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End to petroleum based society?

Pretty spot on.
However, the next big thing looks to be tar sands. Canada is already extracting heavy oil from tar sands and the technique is spreading.
I'm a big advocate of bio-diesel but its gonna be interesting to see what happens as China and India modernize and they need lots of oil too.
Doesn't look good for the average joe.
FYI: good ,clean plant based bio-diesel can be made at home for under a dollar!
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
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I think that aside from bio-diesel, Brazil has the right idea with their Ethanol production. Every single gas station there has it (usually at half the price of gasoline), and Chevrolet has opened a new plant that makes cars specifically with Ethanol in mind as the primary fuel source.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
Tenchiro said:
I think that aside from bio-diesel, Brazil has the right idea with their Ethanol production. Every single gas station there has it (usually at half the price of gasoline), and Chevrolet has opened a new plant that makes cars specifically with Ethanol in mind as the primary fuel source.
Actually this is an interesting one, I'm just finding out more about. I've heard lots of people advocate it:
"it's cleaner"
"it's US grown"
"it shortens to carbon cycle."
Then, someone pretty reputable went on a tirade about it. According to them (again, I source I tend to trust) ethanol refining takes more energy (off the power grid) than it produces in a combustion engine. He said that the ethanol content required in gasoline (in certain states... maybe federally now too), was basically pushed through by the corn lobby and isn't saving us a lick of fossil fuel, which we burn to refine the ethanol. They're doing a tremendous job of marketing.

That being said, an old professor of mine currently has a bio-tech start-up that has created a yeast that refines ethanol from biomass. No external energy required, other than keeping them warm. I have no idea how far from commercialization they are....
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
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Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
ohio said:
Actually this is an interesting one, I'm just finding out more about. I've heard lots of people advocate it:
"it's cleaner"
"it's US grown"
"it shortens to carbon cycle."
Then, someone pretty reputable went on a tirade about it. According to them (again, I source I tend to trust) ethanol refining takes more energy (off the power grid) than it produces in a combustion engine. He said that the ethanol content required in gasoline (in certain states... maybe federally now too), was basically pushed through by the corn lobby and isn't saving us a lick of fossil fuel, which we burn to refine the ethanol. They're doing a tremendous job of marketing.

That being said, an old professor of mine currently has a bio-tech start-up that has created a yeast that refines ethanol from biomass. No external energy required, other than keeping them warm. I have no idea how far from commercialization they are....
Oh no ethanol is the best stuff ever...

(don't answer the door for the next few days. It'll be the corn lobby.)
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
DRB said:
Oh no ethanol is the best stuff ever...

(don't answer the door for the next few days. It'll be the corn lobby.)
Is there even such thing as the "corn" lobby?

It's got to be the farm lobby or something like that, right?
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
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ohio said:
Actually this is an interesting one, I'm just finding out more about. I've heard lots of people advocate it:
"it's cleaner"
"it's US grown"
"it shortens to carbon cycle."
Then, someone pretty reputable went on a tirade about it. According to them (again, I source I tend to trust) ethanol refining takes more energy (off the power grid) than it produces in a combustion engine. He said that the ethanol content required in gasoline (in certain states... maybe federally now too), was basically pushed through by the corn lobby and isn't saving us a lick of fossil fuel, which we burn to refine the ethanol. They're doing a tremendous job of marketing.

That being said, an old professor of mine currently has a bio-tech start-up that has created a yeast that refines ethanol from biomass. No external energy required, other than keeping them warm. I have no idea how far from commercialization they are....
I think that because they use sugar cane instead of corn, they can get much higher yields and that allows them to achieve a positive energy balance. Otherwise I don't see how they could sell ethanol for half the price of gas.

Although I only know what I learned on an hour long progam. :p
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,243
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
ohio said:
Is there even such thing as the "corn" lobby?

It's got to be the farm lobby or something like that, right?
Come now of course there is a corn lobby. Also an ethanol lobby. Both of which typically work for state and regional corn growers associations. And the big daddy of them all http://www.ncga.com/. The National Corn Growers Association.

Speaking of clean air, here is another thing that gets them defensive. In winter time, ethanol blends do a good job reducing carbon monoxide emissions BUT in summertime they lead to an increase in NOx and hydrocarbon emissions plus an increased particulate emission. AND because of higher volatility the evaporation rate is higher in the summer which leads to ozone increases.....
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
narlus said:
One time (at band camp) I had lunch with a Senior Vice President at Cargill. I asked him "So Cargill... what do they do?"

You'd think most people would find that funny, seeing as it was a genuine question at the time (I was young. As opposed to now, when I'm still young). He didn't.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
23,653
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ohio said:
One time (at band camp) I had lunch with a Senior Vice President at Cargill. I asked him "So Cargill... what do they do?"

You'd think most people would find that funny, seeing as it was a genuine question at the time (I was young. As opposed to now, when I'm still young). He didn't.
Haha......that rules.

I interviewed with cargill out of college. I thought "Agriculture, what could be evil about that?" My undergrad degree is in biochemistry. Stupid kid.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,016
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
ohio said:
Actually this is an interesting one, I'm just finding out more about. I've heard lots of people advocate it:
"it's cleaner"
"it's US grown"
"it shortens to carbon cycle."
Then, someone pretty reputable went on a tirade about it. According to them (again, I source I tend to trust) ethanol refining takes more energy (off the power grid) than it produces in a combustion engine. He said that the ethanol content required in gasoline (in certain states... maybe federally now too), was basically pushed through by the corn lobby and isn't saving us a lick of fossil fuel, which we burn to refine the ethanol. They're doing a tremendous job of marketing.

That being said, an old professor of mine currently has a bio-tech start-up that has created a yeast that refines ethanol from biomass. No external energy required, other than keeping them warm. I have no idea how far from commercialization they are....
That is very interesting. Just read a similar argument against H2 powered vehicles (in current technology of course) and the battery issue in hybrids.

Im sure the large corporate farming companies would love to have a piece of the "oil pie".
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
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Damn True said:
That is very interesting. Just read a similar argument against H2 powered vehicles (in current technology of course) and the battery issue in hybrids.

Im sure the large corporate farming companies would love to have a piece of the "oil pie".
There is one problem I can think of with the Hydrogen powered vehicles. If/when they become as common, the roads wil bea nightmare for winter driving.

Combine all the water vapor they will emit, with a nice cold crisp winter day, and add in a busy freeway during commute time. I could see this easily becoming a skating rink.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,016
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Between a rock and a hard place.
Tenchiro said:
There is one problem I can think of with the Hydrogen powered vehicles. If/when they become as common, the roads wil bea nightmare for winter driving.

Combine all the water vapor they will emit, with a nice cold crisp winter day, and add in a busy freeway during commute time. I could see this easily becoming a skating rink.

LOL, hadn't thought of that. But it would make for a handy ice maker for those winter-time tailgate parties at Lambeau Field.

....and what of the water vapor emmisions. Isn't the large increase in water vapor also blamed in part for Global Warming?

IMO in the short term our best bet lies in "fast-diesel" technology. Like the stuff Gale Banks is working on and in the long term some form of compact diesel-electric system. I honestly don't think we will see a valid replacement for IC in our lifetimes.
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
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Damn True said:
....and what of the water vapor emmisions. Isn't the large increase in water vapor also blamed in part for Global Warming?
If I had to choose between water vapor and the current polutants, I would certainly choose the former.

IMO in the short term our best bet lies in "fast-diesel" technology. Like the stuff Gale Banks is working on and in the long term some form of compact diesel-electric system. I honestly don't think we will see a valid replacement for IC in our lifetimes.
I think Hybrid & Flex engines are certainly the best available options now, and will probably remain so into at least the near future.

Although, I do worry what what a decreased demand on gasoline will do to our taxes, when the government tries to make up for that lost revenue in the forms of a per mile driven sort of tax.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,900
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WooHoo! Good things are afoot...

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2005/10/04/suv_sales_decline_dents_us_firms/

Several automakers yesterday reported strong car sales, but SUVs took a hit as gas prices skyrocketed following Hurricane Katrina. Sales of the GMC Envoy and Chevrolet Tahoe fell more than 50 percent, compared to last September's. The Cadillac Escalade, Mazda Tribute, Ford Explorer, Ford Expedition, Toyota Sequoia, and Nissan Armada all saw sales fall 18 percent or more. Dodge Durango sales were down 11 percent.

General Motors Corp. sales were down 24 percent overall. Its SUV and truck sales fell 30 percent; its car sales dropped 14 percent. GM's overall sales were flat for the first nine months of the year.

Ford Motor Co. also took a hit, with sales down nearly 20 percent in September. Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury car sales rose 6 percent, but sales of trucks and SUVs fell nearly 28 percent. The company's overall sales were also flat for the first nine months of the year.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,016
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Totally off topic, but something has occured to me over the last couple of weeks.......

Ya ever notice that when there is a car accident involving a honda civic and a toyota camry the radio traffic dude never says: "A pileup on the 405 involving a civic and a camry is slowing down northbound traffic......" But it seems that they never fail to mention an accident involving an SUV?

Just seems odd....ya know.....since the media dosen't have an agenda and all......
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,672
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Damn True said:
Totally off topic, but something has occured to me over the last couple of weeks.......

Ya ever notice that when there is a car accident involving a honda civic and a toyota camry the radio traffic dude never says: "A pileup on the 405 involving a civic and a camry is slowing down northbound traffic......" But it seems that they never fail to mention an accident involving an SUV?

Just seems odd....ya know.....since the media dosen't have an agenda and all......
Do they say car perhaps? And do they mention the make and model of the SUV?

If they always mention the 'type' of vehicle then you are simply paranoid.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,900
5
Hypernormality
Damn True said:
Totally off topic, but something has occured to me over the last couple of weeks.......

Ya ever notice that when there is a car accident involving a honda civic and a toyota camry the radio traffic dude never says: "A pileup on the 405 involving a civic and a camry is slowing down northbound traffic......" But it seems that they never fail to mention an accident involving an SUV?

Just seems odd....ya know.....since the media dosen't have an agenda and all......
It's easier to spot an SUV from a traffic 'copter than a small genric looking salon. Plus you can probably clean up a little salon car wreck faster then a SUV wreck. At a given speed so much more energy would be expended.

That or you're right and it's a liberal media conspiricy to make you think SUVs are less safe. (Which they are...) :eviltongu
 

Archslater

Monkey
Mar 6, 2003
154
0
Indianapolis
Damn True said:
Totally off topic, but something has occured to me over the last couple of weeks.......

Ya ever notice that when there is a car accident involving a honda civic and a toyota camry the radio traffic dude never says: "A pileup on the 405 involving a civic and a camry is slowing down northbound traffic......" But it seems that they never fail to mention an accident involving an SUV?

Just seems odd....ya know.....since the media dosen't have an agenda and all......
Here in Indianapolis, I've never noticed that they even give the type of vehicle but if they do, perhaps SUV's cause more frequent, larger accidents because of sloppier handling, higher ground clearance, larger mass, and over aggressive driving techniques...... I'm sure physics has nothing to do with it, just media bias.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
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Damn True said:
But it seems that they never fail to mention an accident involving an SUV?

Just seems odd....ya know.....since the media dosen't have an agenda and all......
I hear the word "sedan" used as well. Plus the highly politically charged words "car" and "vehicle".

Persecution complex?

The first time I hear "So and so with the traffic report here, let's see what the big a$$ suv's are fvcking up today" then I'll give you some credibility.

Those nasty clear channel employed liberals.

It would be funny to hear someone in a fuel efficient helicopter trying to lambast suv's for gas efficiency however.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,404
452
chez moi
Doesn't that bell curve model presume that we have inherent knowledge of what our supply actually IS? I can see the curve being mushed (to use a technical scientific term) significantly to the right, and I'm guessing there won't be the economic impetus to look for and *implement* practical alternatives until the true scarcity of fuel beings to show itself.
 

W4S

Turbo Monkey
Mar 2, 2004
1,284
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Back in Hell A, b1thces
MikeD said:
Doesn't that bell curve model presume that we have inherent knowledge of what our supply actually IS? I can see the curve being mushed (to use a technical scientific term) significantly to the right, and I'm guessing there won't be the economic impetus to look for and *implement* practical alternatives until the true scarcity of fuel beings to show itself.

That's identified in the story, that nobody really knows how much oil is left. An analogy is that it's like a blind man trying to find the size of an elephant by feeling his trunk, we can't see what's in the ground.

But, NO major finds have been made since the 60's, and not without significant effort to do so. The peak of discovery happened in the 60's, which could correlate to total oil left to pump. Also, there comes a point where the cost of extracting the oil is greater than the cost of the oil itself, which is obviously unsustainable. Oil is a finite resource, and we have built a civilization that is completely dependant on this non-renewable energy source. Most optimistic evidence shows peak oil within 25 years, with curtail very shortly afterwards.

I'll PM you more.