[CBJ]

So Quickneonrt as I wrote to begin with its not one vs the other its more about what are you looking for in a DH bike. Both a great bikes quality bikes each with their own qualities.

The things you read about the 222/223 with the high pivot and pedal characteristics is typical for Ridemonkey and mostly statements from people who does ride the bike. I bought my 222 because of the high pivot and love the snappy feel and think its one of the things that makes the bike so much fun to ride. I also prefer finess riding in stead of hitting things head on and to me its seems like that is what the 222/3 is build for. Besides that I like that the shock is protected with the placement in the frame, the floating brake, you can run a full seat post, low maintenance with the super strong pivot, and its a light frame.

 

[Transcend]

If they are compensating for 200mm forks, doesn't this mean that the bike would be "steeper" if used with a 7" fork?

hat is exactly what i asked?


Beats me, i am keeping this years bike anyways. :love:

 

[zedro]

i could understand the 'riding through a swamp' comment if you were trying to pedal through a really rough section in a gear too high, and get that hung up feeling if you trying to fight the suspension.

This is definitly one of those 'try-it before you buy-it'. The 223's pedalling would be analogous to a Bullits to try out (i mean, everyone should know someone with a Bullit, right?).

The two high pivoted bikes (without modified chainlines) that i tired did have that stiff sprinty sensation, but i just hated how they felt once the suspension was really needed.

 

[go-ride.com]

223=high single pivot, chain extention/pedal feedback, works best with a floating brake, needs a progressive shock due to non-linkage shock rates.

el cuervo=low pivot linkage actuated single pivot, will not have pedal-feedback, progressive linkage, works best with a floating brake, does not rely on a progressive shock due to linkages. Triangulated rear swingarm.

I've tested both the Floater and the standard IS mount. For a place like Big Bear that is relatively flat and has lots of braking bumps the floater could be nice. On steeper terrain I think the Cuervo is faster without the floater.

 

[Tully]

On steeper terrain I think the Cuervo is faster without the floater.

How come? Does the suspension squat under braking, making it lower and more slack?

 

[xc skier]

i could understand the 'riding through a swamp' comment if you were trying to pedal through a really rough section in a gear too high, and get that hung up feeling if you trying to fight the suspension.

Exactly! It feels like you don't get anywhere because the chain pulls cranks backwards

 

[Tully]

If I understand correctly, it sounds like the Orange is an excellent bike if you can enter the technical, rough parts with so much speed that you don't really need to pedal, because that lets you take advantage of the frame's travel and stiffness, without sacrificing suspension performance.

 

[Jm_]

If I understand correctly, it sounds like the Orange is an excellent bike if you can enter the technical, rough parts with so much speed that you don't really need to pedal, because that lets you take advantage of the frame's travel and stiffness, without sacrificing suspension performance.

There's a few more advantages/disadvantages. Square edged impacts will be absorbed a little better due to a rearward axle path, but a higher main pivot also makes the bike less active. The progressive rear shock is pretty much critical due to single-pivot characteristics (singles are either regressive, digressive, or almost linear). So the progressive shock lets it act more like a single pivot where the initial travel is very soft and it ramps up, something that most Super 8 riders never got to experience, even though they had a similer suspension design.

 

[Toshi]

singles are either regressive, digressive, or almost linear

what's "digressive"? they don't shut up when they should?

 

[Acadian]

what's "digressive"? they don't shut up when they should?

you mean like....mouth diarrhea?.

 

[frorider]

what's "digressive"? they don't shut up when they should?

no, a 'digressive' shock steers the conversation to unrelated topics.

but i digress.

(seriously tho, it's just the opposite of progressive. It's Republican!)

 

[Jm_]

what's "digressive"? they don't shut up when they should?

look up the definition, it's not that complicated.

 

[Acadian]

look up the definition, it's not that complicated.

nothing in "Le Petit Larousse Illustre"?

 

[go-ride.com]

How come? Does the suspension squat under braking, making it lower and more slack?

That is part of the answer. Floating brakes work by countering the rear suspensions tendancy to squat under braking. Essentially, as you crest the ridge of a braking bump the rear wheel is forced down the back side of the bump, thus keeping the wheel in contact with the ground and providing superior rear wheel braking. The key word is "Rear" wheel braking.

Unfortunately, that force pushing the rear wheel down does so by loading the main frame and thus pushing the front wheel down at the same time. When you add the force from the rear wheel to a fork that is already compressing quite a lot from hard front braking, you get an unbalanced bike. On flatter terrain with long sweeping corners that have lots of braking bumps the extra load to the front wheel is not so bad. Unfortunately, on a steep course the extra load the front wheel can actually cause the fork to bottom out in braking bumps and makes the bike very difficult to enter turns.

Overall, with the pivot location of the Cuervo and the effectiveness of the linkage there is rarely a spot on a DH course that the bike would benefit from a floating brake.

 

[Toshi]

look up the definition, it's not that complicated.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=digressive&r=67
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=digressive&x=15&y=15

where now? it does seem to be pretty widely used but that use certainly isn't in the two definitions above.

 

[CBJ]

Interesting info James I guess this could be the reason why you can make the floating brake less active on the 222/3 with the four adjustments options on the main frame.

 

[binary visions]

(seriously tho, it's just the opposite of progressive. It's Republican!)

As amusing as your comment was , digressive isn't the opposite of progressive. Regressive is the opposite of progressive.

Someone slap me if I'm wrong, but don't digressive designs get progressive at a lesser and lesser rate, potentially becoming linear and then regressive?

 

[zedro]

Someone slap me if I'm wrong, but don't digressive designs get progressive at a lesser and lesser rate, potentially becoming linear and then regressive?

thats exactly it, and non-linkage bikes moving from a sub-90 degree shock angle to 90 degrees do exactly that, although the actual changes are so slight compared to progressive (rising rate) designs you could call them linear for arguments sake.

 

[binary visions]

thats exactly it, and non-linkage bikes moving from a sub-90 degree shock angle to 90 degrees do exactly that, although the actual changes are so slight compared to progressive (rising rate) designs you could call them linear for arguments sake.

Whee, look at me, I'm smart!

"I am so smart... S, M, R, T..."

 

[frorider]

As amusing as your comment was , digressive isn't the opposite of progressive. Regressive is the opposite of progressive.

yes i know. trust me, i know semantics ad nauseam.

i got the impression that the original poster meant to say 'regressive', not 'digressive'.

 

[go-ride.com]

Interesting info James I guess this could be the reason why you can make the floating brake less active on the 222/3 with the four adjustments options on the main frame.

Actually, Go-ride.com is Scott at Go-ride.com and James is James @ Go-ride.com.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

Also, questions answered efficiently and technically are usually Scott, questions answered in four paragraphs with an innumerable amount of similies and examples are usually mine.

 

[Mani_UT]

Ohh sh!t !!!
We got a Go-ride invasion Monkeys. Run for cover

Seriously though, the El Cuervo is ze **** and will have soon a world championship title under its belt (ok may be not but may be )

Go Van dine Yoohoooo :dancing: :dancing:

 

[Acadian]

Go Van dine Yoohoooo :dancing: :dancing:

wasn't he Canadian for a while?

 

[S.G.D]

man, all this talk of not being able to pedal in the rough. sure it's not the smoothest pedaler out there in that particular situation, but i think you guys are taking it out of context. it's not like you CANT pedal, its just rough/tougher.

i went from having only experience with 4bar suspension to riding the orange. they really are loveable. and god damn, if you like cornering you'll be right at home.

~SGD

 

[Jm_]

Whee, look at me, I'm smart!

"I am so smart... S, M, R, T..."

yep..

I always think about just doing a little graph of it in paintshop or excell, but I just get lazy

 

[zedro]

yep..

I always think about just doing a little graph of it in paintshop or excell, but I just get lazy

i've posted those in the Demo9 debates back way back when....they dont seem to phase peoples comprehension when using terms they dont understand....

 

[thaflyinfatman]

Square edged impacts will be absorbed a little better due to a rearward axle path, but a higher main pivot also makes the bike less active.

So it's less active, but absorbs impacts better? Higher pivot = MORE active (when you're not pedalling), you can feel a huge difference between a BB7 and say a Foes in terms of activeness (both with Fox RCs).

 

[zedro]

So it's less active, but absorbs impacts better? Higher pivot = MORE active (when you're not pedalling), you can feel a huge difference between a BB7 and say a Foes in terms of activeness (both with Fox RCs).

depens what you mean by 'active'. I think he means the real little jittery stuff, like the terrain static that'll only use 1/2-1" of the travel. A rearward path probably isnt well suited to that (nor a longer heavier swingarm), its not as efficient in transmitting that type of input. This is the issue i'm having, but in my case i believe its mostly the stupid big inertial properties of my swingarm thats causing it. But it also seems like more of a confort issue.

But its damn good at 'swallowing' larger terrain.

 

[SinatorJ]

Comon Manny, sing it with me: Thong, th thong thong thong....

 

[quickneonrt]

Thanks everyone for the help.
since my weak spot is rockgardens and I ride mostly Mtn creek which has quite a few, sounds like I would be better off with the El Cuervo. My current frame is a 8" bighit and its the only dh bike I have experience on.

 

[thaflyinfatman]

depens what you mean by 'active'. I think he means the real little jittery stuff, like the terrain static that'll only use 1/2-1" of the travel. A rearward path probably isnt well suited to that (nor a longer heavier swingarm), its not as efficient in transmitting that type of input. This is the issue i'm having, but in my case i believe its mostly the stupid big inertial properties of my swingarm thats causing it. But it also seems like more of a confort issue.

But its damn good at 'swallowing' larger terrain.

I disagree with axle-path part of that. The BB7 is the only non-linkage singlepivot I've ridden that *really* felt active - Foes, Oranges etc just aren't quite the same IMO. The shock makes a huge difference for that kind of stuff though, I reckon that's where Fox/non-spv shocks are better. I get what you mean about the inertia though, I can imagine that would be a pretty big issue on some bikes.

 

[zedro]

I disagree with axle-path part of that. The BB7 is the only non-linkage singlepivot I've ridden that *really* felt active ...

hmm, might be a problem with the word active...i mean like sensitive to very low amplitude/high frequency stuff, something that might be better served in a near vertical path about the sag point.

But then again, there are alot of other factors (probably more important) in that, like the inertial thing, friction, the shock and the rate at that point...but we're in anecdotal evidence territory here arent we (uhh, all th time even....)

 

[thaflyinfatman]

hmm, might be a problem with the word active...i mean like sensitive to very low amplitude/high frequency stuff, something that might be better served in a near vertical path about the sag point.

But then again, there are alot of other factors (probably more important) in that, like the inertial thing, friction, the shock and the rate at that point...but we're in anecdotal evidence territory here arent we (uhh, all th time even....)

Agreed.