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Enduro forks - digging through fecal matter

lobsterCT

Monkey
Jun 23, 2015
278
414
I rode the diamond for 3 seasons I believe. Never did a bit of maintenance on it and its still going strong. My wife has one on her 4th and still going strong. I have a bunch of parts for rebuilds, and I'll rebuild mine and put it on her bike, then rebuild hers. (i'm on a 36 now) I feel like I can keep her going on the fork a long time this way. She is super petite, and I'm a Clyde, and I could get the fork set up well for both of us. That really impressed me. I hate the emerald, but I think the diamond is a great fork.

Feel free to hijack away. Actually stoked at the information contained in this thread.

For me the thread has pretty much run it’s course as I am mostly decided on a Fox 36 factory rc2 170mm boost fork. I loved the 2012 36 I had before the xfusion. Iam also considering a DVO diamond in 160mm, but no one seemed to mention it, so they must suck?

I am curious if it is as simple as old forks to adjust travel on the new 36 forks ? I may simple go straight to 160mm and I’ll I will need is a couple of spacers, eh?
 
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Sugar_brad

Monkey
Jun 20, 2009
328
6
as much as i want to be a cane creek fanboy, being in nc, i have to say that they let me down with a rebuild of my db coil, which worked great after they fully rebuilt it, for about four rides, and then started clunking. despite repeated emails i never heard back from them about returning it to be fixed. hrmf.
Give them a call. There was an issue with them not receiving emails for some time. It's a common misconception that they were intentionally not returning emails, which is not true. Ask for Colin or Eric.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,267
9,905
AK
Give them a call. There was an issue with them not receiving emails for some time. It's a common misconception that they were intentionally not returning emails, which is not true. Ask for Colin or Eric.
I hate it when my shock is not receiving emails.
 

lobsterCT

Monkey
Jun 23, 2015
278
414
just got email from Push - 160 and 170 spring kits for fox 36 and RS available late april early may. New gray spring will work with riders up to 255 (previous limit of 235)

yippie!
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,922
5,827
UK
I just saw the price



Think I'll be dealing with those small bumps and slighlty moar progressive smoothing of the big ones just fine on my own.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,267
9,905
AK
I rode the diamond, drank the lime-aid, moved on. Was no better than my pike RC and was worse in some ways.
 

Muddy

ancient crusty bog dude
Jul 7, 2013
2,032
908
Free Soda Refills at Fuddruckers
FWIW - If dollar-for-dollar results are what makes this decision be made, find the Yari / Lyrik chassis new or used you can fit its dimensions upon, fill the obligatory information on Avalanche's web site and expect to be impressed. I have had 2 full seasons on a Totem w/ Midvalve (dw*link on the rear) and there's been no comparison to it.
My weighing 190lbs places me at the support-side of suspension under load. Having sorted out the ride as best I could and then committing to Craig in CT for that last something... worth it.

Choices are for you to make, some people need to have what everyone else is buying, Other people can manage with having to put in some extra effort and/or an investment of time in order to get results.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,649
4,983
Australia
One of the guys racing last week had a Lyrik or Pike with that FAST damper fitted. Felt really nice in the comprehensive carpark push dyno test. Has anyone here run one?
 

Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
520
194
FWIW - If dollar-for-dollar results are what makes this decision be made, find the Yari / Lyrik chassis new or used you can fit its dimensions upon, fill the obligatory information on Avalanche's web site and expect to be impressed. I have had 2 full seasons on a Totem w/ Midvalve (dw*link on the rear) and there's been no comparison to it.
My weighing 190lbs places me at the support-side of suspension under load. Having sorted out the ride as best I could and then committing to Craig in CT for that last something... worth it.

Choices are for you to make, some people need to have what everyone else is buying, Other people can manage with having to put in some extra effort and/or an investment of time in order to get results.
I bought a Yari for 500.00 then got an Avy cart. With the HSB. Told Craig I like a decent amount of LSC but want it to blow off on rocky/rooty high speed hits. I got wat i asked for and spent less.
 

DaveW

Space Monkey
Jul 2, 2001
11,343
2,884
The bunker at parliament
I rode the diamond, drank the lime-aid, moved on. Was no better than my pike RC and was worse in some ways.
The DVO's do take a lot more time and fiddling with setting to get just right compared to the RS, but the people that have them all seem to love them.
And if the guy at my shop called Rasta can't break them, they be pretty solid as that meatbomb breaks EVERYTHING!
The original poster sounds like his budget won't stretch to those so I'd recommend looking at Lyriks.... Or a Yari and later on swapping the cartridge out for something nicer.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,959
1,318
SWE
One of the guys racing last week had a Lyrik or Pike with that FAST damper fitted. Felt really nice in the comprehensive carpark push dyno test. Has anyone here run one?
I have their simple compression block om my Yaris (https://www.mrc-trading.de/Fahrwerk/Tuning/FAST-compression-kit-Daempfungseinheit-fuer-RockShox-Yari.html with the purple knob) which is the same as the Splug from Novyparts (https://www.novyparts.com/optimisation-novyparts-suspensions-vtt/rock-shox-fourches/splug.html all black nowadays). It replaces the shitty moco damper with a proper a needle and valved shims piston, the rebound is not changed. This and a Luftkappe or equivalent air kit from Novyparts lifted my Yari to the best fork I ever had, better than the original Pike, better than the 36 Float (mine had a sticky air piston), better than my Van 36 RC2 with metal shaving in the damper, better than my old Marzo 66SL. And don't get me wrong, the Fox forks can be great: I really like my non inverted Float 36 RC2 after modification of the shim stack and improvement of the negative spring, it is just that the 2 latest exemplar I got from Fox where faulty... the subject as already been beaten to death here http://ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threads/2015-fox-36-harsh.276499/
Something else about the Yari with the "simple" compression block is that you don't have a bladder that might burst, there is a lot of oil which stay cool longer and also doesn't need to be serviced that often. The downside is that the volume of both stanchions is fully occupied which makes the air inside the lower leg to act as a quite progressive air spring, the longer the stroke, the more progressive the spring.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,917
1,211
The problem with moco-style semi-bath dampers (as well as regular open-bath dampers) is that the oil splashes around while riding and aerates itself, and you end up with reduced and inconsistent damping at whichever piston is near the upper level of oil - since the bubbles/foam rise. Whether the rider notices it or not is subjective, but it correlates directly with whichever piston sits physically highest in the bath - so on moco etc, it's reflected in early-stroke compression consistency, and on many open bath forks (eg. Marzocchi) it's obvious in rebound as the fork approaches topout.

I think toodles was asking primarily about the charger-upgrade damper though, which keeps the bladder (desirable in my book - eliminates above issue entirely) and looks like it has potential to me. On the other hand, buying a Lyrik then a damper upgrade (or two with air piston!) is getting pretty expensive - and RS is going to release an LSC/HSC damper for it themselves soon anyway (along with "debonair" air spring). If I were going the RS route, I'd wait for the next version of the Lyrik.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,922
5,827
UK
some people need to have what everyone else is buying, Other people can manage with having to put in some extra effort and/or an investment of time in order to get results.
Some just set sag. turn everything except rebound to full open and ride. It's honestly fine not to have suspension dialed to the Nth degree. Possibly even liberating.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,959
1,318
SWE
Possibly even liberating
Yeah, I like the idea but I have to admit that I am a nerd and I actually quite enjoy the journey of setting up my suspensions, trying different stuff, sharing some experience with people on the other side of the earth, learning something...

@Udi you are right that the oil can get aerated with the open/semi bath configuration. It is not something that I notice while riding and the guy behind Novyparts said that he has yet to hear a customer complaining about it (He is that kind of no BS guy so that I don't think He is protecting his product) He also mentioned that a rider would be more sensible to aerated oil on the rebound side than on the compression side. In his set up, the oil level is roughly 4 to 5 cm above the compression piston.


Nobody mentioned Manitou. I never tried one but the spec, adjustability and serviceability looks rather good. Further the fork is said to be stiffer than a Pike despite its 34mm stanchions. Does somebody have some experience to share?
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,583
2,012
Seattle
@Happymtb.fr: I had a Mattoc Pro for a while, and thought pretty highly of it, especially when they can be found for $500 or so. The chassis definitely is not as stiff as a 36, roughly on par with a Pike in my estimation, and the damper is a little less refined than the Fox, but it's perfectly solid. The hydraulic bottom out works quite well. Overall it's not quite up there with the 36, but it's 90% of the way there for a lot less than 90% of the price. I'd recommend it.
 

CheetaMike

Monkey
Jul 17, 2016
229
57
Whonnock BC Canada
If it didn't require a new boost front wheel I'd give the MRP Ribbon coil a try. I've been really happy with my Push coil converted 36 RC2.
What travel setting did you get , I have been considering it for my 36 on my 29er. It has a dead spot mid travel at times. Plus I love the feel of coil I miss my old CR66 .
 

twenty666

Chimp
Nov 8, 2017
55
13
I have a 2015 36 rc2 160mm 20mm lowered to 150mm and a metric hlr 180. I like both The metric has a stiffer chassis but it's not a huge difference. As far as the dampers go it's six or half a dozen. I think the 36 fits your needs perfectly considering how light they are. You'll lose a fair amount of weight, but I would be surprised if you find the damper to be any better, and you will give up some chassis rigidity. Those old vengeances are very stiff, until the syntace axle works lose! Not sure if you experience that issue but mine would back off constantly. The new metric axle design is much better. That's another thing about the metric I like more than the 36, but it's splitting hairs. I love my 36.
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,052
1,767
Northern California
What travel setting did you get , I have been considering it for my 36 on my 29er. It has a dead spot mid travel at times. Plus I love the feel of coil I miss my old CR66 .
I have both the 150 and 160 kits. I'm in between spring rates so I wound up going stiffer on the 150 setup. That brought me close to full open on both low and high speed compression so I had it revalved.
 

imbecile

Chimp
Sep 9, 2008
57
30
Bulgaria
@Happymtb.fr: I had a Mattoc Pro for a while, and thought pretty highly of it, especially when they can be found for $500 or so. The chassis definitely is not as stiff as a 36, roughly on par with a Pike in my estimation, and the damper is a little less refined than the Fox, but it's perfectly solid. The hydraulic bottom out works quite well. Overall it's not quite up there with the 36, but it's 90% of the way there for a lot less than 90% of the price. I'd recommend it.
This!
Serviceability though....the rebound and air spring rods are screwed into the lowers, which means a) clockwise=loosen, counter-clockwise=tighten, it's counter intuitive and you have to think about it every time. Left thread is the answer, but someone's gotta figure it out first.... b) you need special 8mm thin wall socket fro the air rod c) there's no room for error - if you over tighten it you either need new rod (if you round off the air rod 8mm hex) or new lowers+ new rod if you go wrong with the rebound rod...Even though I had the Mattoc for 2 years, had the tools and the knowledge and serviced it at least 10 times eventually somehow I cross-threaded the rebound rod, despite the thread being quite coarse. The allen key slipped (the allen 'interface' walls are fairly thin), so I had to destroy it as well as the thread in the lowers just to detach the rod from the lowers...ended up selling the usable parts of fork. Typical Manitou - they made a great performing fork, but something had to be totally f*ed up, so why not make it complete shit in the serviceability department?!
Currently I have an awfully cheap 2nd hand 2016 Yari with Luftkappe, so air spring is 100% sorted. I leave the shitty MoCo open, because it's totally useless, so someday I'll either get a Splug or throw some more $$ for a Charger 2. On the FUBAR part, I managed to over-tighten the rebound bolt on the Yari as well (see a pattern here?), unlike f*ing Manitou the RS rebound bolt just snapped, removed (easily!) the part left in the rod, bought a new one for 10$, job done. There's a lot to be asked in the compression damping department, but in terms of stiffness, air spring and serviceability the Yari is on another level compared to the Mattoc. Yes, there's the Luftkappe, but then again I had an IRT in the Mattoc, otherwise its air spring is just OK.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,267
9,905
AK
This!
Serviceability though....the rebound and air spring rods are screwed into the lowers, which means a) clockwise=loosen, counter-clockwise=tighten, it's counter intuitive and you have to think about it every time. Left thread is the answer, but someone's gotta figure it out first.... b) you need special 8mm thin wall socket fro the air rod c) there's no room for error - if you over tighten it you either need new rod (if you round off the air rod 8mm hex) or new lowers+ new rod if you go wrong with the rebound rod...Even though I had the Mattoc for 2 years, had the tools and the knowledge and serviced it at least 10 times eventually somehow I cross-threaded the rebound rod, despite the thread being quite coarse. The allen key slipped (the allen 'interface' walls are fairly thin), so I had to destroy it as well as the thread in the lowers just to detach the rod from the lowers...ended up selling the usable parts of fork. Typical Manitou - they made a great performing fork, but something had to be totally f*ed up, so why not make it complete shit in the serviceability department?!
Currently I have an awfully cheap 2nd hand 2016 Yari with Luftkappe, so air spring is 100% sorted. I leave the shitty MoCo open, because it's totally useless, so someday I'll either get a Splug or throw some more $$ for a Charger 2. On the FUBAR part, I managed to over-tighten the rebound bolt on the Yari as well (see a pattern here?), unlike f*ing Manitou the RS rebound bolt just snapped, removed (easily!) the part left in the rod, bought a new one for 10$, job done. There's a lot to be asked in the compression damping department, but in terms of stiffness, air spring and serviceability the Yari is on another level compared to the Mattoc. Yes, there's the Luftkappe, but then again I had an IRT in the Mattoc, otherwise its air spring is just OK.
Way way more complex than it needs to be. This why yari/lyrical+Avy. Simple and done.
 

PUSHIND

PUSH Industries (Duh)
Dec 5, 2003
221
251
Colorado
just got email from Push - 160 and 170 spring kits for fox 36 and RS available late april early may. New gray spring will work with riders up to 255 (previous limit of 235)

yippie!
Just 170mm kits. 140mm-160mm kits have been shipping since last July.
 

mrgto

Monkey
Aug 4, 2009
295
118
I just switched over to the acs3 kit for my 36 rc2 26” 20mm goodness. Initial thoughts are it is way better than the air piston that it replaced. I’ve not been able to put it through it paces yet because of a recent surgery that has had me laid up for a few months.

I will say that if you don’t charge and your on the lowerish limit of the lbs scale of the spring, one might go lower a spring rate.

I am 207lbs and have a black spring installed. It was my first ride since my surgery and I was riding like a bi*ch. It felt stiff but way better than the harsh ass air spring jackhammer. Im sure if I was riding at normal pace it would have been butter but I was very timid today.

Until I give up on my 26” Megatrail this is the fork for me. If I HAD to buy a big wheel new bike I would either try and find a used 27.5 36 with the 20mm axle and drop a acs3 in it or get a Yari and convert it for the elcheapo win.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,583
2,012
Seattle
I look forward to people having main air piston seal failures, and immediately gouging the shit out of their stanchions with the aluminum sealhead and needing a new CSU too.
 
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Sandro

Terrified of Cucumbers
Nov 12, 2006
3,227
2,539
The old world
The upgrade cartridge for the Lyrik is 349€ over here while the Fast Suspension 3-way cartridge can be had for 279€ including installation.
 

Mo(n)arch

Turbo Monkey
Dec 27, 2010
4,444
1,431
Italy/south Tyrol
The upgrade cartridge for the Lyrik is 349€ over here while the Fast Suspension 3-way cartridge can be had for 279€ including installation.
Then there's MST suspension, which has tuning kits for Charger cartridges aswell as a complete cartridge for the Yari and the Boxxer. The kits start at around 150€.
http://www.m-suspensiontech.com/

Teh germans seem to swear by their stuff.
I am tempted to try it out sooner or later.
Do @Sandro or @Flo33 experience with these tuning gadgets?
 

dcamp29

Monkey
Feb 14, 2004
589
63
Colorado
I look forward to people having main air piston seal failures, and immediately gouging the shit out of their stanchions with the aluminum sealhead and needing a new CSU too.
The aluminum part is fixed into the lower stanchion with a circlip. The slidey piston is still plastic. So no increase in gouged stanchion tubes.
 

Sandro

Terrified of Cucumbers
Nov 12, 2006
3,227
2,539
The old world
Then there's MST suspension, which has tuning kits for Charger cartridges aswell as a complete cartridge for the Yari and the Boxxer. The kits start at around 150€.
http://www.m-suspensiontech.com/

Teh germans seem to swear by their stuff.
I am tempted to try it out sooner or later.
Do @Sandro or @Flo33 experience with these tuning gadgets?
Sorry, i have absolutely no experience with MST. Is their cartridge like the AWK air spring in that is has been declared essential by the mtb-news forum?
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,583
2,012
Seattle
The aluminum part is fixed into the lower stanchion with a circlip. The slidey piston is still plastic. So no increase in gouged stanchion tubes.
Oh okay, I didn't look close enough. That sounds fine then.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
86,450
24,963
media blackout
@Happymtb.fr: I had a Mattoc Pro for a while, and thought pretty highly of it, especially when they can be found for $500 or so. The chassis definitely is not as stiff as a 36, roughly on par with a Pike in my estimation, and the damper is a little less refined than the Fox, but it's perfectly solid. The hydraulic bottom out works quite well. Overall it's not quite up there with the 36, but it's 90% of the way there for a lot less than 90% of the price. I'd recommend it.
this is now my fork, and have been extremely pleased with it. i've since added the IRT upgrade which basically creates a dual rate (positive) air spring, and as a result you're not relying as much on the hydraulic bottom out. definitely an option worth considering for a "budget" fork.
 

Mo(n)arch

Turbo Monkey
Dec 27, 2010
4,444
1,431
Italy/south Tyrol
Sorry, i have absolutely no experience with MST. Is their cartridge like the AWK air spring in that is has been declared essential by the mtb-news forum?
:busted:
Somewhat yes. People are raving about the Boxxer cartridge, which seems to be all in all better then the FAST cartridge and the Charger.
There are actually people that have ridden all 3 of them.
I am interested in their products as they are tuning shocks aswell.
There's possibly custom tuned suspension in my future and this is another option.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,917
1,211
I look forward to people having main air piston seal failures, and immediately gouging the shit out of their stanchions with the aluminum sealhead and needing a new CSU too.
It's just the stationary sealhead they changed, not the dynamic piston (from what I can see it's still delrin).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't see a problem there?

If we want to rip on RS though - it's hilarious that their original "upgrade" charger damper took the HSC adjuster away from everyone because it was better for them, and their "new upgrade" damper puts the HSC adjuster back because now that's better for them. What's even better is that it only has 5-clicks, so when they finally decide to give it proper range/granularity like Fox's HSC adjuster in the RC2 (the entire damper which they made an inferior copy of), it'll be their third opportunity to milk money from enduro plebs on the same product.

I think the Lyrik is a nice enough fork but I think it really needed to be pointed out that they could have done all this in the first place when they copied that damper.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,583
2,012
Seattle
It's just the stationary sealhead they changed, not the dynamic piston (from what I can see it's still delrin).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't see a problem there?
Yeah you're right, I didn't look close enough and thought they meant the dynamic piston. Seems fine.

IIf we want to rip on RS though - it's hilarious that their original "upgrade" charger damper took the HSC adjuster away from everyone because it was better for them, and their "new upgrade" damper puts the HSC adjuster back because now that's better for them. What's even better is that it only has 5-clicks, so when they finally decide to give it proper range/granularity like Fox's HSC adjuster in the RC2 (the entire damper which they made an inferior copy of), it'll be their third opportunity to milk money from enduro plebs on the same product.

I think the Lyrik is a nice enough fork but I think it really needed to be pointed out that they could have done all this in the first place when they copied that damper.
No argument there.