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Enduro forks - digging through fecal matter

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,601
4,920
Australia
How is it possible in 2020, that every high end fork that comes out needs an aftermarket upgrade? Do they really? Or are we nitpicking bitches?
My only real complaint with the latest Lyrik is that you really need to stay on top of the servicing to keep it fresh. But its a pretty good fork. The Charger 2.1 RC2 cart doesn't do too much stupid shit, and their Debonair air spring works well IMO. They've released some kind of hop-up for the air spring but I haven't tried it and from what I've seen it just reduces the negative air back to pre-debonair levels?
 

ZHendo

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2006
1,661
147
PNW
I thought that after reading a few reviews on the Z1 with the pov pack grip damper that I probably wouldn't notice it's shortcomings under a fat bloke on a hardtail, nup, wrong, another display piece for the garage.
I've been thinking about trying the coil kit for my Z1 - it has been a pretty good fork on my hardtail, but I feel like the air spring has more friction and less negative volume than the air spring on my 2019 36 RC2. It could be harshness from the damper too, hard to say. I did take the advice of a reviewer on NSMB and remove and slightly re-clock the compression dial to run the damper slightly more open than stock, and it did seem to improve small bump a bit.
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,048
1,765
Northern California
My only real complaint with the latest Lyrik is that you really need to stay on top of the servicing to keep it fresh. But its a pretty good fork. The Charger 2.1 RC2 cart doesn't do too much stupid shit, and their Debonair air spring works well IMO. They've released some kind of hop-up for the air spring but I haven't tried it and from what I've seen it just reduces the negative air back to pre-debonair levels?
Servicing it is pretty easy, and the service intervals don't seem to be any different than they were on my 2015 36s. Sounds like they revised the air spring due to some users complaining about the suspension sagging without a load on the bike.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,167
9,818
AK
Yo fecal diggers, is this the "correct" Debonair shaft?


As in not the most current version, which sucks, but the one before that which is similar to the Luftkappe?
 

Rhubarb

Monkey
Jan 11, 2009
463
238
Yes that looks correct. I just switched from a Luftkappe to Debonair and there is a difference between the 2. The Debonair is supposed to have less friction because of the seals but the Luftkappe is more progressive. I put 1 token in with the Debonair and bottomed out on hard landing so might need to add 1 more (zero tokens with the Luftkappe). Haven’t decided which I prefer yet.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,167
9,818
AK
Well, I don't hate the fork, it's freaking amazing, so supportive, I can slam it as hard as I want in the tech terrain, but it's an Avy damper and it's damn near perfect. It's a little firm off the top, not harsh, but firm, supposedly this will help, but I'm not complaining much. I think my earlier Lyrik was a bit smoother off the top and this has been on the Yari I'm currently running, but again, not huge differences. Not with this much damping support.
 

Rhubarb

Monkey
Jan 11, 2009
463
238
Both the Luftkappe and Debonair feel a lot better than standard air spring, and should help with addressing the firmness you are feeling. Worth the price.
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,752
442
MA
That's the one. Yank out yo tokens and runs a firmer amount of psi than recommended. Very supple off the top and so much support from the air spring system.
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,752
442
MA
What’s the difference?

Read this and think of me next time you're on the pooper.

Cliff Notes - Many folks feel the B1 air spring is a better system. It closely matches the Vorsprung Luftkappe and prioritizes suppleness off the top and more mid stroke support. Both of these systems are setup in a way where the air spring will not precisely extend to full travel.

The C1 system seems to primarily address being able to have the fork extend to full travel and be able to have more useable travel for an amount of force. This comes at the expense of off the top suppleness and less mid stroke support.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,167
9,818
AK
People got all bitchy when they realized they were missing 5mm from their 170mm fork, even though it worked better.
 

troy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 3, 2008
1,018
760
How about using thant bottom rod extender and the old stanchion plug. Piston closer to the notch and bigger negative chamber. Win?
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,425
5,169
Ottawa, Canada
People got all bitchy when they realized they were missing 5mm from their 170mm fork, even though it worked better.
about that:
Vorsprung said:
The SECRET AIR CHAMBER is located between the bottom of your air spring stanchion, and the end of the lower leg. How does this function? When your fork is assembled, presumably it's done somewhere on earth in, you know, air. Air at atmospheric pressure isn't at zero absolute pressure, it's about 13psi above absolute vacuum. This means that your fork is put together, with about 13psi inside the lower leg. But there's ALSO about 13psi atmospheric pressure outside the fork, so as long as nothing moves, those two pressures oppose each other equally, and cancel out to zero force.

However, suspension forks do move, that's kind of the point of them. As a result, that SECRET AIR CHAMBER (all capitals because it's SECRET) changes in volume, and that 13psi inside them becomes a much higher pressure by bottom out. Meanwhile, inconveniently, the outside atmosphere is NOT increasing in pressure so it's not canceling this out. In fact, the pressure in the lowers can deliver up to 260N (58lbs) of force on its own by the time the fork bottoms, in certain forks. That's a lot of force, especially for light riders. Test it out for yourself - record the air pressure in your air spring as normal, then release all the pressure. Bounce on the fork and note how much resistance there is to bottoming even with negligible air spring pressure.

How to hack the SECRET AIR CHAMBER for reduced end-stroke progression:
1. Record your spring pressure, then depressurise your fork's air spring entirely
2. Flip your bike upside down and remove the front wheel.
3. Loosen your footbolt/footnut on the air spring side and tap the air loose from the lowers as though you're going to remove the lowers to service the fork, so that the air inside the lowers is not sealed off from the outside atmosphere.
4. Compress the fork 50-100%** of the way through its travel and hold it there
5. Depress the air spring shaft somewhat to ensure that it hasn't been pushed back into a position where it seals with the lowers
6. With the fork still held compressed, do the footnut/footbolt back up to seal the lowers off again. Check the torque specs for these and do them to the CORRECT torque for your fork.
7. Put your front wheel back on, flip bike upright again, put air pressure back in the air spring.

**This means that your lowers will have atmospheric air pressure in them at the position in the travel where the footbolts were done up instead of at full extension, greatly reducing the end-stroke ramp coming from the lowers. The further the fork is compressed when you do the footbolts up, the less air pressure you'll have inside the lowers, meaning the lower the ending stroke force. This means you can reach full travel much more easily for a given pressure in the air spring.

However, there is a side effect here - when the fork extends, it'll draw a vacuum in the lowers (relative to the atmospheric pressure outside the fork). That means the fork will suck down a bit from full extension, because there's now say 5psi absolute (so 8psi of vacuum, ie -8psi pressure) inside your fork lowers trying to extend the fork and 13psi absolute (atmospheric pressure) outside the fork trying to compress it. Depending on your air pressure, fork travel and how far into the travel the footbolts were sealed up, the fork may suck down anywhere from a couple of mm to as much as 10mm (maybe even more in extreme cases). Now it's up to you to decide whether that's a big deal or not. The fork will suck down further if you do the footbolts up at 100% compression rather than 50%, so you have the ability to "tune" this - somewhat crudely and imprecisely, but you can play with it. The process is completely reversible too - just repeat the process at full extension rather than compressing the fork before doing the footbolts up.
Source: https://mailchi.mp/0154723934e1/its-forkin-friday-291205?e=ca07b28eed
 

schwaaa31

Turbo Monkey
Jul 30, 2002
1,448
1,043
Clinton Massachusetts
Read this and think of me next time you're on the pooper.

Cliff Notes - Many folks feel the B1 air spring is a better system. It closely matches the Vorsprung Luftkappe and prioritizes suppleness off the top and more mid stroke support. Both of these systems are setup in a way where the air spring will not precisely extend to full travel.

The C1 system seems to primarily address being able to have the fork extend to full travel and be able to have more useable travel for an amount of force. This comes at the expense of off the top suppleness and less mid stroke support.
Hmmmm. You know you’re speaking Chinese to me, right? I have the C1 that I was going to install tonight. I thought the C1 fit the newer Lyriks and the B1 fit the pre 2018. I guess I’llsend this one back and get the B1.
 

Shizzon

Monkey
Jun 25, 2015
112
290
Ain't that what Freedom Nipples™ are supposed to address? Or ye olde zip tie between the stanchions/seals?
In the past I have only tweaked my nipples (MRP Ribbon and Fox 38) after long extended runs to equalize pressure after thermal effects (and chafing); I have not used them to try to change static lower internal pressure but assume that they would allow one to do so without disassembly?

FWIW I do not ever recall hearing a noise come out of the Ribbon's nipples when activated but noticed that my 38 after made audible noises of air equalizing when I pushed the buttons. Perhaps the 38 is generating a bit more heat with its he-man stanchions/seals?
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,167
9,818
AK
In the past I have only tweaked my nipples (MRP Ribbon and Fox 38) after long extended runs to equalize pressure after thermal effects (and chafing); I have not used them to try to change static lower internal pressure but assume that they would allow one to do so without disassembly?

FWIW I do not ever recall hearing a noise come out of the Ribbon's nipples when activated but noticed that my 38 after made audible noises of air equalizing when I pushed the buttons. Perhaps the 38 is generating a bit more heat with its he-man stanchions/seals?
Yeah, for years I've been "told" to do this, yet doing it occasionally on many different forks, I have never heard air hissing out, so I stopped. I stopped worrying about it. Evidently the symptoms of losing travel are fairly easy to spot/notice, so I just don't see the point to be constantly trying to stick a zip tie down...
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,048
1,765
Northern California
Yeah, for years I've been "told" to do this, yet doing it occasionally on many different forks, I have never heard air hissing out, so I stopped. I stopped worrying about it. Evidently the symptoms of losing travel are fairly easy to spot/notice, so I just don't see the point to be constantly trying to stick a zip tie down...
It's noticeable with a large enough change in elevation. For example, going from sea level to 7k feet I get hiss and a small change in feel.
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,048
1,765
Northern California
I know this will affect your setup immediately after servicing a fork but assumed that the lowers not necessarily designed to hold pressure would eventually equalize at static extension.
I've "accidentally" run into this with a new fork I slapped onto my bike. After several months I performed the first service and found quite a bit of vacuum in the lowers. The change in geometry was enough that I had to change cockpit setup to compensate. Based on that I don't think it equalizes on it's own very quickly.
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,752
442
MA
Hmmmm. You know you’re speaking Chinese to me, right? I have the C1 that I was going to install tonight. I thought the C1 fit the newer Lyriks and the B1 fit the pre 2018. I guess I’llsend this one back and get the B1.
They both fit. I'm aware that this seems a bit nitpicky, but you ride fast and are a downhiller at heart so you understand how good suspension feels. The B1 Debonair sags into and has no force on it at full extension. Kind of like a coil spring downhill fork that nestles into its travel a little under it's own weight. It's the most coil like off the top air spring I've felt and upping the PSI by 15lbs has been a revelation. I don't need to run the C1 to know that the changes made will make it feel more like it has a little preload off the top.

You will like the B1 better.
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
I've swept through a couple bike webs to compare the reviews/first look pieces on that fork. Seems like a lot of people had terrible issues reading the specifications, they mismatch the damper piston diameters, the place where the spring sits... I get it, the EXT site is a giant ball of tech words mashed together, but c'mon guys, it's not that hard to read which piston is what diameter...
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
86,322
24,815
media blackout
The first stage coil spring and crown/steer interface look interesting.
they must read forums.

also, that dual rate air spring is the same concept as the IRT that manitou uses in the mattoc and the mezzer. it takes a little extra time to get setup just right, but IMO it's definitely worth it and it does deliver what they're claiming.
 

vinny4130

Monkey
Jun 11, 2007
456
216
albuquerque
I also think the crown looks like a good idea! Some may not believe it but RM is one of the places I can be where I can read some bike sanity. For example on another site someone was wondering about the crown seat being out of tolerance.
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,590
1,085
La Verne
I'm most interested in the addition of the coil spring in series with the air spring.

Could be the best solution to getting the air spring moving