[mack]

Ok, so i want to get more involved with photography.

So far i have been taking pictures with a Sony 3.2 megapixel camera for about the past 3 years. I havent done really any mountain biking stuff at all, mostly landscapes and stuff like that. So now im finding that i want somthing with a 10x optical zoom and more pixels for those big scenic photos. And it has to have an interchangable lense. Does any one have any good suggestions based on experience? When i used to be at boarding school i could borrow the nearest preppies 10 mega pixel camera, but i dont go there any more. So im looking to spend the last of my summer pay check, wich is around 600 bucks. Thanks

-mack

 

[Five]

Ok, so i want to get more involved with photography.

So far i have been taking pictures with a Sony 3.2 megapixel camera for about the past 3 years. I havent done really any mountain biking stuff at all, mostly landscapes and stuff like that. So now im finding that i want somthing with a 10x optical zoom and more pixels for those big scenic photos. And it has to have an interchangable lense. Does any one have any good suggestions based on experience? When i used to be at boarding school i could borrow the nearest preppies 10 mega pixel camera, but i dont go there any more. So im looking to spend the last of my summer pay check, wich is around 600 bucks. Thanks

-mack

So, you're looking for a digital SLR camera. Well, for $650 you're not going to get anything brand new. Check out some used stuff. Focus on getting a good lens. Both Canon and Nikon make good stuff.

 

[mack]

Are Sigma's good lenses? There seem to be some good package deals on ebay.

 

[ito]

If you only have 600 bucks I wouldn't be looking at digital SLR's. You won't get much unless you find something well used.

Try overstock.com

I picked up an Olympus digital camera last there last year. $350 for 2 small memory cards, tri-pod, charger, battery, case, cleaning kit, and a 5MP camera. It takes great photos, though it sucks indoors and the flash is pretty crap. However it has a hotspot to add a flash or remote flash signal to the top and you can purchase different lenses. It isn't SLR, but you can add a telephoto, fisheye, wide angle, or macro lense to it with the right adapter(available from Olympus). It also takes some nice photos, here are a few examples.

The Ito

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

find a slightly used digi rebel on ebay, just make sure you get a legit one, not a refurb... they go for around 650...like posted above you are going to have to pick up a lense as well, the stock digi rebel lense will do the trick, but it isnt optimal.

 

[merrrrjig]

Ya a digital rebel would be the best started SLR, for your price it will have to be used. sigma lenses are ok, Ive never used one b4. I wouldnt fall for the ebay packages, they are a rip and the memory cards and some lenses are crap, go to www.photography-on-the.net for a great canon board!!

 

[Toshi]

if you want a "10x optical zoom" you don't want a SLR.

 

[Sherpa]

Ya a digital rebel would be the best started SLR, for your price it will have to be used. sigma lenses are ok, Ive never used one b4. I wouldnt fall for the ebay packages, they are a rip and the memory cards and some lenses are crap, go to www.photography-on-the.net for a great canon board!!

Just spend the extra bank and get the Digital Rebel XT.

 

[Carbon Fetish]

Just spend the extra bank and get the Digital Rebel XT.

I just got one on a special deal. 2 gig card, tripod, and bag came free with purchase. I need to sell my Sony DSC 717 and get some other lenses.

 

[Kornphlake]

Ebay a Pentax K 1000 with a 50mm lens and a bulk lot of ISO 100 film. You'll learn a lot more respect for composition and have better quality enlarged prints for less money.

 

[buildyourown]

Kornflake,
I just sold my old k1000 on ebay for $35.


Mack, I have a Kodak 6490. It has a 10x optical zoom. It's not an SLR but it was only $500. It works ok for action. It has a 6 shot burst mode that takes the guess work out of trying to shot moving riders.

For the money you are looking to spend, I'd stick with film.

 

[MikeD]

Ebay a Pentax K 1000 with a 50mm lens and a bulk lot of ISO 100 film. You'll learn a lot more respect for composition and have better quality enlarged prints for less money.

Listen to this man. I'd enroll in a community college or somesuch course in photography, too. It'll make the processing much cheaper than if you pay a lab for it (although you'll pay for film and printing paper...) and teach you so much more than a digi would.

MD

 

[Zaskar Rider]

Pony up for the nikon D70. B&H usually has pretty good prices.

Nikon is making the D50 now also, I don't know much about it but it's close to your price point.

Sigma makes some good lenses and some crappy lenses. I've heard good things about their 12-24mm but haven't reasearched much else in their line. Another off brand lens manufacturer is Tokina. I use their 28-80mm f2.8 pro. The stuff in their "pro" line is pretty good and much cheaper than the comprable Nikkor glass.

 

[binary visions]

First of all, the opinion to "stick with film" especially on a budget, with all due respect, is a huge steaming load .

Well, not really, but you have to figure out what kind of person you are. I took not even a tenth of the pictures I take now when I was still using film. Under the best of circumstances. It has the potential to be both a big hassle and very expensive if you have no access to a photo lab or cheap materials.

I settled down and banked a little money, and invested in a decent digital camera. I've since taken several thousand pictures with it, and I've learned far more about photography than I ever would have with film.

If you have access to a photo lab, and you're the kind of person with the inclination to develop stuff yourself, and you have a budget for materials, then film might be worth it. For me, it wasn't.

With a Digital SLR, and a budget of $600, you're going to get a mediocre body and a lousy lens. And no big zoom. There's no way you're getting a body AND big zoom for that price.

Konica Minolta DiMAGE Z5
Fujifilm FinePix S5500
Nikon Coolpix 8800

Just go to www.dpreview.com and start browsing the high zoom all-in-ones. Unless you decide you can deal with film, that budget will not net you a dSLR with a big zoom.

 

[binary visions]

Oh, and Sigma makes some good lenses, and some crappy lenses, just like all the other manufacturers, including Nikon and Canon. You get what you pay for. Buy a cheap lens from Nikon and you'll get a lens that's every bit as bad as a cheap lens from Sigma.

 

[firetoole]

here is a sweet entry level camera in your price rang

 

[clancy98]

IMO stay away from the coolpix line....

 

[MikeD]

First of all, the opinion to "stick with film" especially on a budget, with all due respect, is a huge steaming load .

Not really. Not when he wants to do quality photography. At his budget, as you mentioned, there's nothing he can get that'll give good images the way he wants.

Now, my Canon S70 compact gives awesome images, and has loads of adjustability, and I can turn the flash control to manual to eliminate nearly all shooting lag, but learning photography on a camera like this doesn't (in my opinion as a former photography teacher/assistant, way back in college) really teach you what's going on inside the camera, or give you true control over the image.

For learning purposes, an SLR with manual-only controls (K1000, Nikon Fm, myriad old Canon, Nikon/Nikkormat, and Pentax models) is really the best way to learn. (Except for a view camera, which is THE best way to do it.)
And for the price of one of these cameras with a 50mm lens (or a 28mm and 105mm lens), he can afford a 100' roll of bulk black and white film, loader, cannisters, and tuition to a local short course in photo, plus some printing paper.

The instant feedback from digital generally teaches you to work fairly randomly, doing "recon by fire" and generally assessing the situation by the image you're producing, rather than making good judgements about metering, flash (all to often done automatically anyhow), composition, and the like. Paying for the film and the associated process will force you to consider what you're doing more and ultimately make you a better photographer. Plus, you won't have this mental need to stop to look at every image as you make it, which can interrupt things.

It's like starting riding on a DH bike. You can (validly) say, "Well, I want to ride DH, so I'll get a Dh bike as my first ride and learn on it," but there's the converse view of "go buy an all-around hardtail, build some fitness, learn about general bike handling, line choice, mechanics, etc., before you jump on an 8" bike and just start blasting through ****." Building that base of knowledge and technique lays the foundations for doing better once you've got the specialized gear.

Anyway, Mack, if you're getting a compact digi, I recommend the S70. Badass little camera. If you want a digi SLR, save for a D70 and get older used Tokina ATX lenses if you need a zoom (great aftermarket gear; what I use on my D70...the autofocus isn't going to be as faast as Nikon's latest, though, so it's best in MF).

By the way, zoom lenses aren't good to learn on, either. (IMHO) A 50mm IS best, then a 28mm, then a 105mm. Learn the real effects of the optics, not just, "Cool, now I can stand further away!" Often, you want to be closer to your subject...but you have to avoid making the "cool wide angle effect shot of rider in corner" too often, too. If you do use zooms, set them at one setting and then move around...don't just sit in one place and zoom in and out, especially at first. Think about what you want your image to look like, set an appropriate focal length, then fudge with the zoom if you're forced to by your viewpoint.

I realized most of my own photos were too obviously wide-angle recently, contrary to my desire to avoid cliche. I'm now going to start shooting with a Leica M3 that my dad's wife just inherited and are mailing to me...restrict myself to a 50mm and see what I can do.

Anyhow,

MD

 

[binary visions]

Not really. Not when he wants to do quality photography.

Ahh, yeah, my comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek. I agree that a manual film camera can give someone a great understanding of photography, but I was pointing out that it really depends on your personality type. If you won't take the time to do the developing, then it's serving much less of a purpose than even the cheapest point-and-shoot.

For me, it was easier to have a camera that allowed me to force myself to work in manual mode, than it was to have a camera that forced me to.

Just a personal difference, though.

 

[pixelninja]

Not really. Not when he wants to do quality photography. At his budget, as you mentioned, there's nothing he can get that'll give good images the way he wants.

*more stuff*

That's good advice there, Mike.

 

[MikeD]

For me, it was easier to have a camera that allowed me to force myself to work in manual mode, than it was to have a camera that forced me to.

Just a personal difference, though.

If he could afford a digi SLR, I'd say go for it, but when he's looking at a compact, well, I think he's better served with film. "Manual" on a compact is usually not all that manual...and very incovenient to use in lots of cases.

Then again, it always cracked me up to have students proudly working in "manual" mode instead of aperture or shutter priority mode, when all they were doing was balancing the light meter needle in the viewfinder for whatever scene they were looking at, backlit, snowbound, whatever. If you're gonna do that, might as well be in an automatic mode... Manual's only as good as your light metering skills.

 

[SilentJ]

....... Plus, you won't have this mental need to stop to look at every image as you make it, which can interrupt things.....

This is, potentially, THE most annoying thing in the history of digital cameras. It makes me want to stab people in the neck with a shovel. *click* "Okay, now everbody gather 'round the sh!tty little mini-screen to see a picture of something that we just saw in real life!" :nuts: :nuts:

I rock a Pentax P3 and a Super Program w/ a 50mm f2.0, 28mm f2.8, and a 100mm f4.0 Macro. I'll probably hang on to them and pick up a nice digital one day. I'm still very undecided as to which way I'm going to go with the digital, though. Maybe a Canon EOS 1Ds Mark II :evil: :devil:

 

[pixelninja]

"Manual" on a compact is usually not all that manual...and very incovenient to use in lots of cases.

True :angry:

When I bought my Canon S500, I was pretty excited that it had a "manual" mode. However when I got it, I found that by "manual" they actually meant "program". I can adjust a few parameters, but when it comes time to actually take a photo, the camera does all the work.

 

[biggins]

Just spend the extra bank and get the Digital Rebel XT.

i agree with that.

you could also get something along the lines of the canon powershot G5 which is what i use and i have stepped up to semi pro photographer with it. it takes good shots and has lots of useful functions.

 

[MikeD]

This is, potentially, THE most annoying thing in the history of digital cameras. It makes me want to stab people in the neck with a shovel. *click* "Okay, now everbody gather 'round the sh!tty little mini-screen to see a picture of something that we just saw in real life!" :nuts: :nuts:

That actually made me snort.

I'm guilty, though, of showing riders there pic immediately after taking it...turning into a digi-zombie...

 

[MikeD]

you could also get something along the lines of the canon powershot G5 which is what i use and i have stepped up to semi pro photographer with it. it takes good shots and has lots of useful functions.

Good point; my love of my S70 is due to its compact size...the G-series might be a lot better for what he's looking at.

I wanted a camera I could bring along without making my trip/ride into a specifically photographic exercise (which happens with my SLR), so I got a really small one.

In any case, Canon is the way to go with digi compacts, in my opinion.

MD

 

[pixelninja]

This is, potentially, THE most annoying thing in the history of digital cameras. It makes me want to stab people in the neck with a shovel. *click* "Okay, now everbody gather 'round the sh!tty little mini-screen to see a picture of something that we just saw in real life!" :nuts: :nuts:

A term has been coined for this.

Chimping. Where someone takes a picture and other gathers round the camera and go "ouh ouh ouh"

http://www.photo.net/bboard/nw-fetch-msg?msg_id=00BYMA&unified_p=1

http://www.sportsshooter.com/special_feature/chimping/index.html

 

[MikeD]

by the way, www.keh.com is a good place for used gear. There are cheaper deals around, but KEH has awesome customer service and support. You won't get that from EBay when it turns out your just-purchased SLR has a problem with the aperture-following tab on the camera body.

Edit: Looks like they have a good digi selection, too, including some Digi Rebel packages. [/ed]

Seriously, I recommend them.

MD

PS: Chimping. I like it.

 

[MikeD]

Wow, are these any good? (I really don't know much about digi gear...should probably check dpreview or someplace, but I'm not going to buy one, so I won't bother...)

http://www.keh.com/shop/showproduct.cfm?CRID=10996494&SKID=DM05999073872M1&SID=digital2&BID=DM&CID=05&SOID=N&curpic=0

Looks like a possible option for Mack. Nice wide apertures on the lenses, even at full telephoto.

MD

 

[binary visions]

Nice wide apertures on the lenses, even at full telephoto.

Actually, that's pretty standard - or even on the small side - for so-called "prosumer" digicams. Since the sensor is so small, they can make the apertures huge even at telephoto. My Sony DSC-F717 does f/2 @ wide angle and f/2.4 at telephoto (~200mm).

 

[MikeD]

Cool...my little digi only does 5.3 at the long end...but it's pretty small.

 

[Toshi]

Actually, that's pretty standard - or even on the small side - for so-called "prosumer" digicams. Since the sensor is so small, they can make the apertures huge even at telephoto. My Sony DSC-F717 does f/2 @ wide angle and f/2.4 at telephoto (~200mm).

on the other hand such wide apertures on compact cams aren't as useful as they'd sound, as the small sensor (small CoC) and short actual (vs. effective) focal length creates depth of field in abundance even when not desired.

at least having f/2.4 mitigates somewhat the uselessness of high ISOs on small cams...

MikeD: while i agree that a manual film SLR + 50mm prime is the "proper" way to go, do you really think it fits mack's statement?

So now im[sic] finding that i want somthing[sic] with a 10x optical zoom and more pixels for those big scenic photos. And it has to have an interchangable lense[sic].

 

[MikeD]

MikeD: while i agree that a manual film SLR + 50mm prime is the "proper" way to go, do you really think it fits mack's statement?

Of course it's not what he wants...but I'm trying to guide him to what'd be best for him. Again, bike-analogy-wise, it's someone asking, "I've ridden a little on my friend's bike, and I have a Magma full-suspension that I bought as wal-mart, but I'd like to upgrade. What full-suspension bike under $800 will let me freeride and downhill race in Expert class?"

I mean, we all know the answer to that...

MD

 

[MikeD]

on the other hand such wide apertures on compact cams aren't as useful as they'd sound, as the small sensor (small CoC) and short actual (vs. effective) focal length creates depth of field in abundance even when not desired.

Nearly unlimited DOF is a given on any compact digi at most apertures. Just a charateristic of this type of photography. However, allowing a higher shutter speed with a lower ISO setting is REALLY valuable in action photography.

MD

 

[binary visions]

on the other hand such wide apertures on compact cams aren't as useful as they'd sound, as the small sensor (small CoC) and short actual (vs. effective) focal length creates depth of field in abundance even when not desired.

Undoubtedly. I'm not touting the big apertures as a great feature of digicams, just pointing out that the camera in question actually wasn't quite as impressive in this market as it appears.

Still pinching my pennies to afford a dSLR & some decent glass... In the meantime, I'll keep plugging away and teaching myself as much as I can with my Sony

 

[VA2SLOride]

Focus on getting a good lens.

he he he....pun intended?

 

[Toshi]

[using your selective-quoting-fu, i like how you separated my two subjects into two replies ]

However, allowing a higher shutter speed with a lower ISO setting is REALLY valuable in action photography.

ah, true, except that flash x-sync speed is the true limiter of most action photography, with "most" meaning no huge strobes or assistants bearing reflectors...

ink:

 

[MikeD]

[using your selective-quoting-fu, i like how you separated my two subjects into two replies ]



ah, true, except that flash x-sync speed is the true limiter of most action photography, with "most" meaning no huge strobes or assistants bearing reflectors...

ink:

Depends on what kind of shutter you're using...heh...too bad, really, that these digis don't have leaf shutters. I'm planning on trying some mtb photos with my TLR...1/500 flash sync...

Actually, my D70 has a 1/500 sync, too...very useful. But after shooting in New Zealand with that compact, I was really wishing for some wider apertures at times. It's dark under the tree canopy there.

(heh, I wrote one post, then went back and saw I had something else to say, and didn't want to go through the cut/paste/url-tag to quote a second part of your post, so I just hit "quote" again. Not exactly matrix-style king fu, I must admit.)

 

[Five]

he he he....pun intended?

Ahh, no, but that's pretty funny.

 

[Kornphlake]

I'm not the photography guru I may have made myself out to be in my first post but I'll continue with the rhetoric...

What's the largest elargement you can get away with from a 35mm ISO100 negative? I've gotten 8X11 out of color film with a tolerable amount of grain. What's the largest print you can get away with from say a 5 megapixel digital image? At this size what's the actual cost of printing done at a photo lab vs. printing at Kinko's?