Is it just me, or is there a cheap shot on the news page of Endless bikes...
anyone else notice/care?
p6
anyone else notice/care?
p6
endless website update...
- Thread starter prophet6
- Start date
Eh, not really suprised.
It's about as lame and childish as you can get, but hey, from the quality of posts that I've seen around here, I wouldn't expect much else from Marshall.
I'm sure the Lifetime is a nice frame, but the maturity of the company owner leaves a lot to be desired. It's just sour grapes - the only thing you can do with fools is ignore them...
It's about as lame and childish as you can get, but hey, from the quality of posts that I've seen around here, I wouldn't expect much else from Marshall.
I'm sure the Lifetime is a nice frame, but the maturity of the company owner leaves a lot to be desired. It's just sour grapes - the only thing you can do with fools is ignore them...
I've emailed them twice about the "short cut" frame. No replies... I've got a Lifetime and it has served me well. I don't know what's happened to the company though...kinda weird.
Has anyone ever seen this "groundbreaking" frame? I have the so called "Tawainesse crap" sitting right next to me and i think it's the nicest piece of crap i have ever seen!
I got in an Endless for a review, and I have to admit they are beautiful frames. I don't really see eye to eye with Marshall on anything, but his frames are awesome.
Can i assume the cheap shot is aimed at the DOC?
Can i assume the cheap shot is aimed at the DOC?
Jeff, look under the "news" link.dropmachine.com said:
for those who are interested, I believe this is the quote in question "9-Feb-05 The Short-Cut simght simply be too nice of a bike for its intended purpose. While we areconfident that The Short-Cut is the most potent street mountain bike ever with its innovative geometry and stout tubeset, we just can't risk releasing this groundbreaking frame design at $600 so long as our competitors offer cheap Tawainesse crap selling for 25% less."
I don't get what there is to "risk"...if the Short-Cut is so good, people will gladly buy it. The cheap shot towards Evil, totally uncalled for.
Clem
I have owned a couple of frames Brew has produced, hell, I even worked for a company that had frames made by them. I also have a pretty good understanding of where/how the DOC frame is being manufactured and from having ridden one and built up a prototype (DOC) for a friend I can say that in general terms of manufacturing quality the DOC is greatly superior.
That "Taiwanese crap" comment is comlpetely uncalled for, regardless. A total lack of professionalism.
That "Taiwanese crap" comment is comlpetely uncalled for, regardless. A total lack of professionalism.
well, first off i think that having brew make your frames is a little over the top. Its not like they are being forced to use brew. If the frame is so superior than it shouldnt matter where it is produced, also as far as im concerned a machine can weld a hell of lot more concistent than a person anyway.
i say that despite the fact that my frame is hand built. i personally think that paying 600 dollars for a hardtail is absurd to begin with.
i say that despite the fact that my frame is hand built. i personally think that paying 600 dollars for a hardtail is absurd to begin with.
while we're on the subject of endless and bikes and asheville (meaning i'm totally derailling this thread 
), has there been any final word on the Asheville Street comp this year? Is it definitely cancelled?
), has there been any final word on the Asheville Street comp this year? Is it definitely cancelled?
I don't know guys... I can name about 15 other urban/DJ hardtails that are made in Taiwan other than the Evils. So, maybe we should give Endless the benefit of the doubt. At least they're trying to keep it homegrown.
-r
-r
biggins said:
NOrmally i would agree, except that marshall has a superiority complex where he thinks anything he produces is light years ahead of anything e13/evil produces.rpet said:
The price on the DOC is $450.rpet said:
He specifically stated, 25% under $600, which is exactly $450, and he's always had some nasty things to say about Evil and DW in particular. How many other street, Taiwan made hardtail frames are selling for exactly $450? Not that there aren't others, but that relatively small number combined with his dislike of Evil's frames makes for a pretty obvious dig.
Regardless of whether or not you like Evil or DW, that kind of cheap shots are nothing short of pathetic. Yeah, it sure does suck that someone is bringing an affordable, high quality street hardtail to the market.
Well - I'm seeing Planet X, Woodman and .243 frames for right about $450...
But, I wasn't aware of any history of trash talking, which I totally agree is stupid.
-rob
But, I wasn't aware of any history of trash talking, which I totally agree is stupid.
-rob
When Marshall has a history of working for Draper, he can brag about superior products and experience and knowledge.binary visions said:
no, it's cool to gang-bash a guy who isn't here to defend himself. -edit- by the way, when i read it, i kinda chuckled.rpet said:
i like Endless. i like the Lifetime. i wish like hell it would accept a 26" rear tire. the posts between Marshall and Dave are always entertaining. 2 completely different ends of the frame building spectrum, and some of their posts have been the best i've read.
i remember arguing back when Evil first announced a steel hardtail that it was a direct shot at Endless. nobody sided with me, though.
reminds me...i need to order a cog.
i have always liked the endless frame better than the evil frames. I like the fact that their office was/is located in the basement of my favorite bike shop in the town where i live. I have had lots of good talks with both marshall and adam over beers at a bar and on street rides. But there is no way in hell i'm spending 600-700 dollars on a hardtail frame. ever.
Almost as cool as it is to take unfounded cheap shots behind someone's back. By the way, Marshall is still a member of this board and actually made a post not too long ago.the Inbred said:
There's a reason for that.. It's because that logic doesn't even make any sense. How many frames a year does Endless produce? 50? Less? That's not even worthy of taking a shot at.
You think Nabisco releases a new cookie to "take a shot at" some local baker in Georgia? Or Budweiser releases a new type of beer to compete with a microbrewery in Maine. Even if Evil sells only three or four hundred of their steel frames, thats a far higher sales number that they're looking to meet and the sales of the Endless frames aren't even putting a dent in it.
Nice avatar Biggs...Time for an update, eh?
Both Endless and Evil produce incredible frames, amazing quality and ride. I personally could care less what the owners thought of each other. Let the frames do the talking...That said, anyone know whats up with the Soverign? I'm guessing the DOC has somewhat taken it's place?
Both Endless and Evil produce incredible frames, amazing quality and ride. I personally could care less what the owners thought of each other. Let the frames do the talking...That said, anyone know whats up with the Soverign? I'm guessing the DOC has somewhat taken it's place?
almost as cool as making broad assumptionsbinary visions said:Almost as cool as it is to take unfounded cheap shots behind someone's back. By the way, Marshall is still a member of this board and actually made a post not too long ago.
Evil had a do-it-all aluminum hardtail. there was a demand for steel hardtails. Endless was the only high-end steel frame that was making any noise 2yrs ago. it would have be real easy to corner the high-end steel frame niche with a sub-$500 frame. but that's just my opinion. doesn't really matter now, with 4 or 5 new companies.
Miss Black put him on the curb...HRDTLBRO said:
The Sovereign is coming, it is well underway with production right now.HRDTLBRO said:
Im happy to be riding a a lifetime. Infact, its by far the best frame ive ridden for a long amount of time. Evil and Endless are at two different ends of the spectrum, I would say evil is trying to change the marketplace with new innovative designs, while endless is being the small time producers of quality goods (nobody can say that their frames are not quality).
Marshall seems like a cool guy. Once I thought I had a problem with my frame (got a BB with an axle in sideways, weird stuff.. no problem with the frame). Anyway, i sent him an email and he offered to take the next plane out of ashville if there was actually a problem. I cant say that ive ever seen/heard of that before.
Marshall seems like a cool guy. Once I thought I had a problem with my frame (got a BB with an axle in sideways, weird stuff.. no problem with the frame). Anyway, i sent him an email and he offered to take the next plane out of ashville if there was actually a problem. I cant say that ive ever seen/heard of that before.
So, not mentioning the fact that there were other steel hardtails available at the time, do you think these other new companies on the scene were also, "taking shots" at Endless?the Inbred said:
i wouldn't say endless was the only high-end steel frame 2 years ago.the Inbred said:
maybe it was one of a few, but not the only.
2 years ago there was at least brooklyn with their park bike
and balfa with their minuteman.
i think.
I ride a Lifetime and take pride in the fact that is was made in the usa. I think it is worth the extra money for something I will be using for the next several years.
My reason for posting this had nothing to do with my like or dislike of the frames.
The bike world is small, and I see no need for hateful comments like this. I was just wondering if I had read it correctly, and by the reponses I have.
For what it's worth, the Lifetime was by no means a stand alone bike two years ago- Brooklyn, Cortina, Balfa and others were all producing aggressive steel frames. Further, the 24" rear wheel had been done before by Brooklyn, Fat City, Ibis, and I'm sure others.
Again, I'm not saying I like or dislike the frames. I'm only stating facts related to a timeline.
p6
The bike world is small, and I see no need for hateful comments like this. I was just wondering if I had read it correctly, and by the reponses I have.
For what it's worth, the Lifetime was by no means a stand alone bike two years ago- Brooklyn, Cortina, Balfa and others were all producing aggressive steel frames. Further, the 24" rear wheel had been done before by Brooklyn, Fat City, Ibis, and I'm sure others.
Again, I'm not saying I like or dislike the frames. I'm only stating facts related to a timeline.
p6
Most of the frames made in taiwan now surpass the build quality of stuff made in the USA. If you are doing it to support the US economy, that is one thing, but don't delude yourself as to it's quality.smedford said:
I've met Marshall. He's a character, maybe even a little bit of a crazy hippie. He's my age, which I feel qualifies him to make a few mistakes and say some things he maybe shouldn't have. Since he has a bike company, he's held to a higher standard than I am. I'd probably make a few misteps, too, if I was in his Marxist shoes. The difference is that he had balls (some would say bad judgement) to actually try to live the dream and start his own bike company. I bet it's pretty hard for the Endless guys to keep things moving forward, as I believe both of them have other jobs. I'd probably feel a little frustrated and perhaps maybe even jealous of Evil's relative success if I were in his position. I don't think the Evil guys are losing much sleep over this "pot shot".
*Disclaimer* I think Evil's are pretty awesome, and the attention to detail is amazing, so they get a pass from the following comparison:
This argument/discussion could be compared to one buying a new guitar: on one hand, you have your typical Fender. Plays nice, good quality, pretty damn sweet, but mass produced. On the other hand, you could have a local luthier build you one of his "stock" guitars. Plays nice, excellent quality, pretty damn sweet, and you shook the hand of the dude that built it for you. Which guitar is better? Totally subjective, but there is the idea of the locally hand-built guitar having a little more "soul" and your money sort of "stays in the family" with the local luthier. Some people believe this to be important, but you can ultimately make your own decision. Silly as it may sound, I think I'd buy an Endless if I moved to NC
This argument/discussion could be compared to one buying a new guitar: on one hand, you have your typical Fender. Plays nice, good quality, pretty damn sweet, but mass produced. On the other hand, you could have a local luthier build you one of his "stock" guitars. Plays nice, excellent quality, pretty damn sweet, and you shook the hand of the dude that built it for you. Which guitar is better? Totally subjective, but there is the idea of the locally hand-built guitar having a little more "soul" and your money sort of "stays in the family" with the local luthier. Some people believe this to be important, but you can ultimately make your own decision. Silly as it may sound, I think I'd buy an Endless if I moved to NC
Yeah, it is a local economy decision. I know about the quality of foreign products. I also have a Norco and owned a snipes. Just trying to support the little guys when I can.Transcend said:
Yup. I'd ride a DOC even if I didn't live in Boston. I may end up getting one if I can scrape up the scratch. If I moved somewhere that had some local small builders, I would seriously consider riding something from them. Tryin' to keep it in the family, ya know? That's just me, I don't expect anyone else to do the same. All other factors aside, I think Evil's are awesome. Being a mechanical engineer, I would say Dave Weagle is practically a rock star in my world. He's been in the game a lot longer than Marshall, though.Toshi said:
gonna try and keep this as simple and to the point as possible,
I owned a Endless frame for a short period of time, there are a few reasons behind it; but to sum them up, the frame was not the quality I expected, the ride quality was not what I expected either, and neither was the customer service.... overall very unhappy with the whole experience
I considered the fellas at Endless my friends prior to this experience...
I have to say that I loved my cheap taiwan piece of crap .243 to pieces, those bicycles ride so nice!
I'd love to try a cheap piece of crap taiwan D.O.C.
I owned a Endless frame for a short period of time, there are a few reasons behind it; but to sum them up, the frame was not the quality I expected, the ride quality was not what I expected either, and neither was the customer service.... overall very unhappy with the whole experience
I considered the fellas at Endless my friends prior to this experience...
I have to say that I loved my cheap taiwan piece of crap .243 to pieces, those bicycles ride so nice!
I'd love to try a cheap piece of crap taiwan D.O.C.
Evil isn't a big company like specialized where ive never met, spoken too, or even seen post on the internet the guy who design the P series bikes, bighits, demos, etc. Evil is a small company thats getting bigger but staying true to its roots. No need to take pop shots just because your angry that you make 10 frames a year and say you dont do it for the money, yet you get angry when you might not make as much money.
No wonder Marshall doesn't post here often any more.
I think he was one of the coolest people on the board, honestly.
I think he was one of the coolest people on the board, honestly.