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Elka Stage 4 fork cartridge

Delimeat

Monkey
Feb 3, 2009
195
0
Canada
Thought you nerds may be interested in the Elka Stage 4 fork cartridge on Pinkbike. Should be updated with some images of the internals at some point tomorrow once I get my paws on them... didn't want to sit on this one until then!

Thoughts? I'm pumped for the Fox 36 version. Finally some love for the AM guys who want another options!
 
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Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
Surprisingly expensive given how cheap their shocks are (relatively speaking, of course), even more than an Avalanche cart... hope it delivers the same ride quality of their rear shocks, though hopefully without the clunking.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
Is there any advantage using a sealed nitrogen charged cartridge over the more conventional Avy style cartridge?
For:
- No chance of foaming if it's properly bled
- Pressurised backflow through the check valve on the compression assembly means you don't need to use such a light spring or allow the check valve to open so far, meaning less of a knock or moment of sticking when the fork changes direction. The kind of knock/stiction between comp/rebound I'm talking about is pretty noticeable in Vivid and DHX5 shocks for example.
- Works with a 40 and its lack of real pressure seals
- Lighter than filling your fork up with a litre of oil
- Stops numpties working on it
- People like words like "sealed" and "nitrogen" even if they don't like being "charged" more for the privilege.
- Lubrication oil is separate to the damping fluid, meaning service intervals for the damper are longer.

Against:
- Pressurised reservoirs with forks means they have a noticeable amount of preload (anyone who's ridden a 1st-gen BOS Idylle will know what I mean) which can feel like stiction at the top of the stroke
- More seals means more friction, no two ways about it
- Harder for ANYONE to work on it (possibly not user-serviceable?)
- More complex = more expensive
- Requires bleeding; improper bleed can make the thing knock, though the pressurisation should make that a non-issue unless the bleed is really bad
- Hard enough to fit single adjusters to each end of the cart (ie low speed comp at the top, low speed rebound at the bottom), let alone high/low speed concentric comp adjusters, because the IFP will have to slide over one of the shafts.
- More seals where stuff can blow up or leak. In an open-bath cart, a bit of leakage past a glide-ring or a seal doesn't matter much, in a sealed cartridge it's the difference between working properly and not working at all.

IF the thing is well-designed and well-made then the potential negatives should be able to be wiped out (ie stiction reduced to insignificant amounts, reliability acceptable etc), but if it's not then you'll hear about it via the interwebs about 2 weeks before anyone has actually ridden it.
 
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Uncle Cliffy

Turbo Monkey
Jan 28, 2008
4,490
42
Southern Oregon
Socket: I aspire to have the amount of damper knowledge you seem to have. Seriously... I read that post and my brain hurts. (I've always been more hands on with mechanical stuff, so reading about how something like that baffles me sometimes.)
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
Socket: I aspire to have the amount of damper knowledge you seem to have. Seriously... I read that post and my brain hurts. (I've always been more hands on with mechanical stuff, so reading about how something like that baffles me sometimes.)
Well take it with a grain of salt... I was taking the piss out of myself with that last line, I haven't even ever touched the thing! :)
 

RayB

Monkey
Jan 31, 2008
744
95
Seattle
My thoughts...

Without delving into the technical details (Socket pretty much covered it all), I simply think it's great to see products like this because it provides competition and [hopefully] drives innovation. I'm really stoked to see the Fox 36 replacement cartridge. There are a lot more 36's out there than 40's/Boxxer's and the consumer base for the "AM"/"trail"-bike genre is growing at a blistering pace.

I wonder if Craig @ Avalanche takes note of this, and follows up with a similar product for single-crown forks. Given the rave reviews his Boxxer/888 replacement cartridges have been getting, I can only assume he would make a cult killing ($$$$$) on this market segment.
 

SthFRider

Monkey
Apr 16, 2008
218
0
Atlanta,Ga
So it gives you low speed adjustment and rebound. But what if you have a 2010 team. Do you loose high speed and the dual rebound adjustment. Seems like you loose some adjustability. Could be wrong...
 

boogenman

Turbo Monkey
Nov 3, 2004
4,290
973
BUFFALO
Socket is so smart from going to Jew B.

SthFRider, the 3 different tuning options for the shim stack will make up for the HS adjusters on the Boxxer.

I would choose the Avy over the Elka just from Elka's half ass track record in the past 2 years.

Does anyone else think the Elka is a downgrade from a Fox 40? Fox 40 is shimmed, has HS and LS compression and is sealed.
 

Delimeat

Monkey
Feb 3, 2009
195
0
Canada
Just posted up some internals photos provided by Pat, have a look. I'm hoping to get my paws on one at some point soon. Having spent a bunch of time on the CR1 cart I am interested to see how this feels in comparison.
 

SthFRider

Monkey
Apr 16, 2008
218
0
Atlanta,Ga
Socket is so smart from going to Jew B.

SthFRider, the 3 different tuning options for the shim stack will make up for the HS adjusters on the Boxxer.

I would choose the Avy over the Elka just from Elka's half ass track record in the past 2 years.

Does anyone else think the Elka is a downgrade from a Fox 40? Fox 40 is shimmed, has HS and LS compression and is sealed.
ahhhh gotcha...

I would agree. Id rather go the avy route. Anyone got one in a 2010 boxxer? Thoughts?
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
Does anyone else think the Elka is a downgrade from a Fox 40? Fox 40 is shimmed, has HS and LS compression and is sealed.
Almost everything for the past 5 years has been shimmed, it's only Rockshox who have had any (remotely "high-end") dampers that weren't in that time. Adjustability is cool, but let's face it, no amount of adjustability makes up for poor damper tunes - perfect example is the current Boxxer. Without actually riding it, there is no way to say whether it's an upgrade or a downgrade in a 40. There are definitely ways you could improve over the stock tune (and reliability for that matter) of a pre-2010 40 IMO, though the new Kashima ones are remarkably good to ride. The devil is in the details, specs on paper like how many adjustments something has are largely unimportant anyway.
 

Jase76

Monkey
Aug 10, 2007
176
0
Australia
So, bit of a gravedig.:)

How have these held up for people?

I'm in a position to get one of these for my Boxxer Team and want to know how they've been to live with. All I can find is initial ride reviews.
 

NY_Star

Turbo Monkey
With my experience with working on ELKA ATV shocks i can tell you i would be staying far far away from anything they do in the MTB world. Also i just picked up a Avalanche fork cartridge for a Boxxer. Installed real easy and works great. Just need more time on it before i can really give a decent review.
 

Ian Collins

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,428
0
Pacific Beach, San Diego, CA
With my experience with working on ELKA ATV shocks i can tell you i would be staying far far away from anything they do in the MTB world. Also i just picked up a Avalanche fork cartridge for a Boxxer. Installed real easy and works great. Just need more time on it before i can really give a decent review.
hm....i can't speak for their fork cartridge as i haven't ridden it yet, but i have an elka rear shock and it's pretty amazing....tons of range in the adjustments, smooth and consistent....also Erik from the US service center has been RAD to work with and helped me get a perfect tune for a turner DHR....i've got nothing but good things to say, and i'd like to try the fork cartridge soon
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
What's the issue with their ATV units? No experience with those. Just curious.

Also what/where is their US service center?
 

Jase76

Monkey
Aug 10, 2007
176
0
Australia
So no one with actual long term experience with one eh?

Hmmm, I might have to take the gamble. Though the Avy cart looks pretty good too, I'll toss a coin...
 

Routier07

Monkey
Mar 14, 2009
259
0
I have roughly 3 months of riding on mine. I originally opted for a Medium tune and was running a soft(yellow) spring and felt that the stock internal High-Speed Comp was abit to stiff for my slow arse, so the guys at Elka were nice enough to do a re-valve to a softer High-Speed, the LSC and Rebound remained the same. So far it feels quite abit better through the rough and chatter compared to the stock 2010 Team internals, feedback through the bars is greatly reduced compared to the old team internals. Is it $500 worth of an upgrade over the team internals.. no. However if your getting a sweet deal on a cart and want increased reliability over the stock internals then giver.

Just a background, before purchasing the Elka Cart I tried damn near everything to get the stock internals to feel good... Slick Honeyd the eff out of every sliding surface within the fork. Got the rebound cart "warrantied"... Serviced the fork every 2 hours... Even with the comp adjustments I was still getting way too much feedback through the bars.
 

Corbinworks

Chimp
Aug 17, 2011
2
0
Tampa FL USA
I'm sure this will not help but I have had Elka on all my race quads and love them..they have great CS and make a nice part..I am looking fwd to seeing them on bikes...
 

Eli.

Chimp
Aug 14, 2011
12
0
So no one with actual long term experience with one eh?

Hmmm, I might have to take the gamble. Though the Avy cart looks pretty good too, I'll toss a coin...
Why gamble? Buy a known quantity like the avalanche. Craig has been in this market for a long time and has always done it right. With the avy you know you'll be able to get parts and service for as long as you own the cartridge.
 

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
Avy is, from what I know, basically a one person show. Perhaps theres more, i dunno. A good company for sure, but hardly a cornerstone of the industry.

Elka is a larger, established company. Maybe not in bikes, but in other vehicles, from what I understand.

As such, your argument is ridiculous. :)


Its debatable that either are better, to be honest. Different yes, but better? I dunno about that. That would mean a couple of tiny companies out there are much better than a multimillion dollar company with multiple engineers on staff. I'm not saying you can't improve on stuff, just honestly wondering if they are an actual improvement. I wonder how many people buy these things and say that they are better just because they feel different from the stock system?
 

Ian Collins

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,428
0
Pacific Beach, San Diego, CA
Avy is, from what I know, basically a one person show. Perhaps theres more, i dunno. A good company for sure, but hardly a cornerstone of the industry.

Elka is a larger, established company. Maybe not in bikes, but in other vehicles, from what I understand.

As such, your argument is ridiculous. :)


Its debatable that either are better, to be honest. Different yes, but better? I dunno about that. That would mean a couple of tiny companies out there are much better than a multimillion dollar company with multiple engineers on staff. I'm not saying you can't improve on stuff, just honestly wondering if they are an actual improvement. I wonder how many people buy these things and say that they are better just because they feel different from the stock system?
so.....are you saying these aren't worth the money because the average consumer isn't discerning enough to understand their suspension and how it feels/should feel? if so that's pretty cynical and presumptuous.....maybe i'm reading you wrong....i mean, i agree....there are alot of people out there riding DH simply aren't really in tune, but there are also a great deal of tech savvy guys that can ride at a good clip, and understand suspension all the while....
 

Jase76

Monkey
Aug 10, 2007
176
0
Australia
Actually, Elka has more support than Avalanche in my country. But thats beside the point, I just wanted to know how they've been reliability wise, since the reason I want a cartridge in the first place is my Boxxer keeps sh*tting itself.
 
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HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,637
5,455
Avy is, from what I know, basically a one person show. Perhaps theres more, i dunno. A good company for sure, but hardly a cornerstone of the industry.

Elka is a larger, established company. Maybe not in bikes, but in other vehicles, from what I understand.

As such, your argument is ridiculous. :)


Its debatable that either are better, to be honest. Different yes, but better? I dunno about that. That would mean a couple of tiny companies out there are much better than a multimillion dollar company with multiple engineers on staff. I'm not saying you can't improve on stuff, just honestly wondering if they are an actual improvement. I wonder how many people buy these things and say that they are better just because they feel different from the stock system?
If you are saying Eli's argument is crap I call yours crap too, a one man company can't make a good product? The Avy cart is fairly simple and the average punter could repair a worn or broken AVY cartridge at home as Craig has detailed pics that show every component on the site.

I am still unimpressed with every Elka Stage five equipped bike I have sat on and for that reason I wouldn't bother with the cart. I have an AVY cart and I liked the feel but Rockshox who some may call a cornerstone of the biking industry can't work out how to machine a ****ing casting so I am forced to run the **** RS damper.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,560
AK
Avy is, from what I know, basically a one person show. Perhaps theres more, i dunno. A good company for sure, but hardly a cornerstone of the industry.

Elka is a larger, established company. Maybe not in bikes, but in other vehicles, from what I understand.

As such, your argument is ridiculous. :)


Its debatable that either are better, to be honest. Different yes, but better? I dunno about that. That would mean a couple of tiny companies out there are much better than a multimillion dollar company with multiple engineers on staff. I'm not saying you can't improve on stuff, just honestly wondering if they are an actual improvement. I wonder how many people buy these things and say that they are better just because they feel different from the stock system?
Avy is significantly cheaper, also availabile with a higher-tech mid-valve for more support/dive resistance while keeping suspension performance, not to mention not pressurized and easier modification (rather than the "3 tunes" of elka).

I think the Avy stuff has quite a few benefits over Elka. That doesn't mean Elka doesn't work or is trash, but the Avy cart has been great for me.

Your argument might make sense if we simply discounted the last 15 years of mountain bike suspension development, because the "technology" has been here all along, just that most mtb companies refused to use it and half-assed their stuff, like with hydracoil, TST, original motion control, SSV, etc... These companies were plenty "big", they just saw more benefit in selling a bunch of units rather than really making high performance stuff. Is fox, RS or anyone else doing anything significantly different with dampers that Avalanche wasn't doing more than 12 years ago? Nope, and therein lies the real point. Luckily, in the last few years the major manufacturers have stepped up big time.

That "multiple engineers" stuff just doesn't make sense. Heck, look at the airplanes I fly, most of them are using engine technology from the 1930s, huge cylinders and displacement, magnetos, super-high octane fuel, poor efficiency, etc. Faced with the eventual end of the high-octane fuel supply, we are just now starting to see some breakthrough in this area, diesel (jet-a) engines, some auto engines being used in aircraft, automotive type injection and ignition control, and so on. This technology has existed for a LONG time, and yes, Lycoming and Continental have hundreds of engineers, but there was nothing pushing them to develop new technology, or a better way to explain: apply/adapt existing technology into aviation. American auto makers got a similar kick in the rear recently, but again, it's not like japanese performance, reliability and efficiency were out of reach.
 
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FCLinder

Turbo Monkey
Mar 6, 2002
4,402
0
Greenville, South Carolina
The whole RM East Team runs Elka this year. Elka has given us Top Notch support throughout the whole year. We are all running the Stage 5 rear shocks and half are running the Stage 4 Fork Cartridge. The biggest thing that stands out about their performance has been the consistency of the stroke all the way down a run. Not like other stock products out there heating up and getting harder throughout the run. Tuning is super easy and you see a good amount of change in the different settings from start to stop. Not like most product where you don't see a change in the setting till your almost turned the adjustments all the way. We all are running the Mid Tune for the Fork Cartridge and like the Dampening.

As for the people working at Elka, they have been a great group to work with and offer a great bit of knowledge in the suspension world. I can say you will see some new products from them in 2012 that will give them more of a range of products to compete against Rock Shox, Fox, Etc. in the DH market

Cecil

Also if you just want to put a few extra $$'s in your current Boxxer, Fox, Etc. Fork, send it to Kevin at Suspension Experts. He has well over 20 years of fine tuning MTB Suspension for top riders. He can make you stock Fork feel more like a high end race fork geared for your weight and riding style.

http://www.mtbsuspensionexperts.com/
 
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