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Elton John: Ban Organised Religion!

Old Man G Funk

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
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@Kinghami
OK, asking for a better explanation is fine, but that's not how it came across to me in your original comment.

@both
Certainly, expression can take many forms. When that expression is private, or done with a like-minded group, I don't think any of us can complain. When that expression, however, spills over into the personal lives of those who don't share your beliefs, then we've got a problem, no?

So, how do we find a middle ground?

Banning is not the right answer. It wouldn't have the desired affect anyway. But, what constitutes expression to you? It sounds like you think that every action you take is somehow expressive of your religion?
 
LordOpie

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Old Man G Funk said:
It sounds like you think that every action you take is somehow expressive of your religion?
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for the record, I'm not an observant jew in any sense. I believe, but have issues and do not display or express what little beliefs I have... I just think banning is sofa king we todd ed.

Also for the record, for what I know, jews don't mind christmas displays or other expressions, they just want equal marketing time.

As for the arguement that it spills over, so does ALL other forms of marketing. Just cuz I prefer Coke over Pepsi doesn't mean that Pepsi should stop advertising.

So I say, if it doesn't actually harm a person, suck it up princess.
 
kinghami3

kinghami3

Future Turbo Monkey
Jun 1, 2004
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Ballard 4 life.
Old Man G Funk said:
@Kinghami
OK, asking for a better explanation is fine, but that's not how it came across to me in your original comment.
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Sorry, I just woke up and posted that 5 minutes later.
It sounds like you think that every action you take is somehow expressive of your religion?
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Not every action. What do you consider "spill[ing] over into the personal lives of those who don't share your beliefs"? That could be what I'm doing right now.
 
Old Man G Funk

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
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kinghami3 said:
Sorry, I just woke up and posted that 5 minutes later.
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Fair enough. Hopefully Chang reads through it all and sees that you were asking for clarification.
Not every action. What do you consider "spill[ing] over into the personal lives of those who don't share your beliefs"? That could be what I'm doing right now.
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Well, the example of this thread is the treatment of gays. If one wants to treat gays as second class citizens as a personal thing, then that's one's business. It's sh*tty and all, but there's not much we can do, unless that person crosses the line, legally. When that person lobbies for legislative action, it's crossing the line. And, when legislatures enact laws that impose their religious beliefs on others, it crosses the line as well. So, using the case of gays, why are we outlawing gay marriage? The real reason is that people are finding it offensive to their religious sensibilities, so they enact laws that force all people to follow the religious sensibilities of a subset of the people.
 
Changleen

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,923
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kinghami3 said:
Good lord man, I agree with Opie... I always thought you were more open than that. Might as well ban any and all self expression then. For me, my self expression is first and foremost Christian, and it would be the same for any true follower of a religion. Personally, I don't find how you think atheism is rational, so I find your thoughts hypocritical, if anything. There is always something to debate about. I don't want to force my religion onto you, but if I don't express it, wouldn't I be doing myself an injustice? I wouldn't even be able to discuss this with you. You don't have to believe what I believe, but I'm willing to argue that society will not advance one way or another without religious expression and debate.
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Mostly I'm trying to piss off Opie enough to get him to call me a Nazi or something so I can make Jew-roasting jokes. :D Score!

Seriously though.

I don't want to stop you thinking whatever you want to think or believe. However like OMGF said I have a point of view that society as a whole is better guided and directed by the principals of logic and evidence, which at many levels can fail to occur in a theocratic society.

My comment about crowd control was highly ambiguous, I meant it too be. People will take it to mean the worst.

What I really think is that religious institutions of a certain size like to (or somehow always end up) pushing their ideals on society. It would be a nice thing if this did not happen. We could get on with the progression of science so much faster.

Banning religion as Elton suggests is certainly a simplistic and I'm sure ultimately counter-productive method of achieving this - I'm sure it wouldn't work in anything like the way it was intended. Banning things never does. But it is a nice thing to contemplate a world where people are not largely of the opinion that the contents of their storybook is the absolute truth.

(Seriously, Xtians - What about all the other religions? From a purely statistical point of view, and assuming one of them is correct (which I personally don't) the chances are you have picked the wrong one. Maybe Opie really is once of the chosen people! Scary though I know.)

Morals and ethics will become merely a matter of neurons and chemical balances, beauty will become objective, and ontology will lose its wonder.
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This is really not true. The way I see it, the 'god' answer is a cop out which prevents religious people from accepting the full beauty and complexity of the universe. Essentially once a religious person is confronted with a certain level of complexity or a difficult question, the answer becomes 'god did it'. To me it far more interesting to wonder about the complexity of events which have given rise to amazing things we see around us everyday.
 
Old Man G Funk

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
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Changleen said:
This is really not true. The way I see it, the 'god' answer is a cop out which prevents religious people from accepting the full beauty and complexity of the universe. Essentially once a religious person is confronted with a certain level of complexity or a difficult question, the answer becomes 'god did it'. To me it far more interesting to wonder about the complexity of events which have given rise to amazing things we see around us everyday.
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Have you read Unweaving the Rainbow by Dawkins? The whole book is basically devoted to this idea.
 
DaveW

DaveW

Space Monkey
Jul 2, 2001
11,754
3,243
The bunker at parliament
I do love the way you all seem to ignore one of the key operative words in the original elton story..... "Organized"
He's cool with religion just not the way religion is organized into systems that perpetuate hatred and/or fear of any others right to self expression.
:bonk:
 
LordOpie

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
DaveW said:
I do love the way you all seem to ignore one of the key operative words in the original elton story..... "Organized"
He's cool with religion just not the way religion is organized into systems that perpetuate hatred and/or fear of any others right to self expression.
:bonk:
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he's a fvckin' commie pinko bastard.

USSR was 'ok' with religion too, you just couldn't organize it.
 
GumbaFish

GumbaFish

Turbo Monkey
Oct 5, 2004
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Rochester N.Y.
Banning organized religion is like banning eating food for some people, its a pretty silly idea. I can't disagree that organized religion can and has caused a lot of problems, but come on Elton you have to think of something a little better.
 
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