. I rode a 222 for two years and was blown away when they sent me my 223. COMPLETELY different feeling bike. Slacker, longer, 1" more travel. I agree that the 222 felt a little "lighter" then the new crop of DH bikes. It tended to bounce around a bit more and generally require more input to keep going where you wanted it.

 

[Jm_]

Do you know what the "pedal feedback" is on a 223? Apparently not.

It tightens the chain, which stiffens the rear suspension. If anything, it makes the pedaling BETTER, not worse.

on a smooth surface.

Trying to pedal a high pivot through a rock garden on the other hand can be nearly impossible at times, it'll either pedal well on a smooth surface, or it will absorb bumps, but it wont do both at once because the extending suspension interfears with your pedaling, and the pedaling interfears with the suspension, you can look at it from both ways.

I'm not knocking the bike, but this is inherent to the design. Higher pivot single pivot bikes are going to have pedal feedback in rough terrain. If you try to pedal the bike will feel very "choppy" and harsh, if you just coast it should work ok, if you pedal on a smooth surface it will work ok.

It's a race bike, it has advantages and disadvantages. Suspension performance is not one of it's advantages compared to other bikes (like the el cuervo).

 

[Transcend]

on a smooth surface.

Trying to pedal a high pivot through a rock garden on the other hand can be nearly impossible at times, it'll either pedal well on a smooth surface, or it will absorb bumps, but it wont do both at once because the extending suspension interfears with your pedaling, and the pedaling interfears with the suspension, you can look at it from both ways.

I'm not knocking the bike, but this is inherent to the design. Higher pivot single pivot bikes are going to have pedal feedback in rough terrain. If you try to pedal the bike will feel very "choppy" and harsh, if you just coast it should work ok, if you pedal on a smooth surface it will work ok.

It's a race bike, it has advantages and disadvantages. Suspension performance is not one of it's advantages compared to other bikes (like the el cuervo).

I completely agree (dear lord did i just say that??). It will indeed stiffen up and feel choppy if you try and pedal through a rock garden. My whole point was that, it won't ever feel "mushy" or like you were pedaling through a swamp, quite the opposite in fact.

In all honesty, i have yet to find a rock garden that I can both pin it through pedaling and that needs 9" of active suspension. In my experience it is amost always one or the other.

In my opinion this is a good tradeoff. Great suspension and reliability 99% of the time, and great pedaling as well.

 

[xc skier]

Do you know what the "pedal feedback" is on a 223? Apparently not.

Yes I do. I've ridden '01 222, '03 222 and '04 223. They're all very good bikes but I don't like how they pedal in rough terrain.

 

[narlus]

the 223 is even slacker than the 222? yikes!

 

[binary visions]

Yes I do. I've ridden '01 222, '03 222 and '04 223. They're all very good bikes but I don't like how they pedal in rough terrain.

He reacted to your way of describing your dissatisfaction with the pedalling. What you described was about as far as you can get from how a high single pivot pedals..

 

[Transcend]

the 223 is even slacker than the 222? yikes!

and the 2005 223 will be even slacker still! They are compensating for 200mm forks i was told for 2005, and they are also adding front derrailleur cable stops.

 

[Acadian]

and the 2005 223 will be even slacker still! They are compensating for 200mm forks i was told for 2005, and they are also adding front derrailleur cable stops.

If they are compensating for 200mm forks, doesn't this mean that the bike would be "steeper" if used with a 7" fork?

 

[thaflyinfatman]

If they are compensating for 200mm forks, doesn't this mean that the bike would be "steeper" if used with a 7" fork?

Pfft. Clearly not, because with an 8" fork you would be going so much faster that you would need to take into account your mass converting into pure energy, which would reduce the amount of weight on the bike, thus reducing the sag, in turn steepening the bike. Duh