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electronics on bikes

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
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Ottawa, Canada
http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/06/04/tech-speak-talking-electronic-shifting-suspension-control-and-bike-evolution-with-blackcatbone/#more-60946 really interesting article. Never heard of "mechatronics" before.

I like his point at the end that electronics will undoubtedly make its way onto mountain bikes (in a sense it aready has with Lapierre and Fox et al.), but that doing so on a rear derailleur that's always so prone to damage sucks. Maybe, just maybe, this is the ticket for gearbox bikes? make them mechatronic and they just might work... I also like the idea of sensors on cranks and brakes to control LSC damping on the shock and the fork...

anyways, pretty cool stuff, I thought I'd throw it up here to see what poo the monkeys can fling at it...
 

sundaydoug

Monkey
Jun 8, 2009
609
271
It's innovative for sure and I can see electronic drivetrain working its way into the high-end XC market at some point. I'm thinking it's going to face an uphill battle though, even moreso than Di2 on road bikes. It's expensive and not really necessary.
 

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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It's innovative for sure and I can see electronic drivetrain working its way into the high-end XC market at some point. I'm thinking it's going to face an uphill battle though, even moreso than Di2 on road bikes. It's expensive and not really necessary.
this is exactly why its perfect for the high end xc market.
 

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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fwiw, the only battle Di2 stuff faces in road is cost of entry. everyone raves about it, not everyone can afford it. its not a system where you can upgrade piece by piece.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
the article talks about more than electronic shifting though. like automatic adjustments to LSC based on power input at the cranks (firm the LSC way up for improved pedalling under power) and braking (hit the brakes and it firms up the LSC of the forks a bit to improve ride height). All automatic. that seems pretty cool to me.
 

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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its a cool concept, but if your suspension is properly tuned, is it really necessary? seems like an awful lot of work for not a whole lot of benefit.
 

Mo(n)arch

Turbo Monkey
Dec 27, 2010
4,441
1,422
Italy/south Tyrol
The market needs something new. Carbonz for everyone is only a matter of time and wheelsizes - well - we have more than enough of them.
Now you need electronics :think:

But for realz: I think for a few applications it would be beneficial - think about a trailbike with remote locking suspension and a telescopic seatpost whitout cable salad...
 
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jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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The market needs something new. Carbonz for everyone is only a matter of time and wheelsizes - well - we have more than enough of them.
Now you need electronics :think:
electronic carbon.

big advantage of electronic drivetrains? bye bye barrel adjusters. sh*t's self adjusting. its like skynet. but on your bike. and not necessarily trying to kill you
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
its a cool concept, but if your suspension is properly tuned, is it really necessary? seems like an awful lot of work for not a whole lot of benefit.
that's part of what tweaked me a bit. He says something about anti-squat necessarily leads to pedal kickback, there's no way around it. But I thought that was what DW sought to do with his suspension designs. And for the most part, I've found it to work quite well, I haven't really noticed much pedal feedback on my Mojo HD, which pedals so well while remaining very active when needed. to be honest, the part that piqued my interest most was the fork height being tied to braking. that's one bit of electronics I find I could use. then again, I haven't ridden anything other than a super-divey Fox 36 Talas in over 8 years, so I might not know how a properly tuned front suspension works...
 
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jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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that's part of what tweaked me a bit. He says something about anti-squat necessarily leads to pedal kickback, there's no way around it. But I thought that was what DW sought to do with his suspension designs. And for the most part, I've found it to work quite well, I haven't really noticed much pedal feedback on my Mojo HD, which pedals so well while remaining very active when needed.
this. it also appears he's riding some version of an FSR, which do have some pedal feedback. who knows how much time he put into the actual kinematics of the suspension. it could just have some terrible shock curve.
 

blindboxx2334

Turbo Monkey
Mar 19, 2013
1,340
101
Wets Coast
its a cool concept, but if your suspension is properly tuned, is it really necessary? seems like an awful lot of work for not a whole lot of benefit.
this.

i really dont like even thinking about putting electronic stuff on my bike.

one of my favorite things about riding is how much joy one can get from riding a very simple bike. out on the trail, its just you, your bike, and your buddies. i dont want electronics interfering with the relationship me and my bike have got..:rolleyes: its just not needed.
 

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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this.

i really dont like even thinking about putting electronic stuff on my bike.

one of my favorite things about riding is how much joy one can get from riding a very simple bike. out on the trail, its just you, your bike, and your buddies. i dont want electronics interfering with the relationship me and my bike have got..:rolleyes: its just not needed.
obligatory smart aleck response:

when most people can't get their fork to work right, they just get a different fork.
 

Beef Supreme

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2010
1,434
73
Hiding from the stupid
its a cool concept, but if your suspension is properly tuned, is it really necessary? seems like an awful lot of work for not a whole lot of benefit.
I am the perfect predictor of what Fox will do. If I don't want it, they will go in balls deep.

I want to dial in my fork and leave it there. No! Here are some electronics
It would be nice if I could bleed built up pressure on a trail fork. No. This has a travel adjustment.
How about you make a shorter travel RC2 fork? No! have some CTD crap.
20mm seems like a good system. No! 15mm it is.
Could you make so my air spring doesn't suck up the bath oil? OK! We assembled it without oil.
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/06/04/tech-speak-talking-electronic-shifting-suspension-control-and-bike-evolution-with-blackcatbone/#more-60946 really interesting article. Never heard of "mechatronics" before.

I like his point at the end that electronics will undoubtedly make its way onto mountain bikes (in a sense it aready has with Lapierre and Fox et al.), but that doing so on a rear derailleur that's always so prone to damage sucks. Maybe, just maybe, this is the ticket for gearbox bikes? make them mechatronic and they just might work... I also like the idea of sensors on cranks and brakes to control LSC damping on the shock and the fork...

anyways, pretty cool stuff, I thought I'd throw it up here to see what poo the monkeys can fling at it...
mechatronics



I want one on my bike!!!
 

Pslide

Turbo Monkey
electronic carbon.

big advantage of electronic drivetrains? bye bye barrel adjusters. sh*t's self adjusting. its like skynet. but on your bike. and not necessarily trying to kill you
Can I hack into the system and send a signal to the bike in front of me to downshift right before a big hill?

As much as I hate electronics even near my bikes, the thought of a eliminating all the cables on my bike makes me think twice...
 

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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not to worry, its gonna be a looooooooooooooooooooong time before cost of electronic shifting comes down enough to wipe out mechanical mechanicals
 

kickstand

Turbo Monkey
Sep 18, 2009
3,441
392
Fenton, MI
not to worry, its gonna be a looooooooooooooooooooong time before cost of electronic shifting comes down enough to wipe out mechanical mechanicals
I'm not worried.

By then I'll likely be crippled, or flying a hovercraft for entertainment instead anyway
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,908
634
ridemonkey - where innovation goes to die.

Somebody thinks they can improve the enjoyment we can receive from our bikes through performance. At the moment, nobody is forcing you to buy anything. If it turns out they're right, great, sign me up. If it turns out they're wrong, oh well, good on them for giving it a shot. This is how suspension came to be. This is how your disc brakes came to be. This is why you have adjustable posts on your trail bikes. This is why you have sweet treaded tires instead of cruiser tires.

Somebody things they can improve whats out there, and if they do, then it sticks sometimes. You don't have to hate it because it might mean you have the opportunity to spend more money down the line in exchange for a better product, and you don't have to form an opinion to let people know that you're knowledgeable.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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I would like to have an electric tea bag device on my saddle that would deliver an electric shock to my balls every time I sit down in a race run.
replace your seatpost with an electric caddle prod, i'm sure you can find something in the right diameter.

see that? innovation!
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
I reckon the idea is great. There are SO many shortcuts you can take with electronics that let you achieve things that otherwise aren't ever even considered by purely mechanical designers, but the cost and increased likelihood of failure (especially with early generations of stuff like this), not to mention however much added weight, are enough to put a lot of people off. The guy interviewed in that article makes a lot of sense though.

From a suspension point of view though, I find it interesting whenever someone says they think it'd be easy to make an electronically controlled damping adjustment that adapts to whatever you're doing at the time. It's difficult enough to tune a damper to do ONE thing properly, having to calibrate adjustments for a minimum of 2 modes, and optimise the setting for each mode, would be a hell of a design challenge, especially given the relatively poor damping traits of many of the trailbike shocks currently on the market (where this stuff is appearing at the moment). A lot of this stuff has enormous potential to add variables to the setup equation, rather than reduce them as it may first appear, but if that can be overcome then there is no doubt in my mind that electronics is the future.
 

sethimus

neu bizutch
Feb 5, 2006
4,882
2,133
not in Whistler anymore :/
I reckon the idea is great. There are SO many shortcuts you can take with electronics that let you achieve things that otherwise aren't ever even considered by purely mechanical designers, but the cost and increased likelihood of failure (especially with early generations of stuff like this), not to mention however much added weight, are enough to put a lot of people off. The guy interviewed in that article makes a lot of sense though.

From a suspension point of view though, I find it interesting whenever someone says they think it'd be easy to make an electronically controlled damping adjustment that adapts to whatever you're doing at the time. It's difficult enough to tune a damper to do ONE thing properly, having to calibrate adjustments for a minimum of 2 modes, and optimise the setting for each mode, would be a hell of a design challenge, especially given the relatively poor damping traits of many of the trailbike shocks currently on the market (where this stuff is appearing at the moment). A lot of this stuff has enormous potential to add variables to the setup equation, rather than reduce them as it may first appear, but if that can be overcome then there is no doubt in my mind that electronics is the future.
just needs good sensors. glad the whole world is gonna sensor crazy in the next few years, if you can wear it, our bikes should too. the stuff happening right now in the mobile world will definitly trickle down to something usefull for bikes.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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I reckon the idea is great. There are SO many shortcuts you can take with electronics that let you achieve things that otherwise aren't ever even considered by purely mechanical designers, but the cost and increased likelihood of failure (especially with early generations of stuff like this), not to mention however much added weight, are enough to put a lot of people off. The guy interviewed in that article makes a lot of sense though.

From a suspension point of view though, I find it interesting whenever someone says they think it'd be easy to make an electronically controlled damping adjustment that adapts to whatever you're doing at the time. It's difficult enough to tune a damper to do ONE thing properly, having to calibrate adjustments for a minimum of 2 modes, and optimise the setting for each mode, would be a hell of a design challenge, especially given the relatively poor damping traits of many of the trailbike shocks currently on the market (where this stuff is appearing at the moment). A lot of this stuff has enormous potential to add variables to the setup equation, rather than reduce them as it may first appear, but if that can be overcome then there is no doubt in my mind that electronics is the future.
let's discuss the obvious. it's not used in moto. :bonk:
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,032
5,925
borcester rhymes
With all the computing power contained in something as small as an ipod touch, I'm amazed that nobody has done more with bike/computer integration. I mean, you could plug in the ipod on the downtube, and there's your battery, computer controller, and connection. You could have flexible circuit board printed right on your downtube to connect your derailleur and shifters:



No more cable to get tangled. You could add sensors and piezo electric valves to your suspension (Hell yeah 1997) and they could be connected to the device.

I've also though about an electronic seatpost. An electronic motor and pin system would probably be possible, and would get rid of all the air valving and oil damping. A three position post would require a tiny switch.

I've often wondered about electric brakes. http://papers.sae.org/2012-01-1801/ An Electronic wedge brake would be a possibility for a bike, with limitless power and a computer to reduce lockup and adjust power curve...why not?

On a downhill bike battery life really isn't an issue. Buy a second ipod with the same "tune", and plug it in for the second half of the day. Charge em up overnight (everybody has an iphone charger).

I think there's a ****load of potential, especially on something as experimental as downhill bikes. Making it work right is going to take a brave soul and lots of fine tuning, but the possibilities are awesome.