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Election Determines Fate of Nation

ncrider

Turbo Monkey
Aug 15, 2004
1,564
0
Los Angeles
Subject: ELECTION DETERMINES FATE OF NATION


This was written in the Daily Record (Ellensburg's paper) on Wed. Oct.
6, 2004.* It was written by Mathew (only one t) Manweller who is a
Central Washington University political science professor.

The title of the article was "Election determines fate of nation."

"In that this will be my last column before the presidential election
there will be no sarcasm, no attempts at witty repartee.* The topic is
too serious, and the stakes are too high.
*** This November we will vote in the only election during our lifetime
that will truly matter.* Because America is at a once-in-a-generation
crossroads, more than an election hangs in the balance.
*** Down one path lies retreat, abdication and a reign of ambivalence.
Down the other lies a nation that is aware of its past and accepts the
daunting obligation its future demands.* If we choose poorly, the
consequences will echo through the next 50 years of history.
*** If we, in a spasm of frustration, turn out the current occupant of
the White House, the message to the world and ourselves will be
twofold.* First, we will reject the notion that America can do big
things.* Once a nation that tamed a frontier, stood down the Nazis and
stood upon the moon, we will announce to the world that bringing
democracy to the Middle East is too big of a task for us.* But more
significantly, we will signal to future presidents that as voters, we
are unwilling to tackle difficult challenges, preferring caution to
boldness, embracing the mediocrity that has characterized other
civilizations.
*** The defeat of President Bush will send a chilling message to future
presidents who may need to make difficult, yet unpopular decisions.
America has always been a nation that rises to the demands of history
regardless of the costs or appeal.* If we turn away from that legacy, we
turn away from who we are.
*** Second, we inform every terrorist organization on the globe that the
lesson of Somalia was well learned.* In Somalia we showed terrorists
that you don't need to defeat America on the battlefield when you can
defeat them in the newsroom.* They learned that a wounded America can
become a defeated America.* Twenty-four-hour news stations and daily
tracing polls will do the heavy lifting, turning a cut into a fatal
blow.* Except that Iraq is Somalia times 10.* The election of John Kerry
will serve notice to every terrorist in every cave that the soft
underbelly of American power is the timidity of American voters.
Terrorists will know that a steady stream of grizzly photos for CNN is
all you need to break the will of the American people. Our own
self-doubt will take it from there.* Bin Laden will recognize that he
can topple any American administration without setting foot on the
homeland.
*** It is said that America's W.W.II generation is its 'greatest
generation.'
But my greatest fear is that it will become known as America's 'last
generation.'** Born in the bleakness of the Great Depression and
hardened in the fire of WW II, they may be the last American generation
that understands the meaning of duty, honor and sacrifice. It is
difficult to admit, but I know these terms are spoken with only hollow
detachment by many (but not all) in my generation.* Too many citizens
today mistake 'living in America' as 'being an American.'* But America
has always been more of an idea than a place.* When you sign on, you do
more than buy real estate.* You accept a set of values and
responsibilities.
*** This November, my generation, which has been absent too long, must
grasp the obligation that comes with being an American, or fade into the
oblivion they may deserve.* I believe that 100 years from now historians
will look back at the election of 2004 and see it as the decisive
election of our century.* Depending on the outcome, they will describe
it as the moment America joined the ranks of ordinary nations; or they
will describe it as the moment the prodigal sons and daughters of the
greatest generation accepted their burden as caretakers of the City on
the Hill."
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Changleen said:
Congratulations. Republiganda worthy of N8. :stosh:
You have no right to be busting on N8 for posting republiganda when all you post is garbage from the opposite side. :nope:
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
Changleen said:
Congratulations. Republiganda worthy of N8. :stosh:
Though this may be true, you still have the opportunity to respond to it and not attack the poster.


Support for Bush or not, this guy is a joke. His arguments are ridiculous. Not electing Bush is not some stab at America; should we elect our leaders because of how we want to look towards the outside world? Please. Also, he greatly overstates the election's importance in his comparisons to the past and fauture. Bring democracy to the Middle East? What? Last time I checked that was not what this war was about. Nor should we ever fight a war to do that.
 

lonewolfe

Monkey
Nov 14, 2002
408
0
Bay Area
Yeah, right! Is that what congress voted for when they approved the invasion of Irag? HELL NO! What a crock of s...! This administration has come up with one excuse after another to justify this war to detract from the real reason everyone was told we were going there in the first place. The real reason was the great threat of Sadaam Hussein and his vast arsenol of WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Remember that little title? We only had it crammed down our throats on tv, radio, and newspapers for months. That was all baseless bulls... too! It is for the OIL, OIL, OIL, OIL! Iraq has the second largest oil reserve in the world. If there was no oil then there would be no war, PERIOD! Oh, let's not forget the Israelis, they were really pushing for this invasion too. This administration has pulled the wool over the eyes of the American people like no other administration ever has. The really sad thing is that so many people bought it and continue to buy it to this day. It really makes me sick to think that such a large portion of the this great nations population can be led around like sheep and believe whatever they are told when it comes to war. If Bush does get elected it is going to be really interesting to see who in his cabinet is going to stick around for another four years. That's right, they are for the most part going to jump ship before it sinks. Hopefully we won't have to find out and they will all be gone. I am willing to bet we won't know by November 3rd though.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,904
2,867
Pōneke
BurlySurly said:
You have no right to be busting on N8 for posting republiganda when all you post is garbage from the opposite side. :nope:
Is that so? Please review my posting history. I know we argue a lot, but I do not to post pure BS 'opinion'.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Changleen said:
Is that so? Please review my posting history. I know we argue a lot, but I do not to post pure BS 'opinion'.
How come there is not a shock and disbelief emoticon?

What the heck where those Bin Laden sights? And that raptor article you just posted had more than a tad bit of opinion added....to name two off the top of my head ;)
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Bah!

Im headed to MTB Collegiate Nationals in PA. Hold the fort down for me Chang. Be back sunday night.
 

bmxr

Monkey
Jan 29, 2004
195
0
Marietta, GA
lonewolfe said:
Yeah, right! Is that what congress voted for when they approved the invasion of Irag? HELL NO! What a crock of s...! This administration has come up with one excuse after another to justify this war to detract from the real reason everyone was told we were going there in the first place. The real reason was the great threat of Sadaam Hussein and his vast arsenol of WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Remember that little title? We only had it crammed down our throats on tv, radio, and newspapers for months. That was all baseless bulls... too! It is for the OIL, OIL, OIL, OIL! Iraq has the second largest oil reserve in the world. If there was no oil then there would be no war, PERIOD! Oh, let's not forget the Israelis, they were really pushing for this invasion too. This administration has pulled the wool over the eyes of the American people like no other administration ever has. The really sad thing is that so many people bought it and continue to buy it to this day. It really makes me sick to think that such a large portion of the this great nations population can be led around like sheep and believe whatever they are told when it comes to war. If Bush does get elected it is going to be really interesting to see who in his cabinet is going to stick around for another four years. That's right, they are for the most part going to jump ship before it sinks. Hopefully we won't have to find out and they will all be gone. I am willing to bet we won't know by November 3rd though.
Waah, oil. Waah, all the intelligence (that the entire world agreed on) was lies. Waah, anyone who supports Bush is a sheep. :o:
 

ncrider

Turbo Monkey
Aug 15, 2004
1,564
0
Los Angeles
JRogers said:
Though this may be true, you still have the opportunity to respond to it and not attack the poster.


Bring democracy to the Middle East? What? Last time I checked that was not what this war was about. Nor should we ever fight a war to do that.
You're right, this war was not started just to bring Democracy to the middle east. It was started over many reasons and that being one. A truly overwhelming task by any standards. However, bring freedom and rights to the people of Iraq, who have been oppressed and murdered by there wonderfull genocidal dictator Sadam, should be something that even you liberals could support.
Look I'm not saying that everything about this war has been done right, but choosing a leader that doesn't believe in the war and consequencially won't finish the war, will be even more devastating. More Americans will die, more Iraqis will die and America's credible commitment will be lost forever. We need to make good our promise to rebuild Iraq.
Allright libs bring it on. :D
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
ncrider said:
You're right, this war was not started just to bring Democracy to the middle east. It was started over many reasons and that being one. A truly overwhelming task by any standards. However, bring freedom and rights to the people of Iraq, who have been oppressed and murdered by there wonderfull genocidal dictator Sadam, should be something that even you liberals could support.
Look I'm not saying that everything about this war has been done right, but choosing a leader that doesn't believe in the war and consequencially won't finish the war, will be even more devastating. More Americans will die, more Iraqis will die and America's credible commitment will be lost forever. We need to make good our promise to rebuild Iraq.
Allright libs bring it on. :D
More Americans will die anyway, certainly more Iraqis will die regardless, maybe or maybe not Iraq will be rebuilt but the "bright shining lie" that this war was fought for the people of Iraq is someting that even you frothers couldn't support.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
Um, whether Bush is elected or not, they already know all that crap.

They know the election is coming down to a 1% or so margin again. They don't think that the election of one candidate over another means the American people are unified in thought, action, and will.

Plus, lots of Islamists don't care who gets elected. (Not all of them, mind you...some sure do)The things America does which incite them to action continue regardless of who's in power. Clinton, Bush...same thing to them. Kerry, Bush...more of the same, really. And there's not going to be that much of a difference in Iraq policy regardless. Kerry can't do much differently than Bush is currently doing. He's inheriting a rack of spinning plates, and they're all wobbly. All he can do is spin them opportunistically. No major differences in the actions that can be taken; rhetoric is the only difference.

MD
 

ncrider

Turbo Monkey
Aug 15, 2004
1,564
0
Los Angeles
valve bouncer said:
but the "bright shining lie" that this war was fought for the people of Iraq is someting that even you frothers couldn't support.
Wouldn't try to support that. There are many other reasons this war started. Once you destroy a nation and remove it's leader, it's a good idea to rebuild and install (atempt at this point) a system of government that will give more value to a citizens life.
 

PonySoldier

Monkey
May 5, 2004
823
0
Woodland Park Colorado
I'm not sure that whatever reason you choose, be it WMD's, Freedom, Rights and Democracy or control of the Iraqi Oil is worth the life of a single U.S. Soldier much less 1000+ dead and 8000+ maimed.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
MikeD said:
Um, whether Bush is elected or not, they already know all that crap.

They know the election is coming down to a 1% or so margin again. They don't think that the election of one candidate over another means the American people are unified in thought, action, and will.

Plus, lots of Islamists don't care who gets elected. (Not all of them, mind you...some sure do)The things America does which incite them to action continue regardless of who's in power. Clinton, Bush...same thing to them. Kerry, Bush...more of the same, really. And there's not going to be that much of a difference in Iraq policy regardless. Kerry can't do much differently than Bush is currently doing. He's inheriting a rack of spinning plates, and they're all wobbly. All he can do is spin them opportunistically. No major differences in the actions that can be taken; rhetoric is the only difference.

MD
If he's elected Kerry will bring a lot of good will to the plate. In the short term that is probably good but, yeah, in the long term I think you're right. Not much really will change. Like after 9/11 when Bush had a window of opputunity so will Kerry if he wins. I hope he doesn't f*ck like Shrub did but I doubt it.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
ncrider said:
Look I'm not saying that everything about this war has been done right, but choosing a leader that doesn't believe in the war and consequencially won't finish the war, will be even more devastating. More Americans will die, more Iraqis will die and America's credible commitment will be lost forever. We need to make good our promise to rebuild Iraq.
Allright libs bring it on. :D
By this line of reasoning, you'd stay with a surgeon who botched a procedure on you because he believes in what he's doing, instead of changing to someone who wasn't a hack, right?

Seriously, that's one of the worst arguments I've heard for giving Bush a second term.
 

ncrider

Turbo Monkey
Aug 15, 2004
1,564
0
Los Angeles
MikeD said:
Um, whether Bush is elected or not, they already know all that crap.

They know the election is coming down to a 1% or so margin again. They don't think that the election of one candidate over another means the American people are unified in thought, action, and will.

Plus, lots of Islamists don't care who gets elected. (Not all of them, mind you...some sure do)The things America does which incite them to action continue regardless of who's in power. Clinton, Bush...same thing to them. Kerry, Bush...more of the same, really. And there's not going to be that much of a difference in Iraq policy regardless. Kerry can't do much differently than Bush is currently doing. He's inheriting a rack of spinning plates, and they're all wobbly. All he can do is spin them opportunistically. No major differences in the actions that can be taken; rhetoric is the only difference.

MD
good points. Good way to stay neutral. This election will be decided by the median voter. 0.1-1%. I would argue that the countries who have supported us or will eventually benefit from this, will really care who gets elected. I see this election as voting for certainty or uncertainty. We'll all pick a side, but I'll pick certainty any day of the week.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
valve bouncer said:
If he's elected Kerry will bring a lot of good will to the plate. In the short term that is probably good but, yeah, in the long term I think you're right. Not much really will change. Like after 9/11 when Bush had a window of opputunity so will Kerry if he wins. I hope he doesn't f*ck like Shrub did but I doubt it.
My point is that the attitude of, "If Kerry wins, the terrorists will have won!" is complete BS. They don't really care who wins; they care about what the US will do, and neither candidate will do anything that substantially 1) destroys their ability to attack us (regardless of what the Bush apologists think) or 2) addresses their reasons for attacking us. We'll continue muddling along and creating terrorists while trying to catch and kill them, while ignoring military action that will actually affect terrorism. (Unlike Iraq, which has only sent the message that the US can be easily entrapped in a losing political situation-the culmination of Vietnam to Somalia-and is currently an easy target in the Middle East's backyard...and that Americans are so bogged down there that it's party time for the rest of our antagonists.) Frankly, 'terrorists' probably hope Bush wins...some have said so, if they haven't openly expressed their ambivalence on the subject.

One candidate winning over the other doesn't represent a victory to Al-Queada or anyone else who attacks us. They know the American people are already divided nearly 50/50, and the results of the election don't mean a major shift in the feeling of the populace in general.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
ncrider said:
good points. Good way to stay neutral. This election will be decided by the median voter. 0.1-1%. I would argue that the countries who have supported us or will eventually benefit from this, will really care who gets elected. I see this election as voting for certainty or uncertainty. We'll all pick a side, but I'll pick certainty any day of the week.
There's an old military maxim..."don't reinforce failure." If something's failing, don't waste your efforts shoring it up. Commit your reserves where they will have an effect on winning something, not prolonging the inevitable or maintaining the status quo.

Certainly, steady leadership when things seem the worst is essential. But there's smarts and there's stupidity, as well.

MD
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Actually, Kerry probably (I hope) wouldn't use the word crusade in a speech.

Stuff like that alone might get Osama pulling for a Bush win. After all, with Bush around, you don't need to shoot video anymore, you just need to do some editing...
 

ncrider

Turbo Monkey
Aug 15, 2004
1,564
0
Los Angeles
MikeD said:
Certainly, steady leadership when things seem the worst is essential. But there's smarts and there's stupidity, as well.

MD
You should know this better than anyone, steady strong leadership is key to victory. When things seem bad a leader needs to muster that extra strength and motivation or failure will surely follow. The last thing you want to here when your faceing hard times is "wrong place, wrong war". Thats a slap in the face to all supportors and a sure way to be defeated. A leader needs to say, we made some mistakes, but here how they can and will be fixed and recover.
Oh to Silver ( I just saw your post) the surgeon analogy should be cleared up now.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
ncrider said:
You should know this better than anyone, steady strong leadership is key to victory. When things seem bad a leader needs to muster that extra strength and motivation or failure will surely follow. The last thing you want to here when your faceing hard times is "wrong place, wrong war". Thats a slap in the face to all supportors and a sure way to be defeated. A leader needs to say, we made some mistakes, but here how they can and will be fixed and recover.
Oh to Silver ( I just saw your post) the surgeon analogy should be cleared up now.
Bush doesn't make mistakes. Never. Can't think of one...

Seriously, that's not a statement he's going to make. He doesn't believe that he should have done anything different.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
ncrider said:
You should know this better than anyone, steady strong leadership is key to victory. When things seem bad a leader needs to muster that extra strength and motivation or failure will surely follow.
The last thing I want in a leader is an inability to deal with change. When you're in the assault, and your main effort hits unexpected resistance, you don't want someone who's too inept or pig-headed to transition one of his supporting efforts to become the decisive element. You don't push your troops into suicide; it leads to a failed mission and is pretty bad for morale. You think fast and make new plans based on the changing situation, and articulate them clearly and simply.

An inspiring leader is usually not an inflexible one.

MD
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
ncrider said:
I knew that one was coming
Yet you said it anyhow...

Edit: You also know I don't think a leader who refuses to take risk or accept sacrifice isn't going to be in the business long, either. Neither will a leader whose plans are wishy-washy under fire. It's a fine balance.

MD
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
MikeD said:
My point is that the attitude of, "If Kerry wins, the terrorists will have won!" is complete BS. They don't really care who wins; they care about what the US will do, and neither candidate will do anything that substantially 1) destroys their ability to attack us (regardless of what the Bush apologists think) or 2) addresses their reasons for attacking us. We'll continue muddling along and creating terrorists while trying to catch and kill them, while ignoring military action that will actually affect terrorism. (Unlike Iraq, which has only sent the message that the US can be easily entrapped in a losing political situation-the culmination of Vietnam to Somalia-and is currently an easy target in the Middle East's backyard...and that Americans are so bogged down there that it's party time for the rest of our antagonists.) Frankly, 'terrorists' probably hope Bush wins...some have said so, if they haven't openly expressed their ambivalence on the subject.

One candidate winning over the other doesn't represent a victory to Al-Queada or anyone else who attacks us. They know the American people are already divided nearly 50/50, and the results of the election don't mean a major shift in the feeling of the populace in general.
Agree with you there mate. One thing...you said "We'll continue muddling along.....while ignoring military action that will actually affect terrorism". Can you expand a bit there mate?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
MikeD said:
The last thing I want in a leader is an inability to deal with change. When you're in the assault, and your main effort hits unexpected resistance, you don't want someone who's too inept or pig-headed to transition one of his supporting efforts to become the decisive element. You don't push your troops into suicide; it leads to a failed mission and is pretty bad for morale. You think fast and make new plans based on the changing situation, and articulate them clearly and simply.

An inspiring leader is usually not an inflexible one.

MD

See Gen Robert E Lee on day 3 of Gettysburg... yet his troops loved him and his civilian support at home never faultered...
 

ncrider

Turbo Monkey
Aug 15, 2004
1,564
0
Los Angeles
MikeD said:
Edit: You also know I don't think a leader who refuses to take risk or accept sacrifice isn't going to be in the business long, either. Neither will a leader whose plans are wishy-washy under fire. It's a fine balance.

MD
true. Your seem so neutral.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
ncrider said:
true. Your seem so neutral.
Critical and intelligent, I hope. And disenfranchised with politics in general. People adopt a platform and defend it to the death, instead of thinking. That makes me a sad panda.

N8, Robert E. Lee was an amazing leader...and on the losing side. But war is often just fate, fortune, and the civilians at the top fvcking you over again and again.

MD

Edit: and perhaps there's not as fine a line as I thought between a leader who wilts under fire, a leader who leads the next Pickett's Charge, and a leader who makes confident, inspired changes of course to outmaneuver the enemy and overcome adversity.