[DRB]

Because the other one is locked.

The interesting bits are the St. Paul mayors race where a Democrat got voted out because of support of Bush. And the Virginia governors race. There is some discussion that Bush's appearance with Kilgore yesterday may have actually increased the democratic turnout as the margin was about twice what the polling numbers were indicating.

But Virginia has gone the opposite direction of the presidency every election since Carter. I do think that it brings light on an interesting challenger in 2008, Mark Warner. Much of Kaine's victory is being attributed to Warner's overwhelming popularity. The ability of Warner to pick up a state like Virginia in a presidential election would be key in any Democratic move to take the White House back.

And definately Arnie took one in the teeth big time. This will have challengers lining up from everywhere next year. I also think it seriously will cast doubt on his ability to do anything for the next year.

Next year's mid-term elections are going to make the next year very interesting.

 

[Westy]

Warner will be an interesting one in the '08 presidential election. From my experiences in Va I'd certainly vote for him. Always seemed like a common sense no BS dude, he rides too.

 

[Echo]

Locally here, a buddy of mine won a county legislature seat. And in Rochester's mayor race, where the current mayor was not running for re-election, the democrat trounced the republican like 80% to 10%. It was fun to watch.

 

[Echo]

I would reopen the other one now that it's here... but I don't have mod rights here

 

[Ciaran]

I would reopen the other one now that it's here... but I don't have mod rights here

Thank goodness for small blessings

On topic I thought it was great that Arnie's initiatives got shot down. I wonder if this is a sign of how he'll do when he runs for re-election.

 

[kidwoo]

Nobody can tell ohio to buy a gun cuz it's now illegal in san fran. The unforseen enemy that can only be repelled by firearms will overtake them in no time.

Interestingly, I heard bill o'reily saying if the proposition stating that military recruitment on high school campuses would be opposed as a stance of the city, but still permited, that san fran should be allowed to perish in a terrorist attack, free of national aid. He's so smart.

In reference to the wieght lifting grab asser cali has for a guberner getting all his ideas shot down, I have to put california in the same boat as all the people bringing down bush's approval ratings........WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING BACK WHEN IT MATTERED RIGHT BEFORE THE ELECTION THAT GAVE THESE PEOPLE THEIR JOBS? Stupid stupid.

 

[Echo]

Thank goodness for small blessings.

bitch please

 

[sanjuro]

On the Cali note, I would say Schwarzenegger is going the one term route. Whether you agree with it or not, the abortion proposition is a loser in Ca, like gay marriage is Tx. The rest of the propositions, like changing teacher tenure or how unions can spend their PAC money, were easily defeated with teachers, nurses, and firefighters coming out against them.

 

[kidwoo]

The rest of the propositions, like changing teacher tenure or how unions can spend their PAC money, were easily defeated with teachers, nurses, and firefighters coming out against them.

Kind of funny expecting your constiuency to vote to screw itself.

Ah what the hell......it worked on a national scale.

 

[Zark]

The Cali thing.....$50 million for a special election for bills that address budgetary issues.........What a counterproductive effort Ahhnold! Bravo!

 

[Changleen]

In other election results across the country:

* Texas banned gay marriage, while Maine refused to repeal a law banning discrimination against homosexuals

* Eight school board members in Pennsylvania who supported an alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution lost their seats to evolution supporters.

Boo Texas! Yay Maine and Pennsylvania!

 

[The Amish]

Nobody can tell ohio to buy a gun cuz it's now illegal in san fran. The unforseen enemy that can only be repelled by firearms will overtake them in no time.

Thats right, take all the guns away from the people least likely to use them, and let all the same thugs that posses them illegally hang on to them. Talk about tipping the scales in the bad guys favor, you've done absolutley nohing to confront the problem at it its source. How many times can you say it. Guns dont kill people, people kill people. I cant wait till all the illegal mexicans cali. has let flood the state decide to go french on their lilly asses, it will be a masacre. You'll all wish you'd picked your own damn oranges, mark my words.

 

[kidwoo]

Thats right, take all the guns away from the people least likely to use them, and let all the same thugs that posses them illegally hang on to them. Talk about tipping the scales in the bad guys favor, you've done absolutley nohing to confront the problem at it its source. .

Oh trust me, I appreciate the irony of the situation. It's not like the folks who will be lining up to turn in their firearms are the ones who need them taken away to reduce shootings or anything.

I cant wait till all the illegal mexicans cali. has let flood the state decide to go french on their lilly asses,.

They're going to get kissed?

You'll all wish you'd picked your own damn oranges,

Mmm fresh citrus.

So mexicans cause crime and are planning a revolt? What about the puerto ricans in new york? Are they going to start kissing new yorkers?

.mark my words

I do. They're always so unique and well informed.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Locally (WA state)

Looks like there is a new ban on ALL smoking in business. Bars and local casinos (non-tribal) You have to go outside atleast 25ft from a door or window of said establishment (or any other establishment next door)

Wanna guess how often that 25ft rule is not possible?

I don't even smoke and think this initiative is absolutely horrible. Bars could choose to go smoke free...there were Smoke free bar options out there. Just another way for holier than though John Q public to force the hand of others.

One big reason given for the inititive.....health of bartenders and waitresses. Hmmm didn't have a problem taking a job there or choosing to serve drinks (notoriously in a smoky environment) It is one big fluffy no good reason to make themselves feel better and sway voters into thinking it was a good idea.

Shame on all who voted for it.

Am I bitter?

Smoke Free should be a choice of the business owner(bars,casinos, etc) I can see resteraunts and office buildings, but BARS! :mumble:

Makes no sense to this non-smoker.

Rhino

 

[Echo]

Locally (WA state)

Looks like there is a new ban on ALL smoking in business. Bars and local casinos (non-tribal) You have to go outside atleast 25ft from a door or window of said establishment (or any other establishment next door)

Wanna guess how often that 25ft rule is not possible?

I don't even smoke and think this initiative is absolutely horrible. Bars could choose to go smoke free...there were Smoke free bar options out there. Just another way for holier than though John Q public to force the hand of others.

One big reason given for the inititive.....health of bartenders and waitresses. Hmmm didn't have a problem taking a job there or choosing to serve drinks (notoriously in a smoky environment) It is one big fluffy no good reason to make themselves feel better and sway voters into thinking it was a good idea.

Shame on all who voted for it.

Am I bitter?

Smoke Free should be a choice of the business owner(bars,casinos, etc) I can see resteraunts and office buildings, but BARS! :mumble:

Makes no sense to this non-smoker.

Rhino

Honestly dude, NY passed that law a couple years ago. Everyone bitched and predicted the end of the world, bar owners everywhere said they would be bankrupt, smokers everywhere vowed to boycott everything and go on hunger strikes, you would have thought it was armageddon. Now, 2 years later, nobody bitches anymore, the bars are making money just fine, and non-smokers can go out for a few beers and not come home smelling like an ashtray. Give it time, it's a great law that works.

 

[MMike]

Locally (WA state)

. Bars and local casinos (non-tribal) You have to go outside atleast 25ft from a door or window of said establishment (or any other establishment next door)

Wanna guess how often that 25ft rule is not possible?.

Rhino

The Emerald Queen? SPLASH!!

 

[blt2ride]

On the Cali note, I would say Schwarzenegger is going the one term route. Whether you agree with it or not, the abortion proposition is a loser in Ca, like gay marriage is Tx. The rest of the propositions, like changing teacher tenure or how unions can spend their PAC money, were easily defeated with teachers, nurses, and firefighters coming out against them.

I agree, there isn't much chance of Ahhnold running for a second term. Actually, he wouldn't really stand a chance at re-election. Every day his approval ratings just slide that much more. It's pretty bad when your own wife won't vote for your propositions.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Honestly dude, NY passed that law a couple years ago. Everyone bitched and predicted the end of the world, bar owners everywhere said they would be bankrupt, smokers everywhere vowed to boycott everything and go on hunger strikes, you would have thought it was armageddon. Now, 2 years later, nobody bitches anymore, the bars are making money just fine, and non-smokers can go out for a few beers and not come home smelling like an ashtray. Give it time, it's a great law that works.

Honestly, it is just another way for the god damn "know betters" to tell people how to live their lives.

There were smoke free establishments before this ban....they had places to go, but they wanted everywhere to be like they wanted. Sounds selfish to me. Honestly with good ventilation even smokey bars aren't that bad. It is 2-4 hours out of your week you are exposed to harmfull second hand smoke....as a personal "choice" made by the customer to go to the establishment. Is that detrimental to your health? You bar coat will be stinky....that might be the worst of it.

It is just another POC passed under the guise of protecting people when it was ultimately for non-smokers to push their life style all around. Will civilization end? No. Is this law needed? No.

1) couldn't smoke in offices, restaraunts (almost all of them are smoke free now)

2) Bars chose whether to be smoke free or not.

IMO, ultimately it should be the bar owners choice if he wants to go smoke free or not. That is just the way I feal. I don't smoke, but many of my friends do....I can give them a bad time for smoking but eliminating it from bars was pretty dumb.

Might as well close down the forrests to everyone....to protect them.

 

[kidwoo]

Sounds selfish to me. :

So is not being willing to go outside or to a designated room to make pollution.

Nobody said you can't smoke, just not where it's in other people's face if where they don't want it.

I live on the NV./CA border and it's really nice to go into bars in Cali and not have a sore throat the next day from other people's smoke. I used to smoke in college and for a while would smoke every so often out here and it's no big deal to step outside to have a cigarette. If anything it's a reason to socialize. I haven't touched a cigarette in about 5 years so I consider myself a non-smoker and it bugs the crap out of me now to go to other states and remember the mandatory wreak I'd walk out of a club or bar with.

It's as simple as this. Me not smoking next to you has no effect on you whatsoever. But me smoking next to you has a very pronounced effect. And it's more selfish to fight for the latter as the norm. Sounds like the majority of people in washington feel that way. People will always smoke when out drinking, it's not like it's being outlawed outright, just where it effects other people who find it distasteful. It's completely justified and will change very little about people who want a nic fix. Of all the things to get upset about, this really isn't one of them.

 

[Inclag]

Thats right, take all the guns away from the people least likely to use them, and let all the same thugs that posses them illegally hang on to them. Talk about tipping the scales in the bad guys favor, you've done absolutley nohing to confront the problem at it its source. How many times can you say it. Guns dont kill people, people kill people. I cant wait till all the illegal mexicans cali. has let flood the state decide to go french on their lilly asses, it will be a masacre. You'll all wish you'd picked your own damn oranges, mark my words.

Looks like we have PD Forum racist. Awesome

 

[The Amish]

I'm such a racist I just finished smokin a joint with the black kid I work with. What is the world coming too.

 

[RhinofromWA]

So is not being willing to go outside or to a designated room to make pollution.

Nobody said you can't smoke, just not where it's in other people's face if where they don't want it.

You are telling them where they can do it.

I live on the NV./CA border and it's really nice to go into bars in Cali and not have a sore throat the next day from other people's smoke. I used to smoke in college and for a while would smoke every so often out here and it's no big deal to step outside to have a cigarette. If anything it's a reason to socialize. I haven't touched a cigarette in about 5 years so I consider myself a non-smoker and it bugs the crap out of me now to go to other states and remember the mandatory wreak I'd walk out of a club or bar with.

A bar you chose to go into to.....

It's as simple as this. Me not smoking next to you has no effect on you whatsoever. But me smoking next to you has a very pronounced effect. And it's more selfish to fight for the latter as the norm. Sounds like the majority of people in washington feel that way. People will always smoke when out drinking, it's not like it's being outlawed outright, just where it effects other people who find it distasteful. It's completely justified and will change very little about people who want a nic fix. Of all the things to get upset about, this really isn't one of them.

Other than a stinky jacket you are not harmed from a limited exposure to 2nd hand smoke. It is like me going to a NHRA drag race and complaining that the noise hurts my ears. And pass legislation that a limits the sound output to all dragsters to the output of a Hybrid. Stupid.

What I hear from you is moer of the "know betters" attitude. It is a freaking bar! Get over yourself. There are already existing bars that cater to people who don't like to be smoky.....but that wasn't enough.

You have just as much choice to not go to a smokey bar as the smoker has to stand out in the street to light up. It is 25 ft from the door of any business.... not just stepping out side. Ultimately "the people" could not care less about personal choice and instead voted to stop other peoples recreation. Selfish.

If you have a problem with smokey bars there are plenty options out there. But now you have taken the choice away from the smokers...because you are selfish. It isn't rocket science. Might as well make the non-smokers drink outside in the rain....away from teh harmfull smoke. It is no different.

 

[Ciaran]

Might as well make the non-smokers drink outside in the rain....away from teh harmfull smoke. It is no different.

I'd be for that. Sorry man, I think kidwoo has you on this one. His arguments make more sense and are less selfish then yours. And like he said, there are many things to get angry about and fight... this isn't one of them.

 

[narlus]

I don't even smoke and think this initiative is absolutely horrible. Bars could choose to go smoke free...there were Smoke free bar options out there. Just another way for holier than though John Q public to force the hand of others.

One big reason given for the inititive.....health of bartenders and waitresses. Hmmm didn't have a problem taking a job there or choosing to serve drinks (notoriously in a smoky environment) It is one big fluffy no good reason to make themselves feel better and sway voters into thinking it was a good idea.

i tend to be a semi-libertarian, but i am 100% for a smoking ban in clubs and restaurants. i cannot tell you how awesome it is to go see a band in some club, and not come home reeking like you were in some sort of ashtray wrestling competition. i was fortunate enough to be living in dublin when the smoking bill finally got made into law as well.

 

[kidwoo]

. It is like me going to a NHRA drag race and complaining that the noise hurts my ears. And pass legislation that a limits the sound output to all dragsters to the output of a Hybrid. Stupid..

Actually it's nothing like that at all. I can wear earplugs and still enjoy the race, which I have done at the gatornationals where I went to college. I can't block my breathing and still function.

.
If you have a problem with smokey bars there are plenty options out there. .

Like what? The orange juice bar at the local nursing home? I've never been to a bar that's not smokey by it's own voluntary decision. Seriously. And I'm in the unusual situation of being able to choose which side of the state line I go out to drink on. I usually go to california because of this issue.

If it makes you feel any better, California has something similar to the 25 foot thing but almost every bar has a porch or something that you really can just step outside onto to smoke.

If you have a problem with smokey bars there are plenty options out there. But now you have taken the choice away from the smokers...because you are selfish.

Lack of consideration for other people's lungs just to satisfy your own addiction is more selfish.

Like I said not smoking has no effect on others. Smoking does.

Might as well make the non-smokers drink outside in the rain....away from teh harmfull smoke. It is no different.

Yeah actually it is.
Bars are functioning just fine in places where laws like this have passed as they are drinking establishments, not smoking establishments.

Get over yourself.

All I'm trying to do is present to you some of the reasoning behind why laws like this pass. There's no reason to attack me with condescension.

 

[narlus]

Other than a stinky jacket you are not harmed from a limited exposure to 2nd hand smoke. It is like me going to a NHRA drag race and complaining that the noise hurts my ears. And pass legislation that a limits the sound output to all dragsters to the output of a Hybrid. Stupid.

man, yr logic needs some serious alignment.

person A buys a ticket to see the cars (ie, he knows why he is going, and is paying). if it's too loud, he can stuff ear plugs in for protection (i've done this many times @ shows, and wish i started sooner).

person B goes into a bar to have a beer w/ some friends. does he stuff his mouth and nostrils w/ torn napkins if the air he's trying to breathe is suddenly filled w/ toxins?

see the difference?

 

[RhinofromWA]

I'd be for that. Sorry man, I think kidwoo has you on this one. His arguments make more sense and are less selfish then yours. And like he said, there are many things to get angry about and fight... this isn't one of them.

Well where to fit into the demographic? Where do you sit on the issue? neaky:

I guess people should just roll over and submitt to the other people who "know better" and just give in.

You got to pick your fights....are the words that come from who is on the "winning" side.

I am not really fighting it ....but I can voice my opinion that it is messed up. Right?

I don't see his arguement at all. It is no different, just depends on what side you are on. There were establishements to handle everybody now there will be only one group catered to.....Selfish. Nothing but a bunch of "liberals" in WA state forcing their "morals" down everyones throat.

Life is supposed to be full of choices....now choices have been taken away from individuals doing something perfectly legal. Tell me that is right?

Next time I see a law to bann MTBrs from the woods, I might as well vote for it....because the others know better than I. Just give in, there is global warming and "real" problems to worry about. Whatever.

 

[RhinofromWA]

man, yr logic needs some serious alignment.

person A buys a ticket to see the cars (ie, he knows why he is going, and is paying). if it's too loud, he can stuff ear plugs in for protection (i've done this many times @ shows, and wish i started sooner).

person B goes into a bar to have a beer w/ some friends. does he stuff his mouth and nostrils w/ torn napkins if the air he's trying to breathe is suddenly filled w/ toxins?

see the difference?

Person B goes to a bar he KNOWS WILL BE FULL OF SMOKE! You are freaking nuts if you can't relate the two. Yes he can wear a gas mask if he wants to venture into a Smokey Death Hole of a bar.

It is NO DIFFERENT. Check you thought process again.

Person B has a choice to go to a non-smoking bar. He chooses to go to a smokey bar. That is his choice. Now smokers are beign forced thier choice....there are no options for them they are told how it is going to go down. Non-smokers had bars to go to where they could party...smoke free. Smokers are not being given a choice of bars....something everyone had before.

 

[kidwoo]

Life is supposed to be full of choices....now choices have been taken away from individuals doing something perfectly legal. Tell me that is right?
.

I want an abortion.

.......and also to marry my boyfriend.

 

[MMike]

Sorry...you're on crack. Smoke is an artificial element that is being introduced into the system.

"Mind if I smoke?"
"No. Mind if I fart?"

Chosing to go a smokey bar?? The bar should be automatically smokey!!


Theoretically it's legal. I could also have my face two inches from yours and scream and spit. It's not illegal. I'm sure you would prefer I not do it though.

Person B goes to a bar he KNOWS WILL BE FULL OF SMOKE! You are freaking nuts if you can't relate the two. Yes he can wear a gas mask if he wants to venture into a Smokey Death Hole of a bar.

It is NO DIFFERENT. Check you thought process again.

Person B has a choice to go to a non-smoking bar. He chooses to go to a smokey bar. That is his choice. Now smokers are beign forced thier choice....there are no options for them they are told how it is going to go down. Non-smokers had bars to go to where they could party...smoke free. Smokers are not being given a choice of bars....something everyone had before.

 

[fluff]

It does seem a bit dumb that there are certain places in the world where I cannot open a building to the public to allow them to socialise whilst smoking. Rhino's arguments are not entirely without merit as some paint them.

 

[MMike]

It does seem a bit dumb that there are certain places in the world where I cannot open a building to the public to allow them to socialise whilst smoking. Rhino's arguments are not entirely without merit as some paint them.

You could open a private smoking club.....

 

[kidwoo]

It does seem a bit dumb that there are certain places in the world where I cannot open a building to the public to allow them to socialise whilst smoking. Rhino's arguments are not entirely without merit as some paint them.

I'm not sure how legal it is but there are a few clubs in california that have smoking rooms in lieu of easy outside access.

Even so, it's certainly not a universal thing in the states. Those with smoking bans are still in the minority. I'd love to see someone try to get it passed in Nevada. The casinos would start making concrete shoes again.

 

[narlus]

Person B goes to a bar he KNOWS WILL BE FULL OF SMOKE! You are freaking nuts if you can't relate the two. Yes he can wear a gas mask if he wants to venture into a Smokey Death Hole of a bar.

It is NO DIFFERENT. Check you thought process again.

Person B has a choice to go to a non-smoking bar. He chooses to go to a smokey bar. That is his choice. Now smokers are beign forced thier choice....there are no options for them they are told how it is going to go down. Non-smokers had bars to go to where they could party...smoke free. Smokers are not being given a choice of bars....something everyone had before.

w/o drag cars at drag strips, there are no cars and hence no noise. it's pretty obvious.

you can talk w/ friends, socialize, and have a beer w/o expecting to have yr pulmonary system assaulted; the two don't go hand-in-hand like the NHRA example you used.

 

[Ciaran]

Smokers can always go to the smoking section (outside) to get away from the clean air. Just like non smokers were forced to go to the non amoking section (outside) to get away from the dirty air.

Also, aren't most of these no smoking laws voted on by the public?

Smoking costs the public money, not smoking has all kinds of benefits.
The no smoking laws aren't taking away your right to kill yourself, just your ability to take someone with you. Also (at least here in cali) there ARE still bars you can smoke in. I have a choice between The Colorado - a dive bar with Guinness on tap and The Pogues on the jukebox -or- Lucky Baldwins - A pseudo Irish pub that gets crowded with yuppies but serves a mean Guinness and has the best Fish and Chips in town. You can smoke in The Colorado but not at Lucky Baldwins. I like the people and atmosphere better at The Colorado but I go to Lucky Baldwins because I hate my hair smelling like smoke for 3 days after.

No one is taking away your choice to smoke, just changing the details of that choice. Or think of it as the non-smokers payback for years of having to deal with smokers in restaurants, airplanes, bars, etc. We had to deal with you all making us smell like smoke and making us breath secon hand smoke. Now as payback go outside and freez while you smoke, bish!

 

[kidwoo]

Ciaran: How does that work? I thought california had a statewide ban that affected all public estabishments. No?

 

[Ciaran]

Ciaran: How does that work? I thought california had a statewide ban that affected all public estabishments. No?

Not sure. I am not sure if it's that the staff will take you out back and rough you up for squealing, or (someone once mentioned to me) that the law only affects establishments with X number of employees or what. I have no idea... all I know is that everyone smokes. They even brought new carpet in to put your butts out on.

 

[Echo]

Rhino, just a couple of points:

1) it was a proposition that was VOTED into law. It's not like some selfish lawmakers decreed this grave injustice upon the poor oppressed masses.

2) in NY, the law was not so much for the comfort of bar patrons, although that was a nice side effect. It was passed under worker's rights laws. Someone whose chosen profession is bartending has just as much right to work in a smoke free environment as a computer nerd.

3) just give it some time. Seriously every word you're saying right now was said VERBATIM when the law went into effect in NY. After a few months almost everyone who whined about it at first realized it's a good law. A good friend of mine owns a bar, and was pretty uneasy about how this law would affect his business. Now, he has the same number of customers as he ever had, he doesn't have to breathe smoke every night, and he's also discovered that he doesn't have to pay someone to clean brown sludge off the inside of the windows every week.

 

[Changleen]

It's pretty much true. We've had this law in the UK and I was over herein NZ when it was introduced. It is way nicer, and no bars have gone under. If anything more people feel like bars are nicer places to hang out now, and it's so nice not to have to wash your going out clothes by default if you even just walk into a place.

 

[narlus]

3) just give it some time. Seriously every word you're saying right now was said VERBATIM when the law went into effect in NY. After a few months almost everyone who whined about it at first realized it's a good law. A good friend of mine owns a bar, and was pretty uneasy about how this law would affect his business. Now, he has the same number of customers as he ever had, he doesn't have to breathe smoke every night, and he's also discovered that he doesn't have to pay someone to clean brown sludge off the inside of the windows every week.

i reckon the smoking rate in ireland's a lot higher than the Sea-Tac area, and the law went into being very smoothly, once one or two rebels from county Cork were threatened w/ big fines for ignoring the ordinance. of course, it's a tad easier in Eire as they allow you to bring yr pint w/ you to the sidewalk.

i wish i owned an awning company when that law went into effect.