Quantcast

End to petroleum based society?

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by W4S, Oct 3, 2005.

  1. W4S

    W4S Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    3 / 23
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,284
    Location:
    Back in Hell A, b1thces
    #1 -   Oct 3, 2005

    Please register to disable this ad.

  2. LOOnatic

    LOOnatic Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    4 / 2
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2002
    Messages:
    2,516
    Location:
    Hucking Race lines at WindRock while i wait for jo
    Pretty spot on.
    However, the next big thing looks to be tar sands. Canada is already extracting heavy oil from tar sands and the technique is spreading.
    I'm a big advocate of bio-diesel but its gonna be interesting to see what happens as China and India modernize and they need lots of oil too.
    Doesn't look good for the average joe.
    FYI: good ,clean plant based bio-diesel can be made at home for under a dollar!
     
    #2 -   Oct 3, 2005
  3. Tenchiro

    Tenchiro Attention K Mart Shoppers

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Messages:
    5,407
    Location:
    New England
    I think that aside from bio-diesel, Brazil has the right idea with their Ethanol production. Every single gas station there has it (usually at half the price of gasoline), and Chevrolet has opened a new plant that makes cars specifically with Ethanol in mind as the primary fuel source.
     
    #3 -   Oct 3, 2005
  4. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 4
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Messages:
    6,640
    Location:
    SF, CA
    Actually this is an interesting one, I'm just finding out more about. I've heard lots of people advocate it:
    "it's cleaner"
    "it's US grown"
    "it shortens to carbon cycle."
    Then, someone pretty reputable went on a tirade about it. According to them (again, I source I tend to trust) ethanol refining takes more energy (off the power grid) than it produces in a combustion engine. He said that the ethanol content required in gasoline (in certain states... maybe federally now too), was basically pushed through by the corn lobby and isn't saving us a lick of fossil fuel, which we burn to refine the ethanol. They're doing a tremendous job of marketing.

    That being said, an old professor of mine currently has a bio-tech start-up that has created a yeast that refines ethanol from biomass. No external energy required, other than keeping them warm. I have no idea how far from commercialization they are....
     
    #4 -   Oct 3, 2005
  5. DRB

    DRB unemployed bum

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2002
    Messages:
    15,287
    Location:
    Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
    Oh no ethanol is the best stuff ever...

    (don't answer the door for the next few days. It'll be the corn lobby.)
     
    #5 -   Oct 3, 2005
  6. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 4
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Messages:
    6,640
    Location:
    SF, CA
    Is there even such thing as the "corn" lobby?

    It's got to be the farm lobby or something like that, right?
     
    #6 -   Oct 3, 2005
  7. Tenchiro

    Tenchiro Attention K Mart Shoppers

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Messages:
    5,407
    Location:
    New England
    I think that because they use sugar cane instead of corn, they can get much higher yields and that allows them to achieve a positive energy balance. Otherwise I don't see how they could sell ethanol for half the price of gas.

    Although I only know what I learned on an hour long progam. :p
     
    #7 -   Oct 3, 2005
  8. DRB

    DRB unemployed bum

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2002
    Messages:
    15,287
    Location:
    Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
    Come now of course there is a corn lobby. Also an ethanol lobby. Both of which typically work for state and regional corn growers associations. And the big daddy of them all http://www.ncga.com/. The National Corn Growers Association.

    Speaking of clean air, here is another thing that gets them defensive. In winter time, ethanol blends do a good job reducing carbon monoxide emissions BUT in summertime they lead to an increase in NOx and hydrocarbon emissions plus an increased particulate emission. AND because of higher volatility the evaporation rate is higher in the summer which leads to ozone increases.....
     
    #8 -   Oct 3, 2005
  9. narlus

    narlus Eastcoast Softcore
    Staff Member

    Rep/Likes:
    17 / 25
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2001
    Messages:
    24,658
    Location:
    behind the viewfinder
    i'm sure big players like ADM and Cargill have plenty of people on the ground in DC.
     
    #9 -   Oct 3, 2005
  10. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 4
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Messages:
    6,640
    Location:
    SF, CA
    One time (at band camp) I had lunch with a Senior Vice President at Cargill. I asked him "So Cargill... what do they do?"

    You'd think most people would find that funny, seeing as it was a genuine question at the time (I was young. As opposed to now, when I'm still young). He didn't.
     
  11. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

    Rep/Likes:
    161 / 1,571
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2003
    Messages:
    21,824
    Location:
    In my pants
    Haha......that rules.

    I interviewed with cargill out of college. I thought "Agriculture, what could be evil about that?" My undergrad degree is in biochemistry. Stupid kid.
     
  12. Damn True

    Damn True Monkey Pimp

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 3
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Messages:
    4,016
    Location:
    Between a rock and a hard place.
    That is very interesting. Just read a similar argument against H2 powered vehicles (in current technology of course) and the battery issue in hybrids.

    Im sure the large corporate farming companies would love to have a piece of the "oil pie".
     
  13. Tenchiro

    Tenchiro Attention K Mart Shoppers

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Messages:
    5,407
    Location:
    New England
    There is one problem I can think of with the Hydrogen powered vehicles. If/when they become as common, the roads wil bea nightmare for winter driving.

    Combine all the water vapor they will emit, with a nice cold crisp winter day, and add in a busy freeway during commute time. I could see this easily becoming a skating rink.
     
  14. Damn True

    Damn True Monkey Pimp

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 3
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Messages:
    4,016
    Location:
    Between a rock and a hard place.

    LOL, hadn't thought of that. But it would make for a handy ice maker for those winter-time tailgate parties at Lambeau Field.

    ....and what of the water vapor emmisions. Isn't the large increase in water vapor also blamed in part for Global Warming?

    IMO in the short term our best bet lies in "fast-diesel" technology. Like the stuff Gale Banks is working on and in the long term some form of compact diesel-electric system. I honestly don't think we will see a valid replacement for IC in our lifetimes.
     
  15. Tenchiro

    Tenchiro Attention K Mart Shoppers

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Messages:
    5,407
    Location:
    New England
    If I had to choose between water vapor and the current polutants, I would certainly choose the former.

    I think Hybrid & Flex engines are certainly the best available options now, and will probably remain so into at least the near future.

    Although, I do worry what what a decreased demand on gasoline will do to our taxes, when the government tries to make up for that lost revenue in the forms of a per mile driven sort of tax.
     
  16. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 4
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,890
    Location:
    Hypernormality
    WooHoo! Good things are afoot...

    http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2005/10/04/suv_sales_decline_dents_us_firms/

     
  17. Damn True

    Damn True Monkey Pimp

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 3
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Messages:
    4,016
    Location:
    Between a rock and a hard place.
    Totally off topic, but something has occured to me over the last couple of weeks.......

    Ya ever notice that when there is a car accident involving a honda civic and a toyota camry the radio traffic dude never says: "A pileup on the 405 involving a civic and a camry is slowing down northbound traffic......" But it seems that they never fail to mention an accident involving an SUV?

    Just seems odd....ya know.....since the media dosen't have an agenda and all......
     
  18. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

    Rep/Likes:
    3 / 0
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2001
    Messages:
    5,672
    Location:
    Feeling the lag
    Do they say car perhaps? And do they mention the make and model of the SUV?

    If they always mention the 'type' of vehicle then you are simply paranoid.
     
  19. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 4
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,890
    Location:
    Hypernormality
    It's easier to spot an SUV from a traffic 'copter than a small genric looking salon. Plus you can probably clean up a little salon car wreck faster then a SUV wreck. At a given speed so much more energy would be expended.

    That or you're right and it's a liberal media conspiricy to make you think SUVs are less safe. (Which they are...) :eviltongu
     
  20. Archslater

    Archslater Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2003
    Messages:
    154
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Here in Indianapolis, I've never noticed that they even give the type of vehicle but if they do, perhaps SUV's cause more frequent, larger accidents because of sloppier handling, higher ground clearance, larger mass, and over aggressive driving techniques...... I'm sure physics has nothing to do with it, just media bias.
     
  21. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

    Rep/Likes:
    161 / 1,571
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2003
    Messages:
    21,824
    Location:
    In my pants
    I hear the word "sedan" used as well. Plus the highly politically charged words "car" and "vehicle".

    Persecution complex?

    The first time I hear "So and so with the traffic report here, let's see what the big a$$ suv's are fvcking up today" then I'll give you some credibility.

    Those nasty clear channel employed liberals.

    It would be funny to hear someone in a fuel efficient helicopter trying to lambast suv's for gas efficiency however.
     
  22. MikeD

    MikeD Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists

    Rep/Likes:
    13 / 62
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2001
    Messages:
    10,060
    Location:
    chez moi
    Doesn't that bell curve model presume that we have inherent knowledge of what our supply actually IS? I can see the curve being mushed (to use a technical scientific term) significantly to the right, and I'm guessing there won't be the economic impetus to look for and *implement* practical alternatives until the true scarcity of fuel beings to show itself.
     
  23. W4S

    W4S Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    3 / 23
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,284
    Location:
    Back in Hell A, b1thces

    That's identified in the story, that nobody really knows how much oil is left. An analogy is that it's like a blind man trying to find the size of an elephant by feeling his trunk, we can't see what's in the ground.

    But, NO major finds have been made since the 60's, and not without significant effort to do so. The peak of discovery happened in the 60's, which could correlate to total oil left to pump. Also, there comes a point where the cost of extracting the oil is greater than the cost of the oil itself, which is obviously unsustainable. Oil is a finite resource, and we have built a civilization that is completely dependant on this non-renewable energy source. Most optimistic evidence shows peak oil within 25 years, with curtail very shortly afterwards.

    I'll PM you more.