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europe - the final countdown

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,516
1,738
Warsaw :/
You again? God I remember your comments about us politics, won.

Hollande may be actually good for France. Also it's politics people make deals. Nothing will happen and as bad Putin is for freedom of speech for financial stability he works quite good (don't mix with equality). Long story short. I doubt a lot will change.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Hollande may be actually good for France.
how so?

we yanks tend to look down on entitlement mentalities, which -- right or wrong -- is how we see france, and by extension, much of europe proper (excepting germany).

have i over-simplified the tragedy of france? i'd love nothing more than to work 34 hrs/wk with 2 months off every year until my early 50's, but i'm not sure that's sustainable if most of the country is doing the same thing. oh, and add to that all the sans papiers, and it's looking pretty bleak from over here.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,516
1,738
Warsaw :/
I love american right wingers who think any kind of social care is bad. Do you realize that you can't be creatively productive for 40h/week? If your job is repetitive than yeah you may do that but repetitive jobs are getting much more rare.

I'm not fond of handouts but long vacation and shorter weekdays = more motivated and productive workers. Just ask the Japanease how overworking helps them with their creativity... Also you can be a socialism and creative incentives to work for people. Not incentives for rich people (sorry jurb creators) to maybe create a job if they find like they feel to which has been proven not to work.

btw. you should also check your facts if you except Germany. They are not as good as the French but all of western Europe except for UK goes that way and UK is actually in the biggest trouble of the rich west countries.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
how so?

we yanks tend to look down on entitlement mentalities, which -- right or wrong -- is how we see france, and by extension, much of europe proper (excepting germany).

have i over-simplified the tragedy of france? i'd love nothing more than to work 34 hrs/wk with 2 months off every year until my early 50's, but i'm not sure that's sustainable if most of the country is doing the same thing. oh, and add to that all the sans papiers, and it's looking pretty bleak from over here.

Show me *one* group in the US that voluntarily gives up their *own* entitlement. Not someone else's, but their own. Unless you think these guys are the pinnacle of fiscal restraint?

 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
I love american right wingers who think any kind of social care is bad.
didn't know we were now talking about that (well, i'm not). if you mean the sovereign citizen types, they're statistically insignificant to this topic. i fully acknowledge the perceived hypocrisy in that the vast majority of the remaining set of right wingers are likely to be actively reaping some sort of social care. however, the issue at hand is a combination of lack of accountability for benefit recipients, as well as lack of structure to elicit recovery, creating a dysfunctional co-dependency. to over-simplify: "you vote for me, and i'll keep your unearned benefits streaming in perpetuity"

and of course the flip side to that is the other guy says, "you vote for me, and the browns we don't deport or put in our penal industry will be forced to earn their keep"
Do you realize that you can't be creatively productive for 40h/week? If your job is repetitive than yeah you may do that but repetitive jobs are getting much more rare.
at my work, we have a 'product backlog', so it never ends (which is good), and we're constantly looking how to best automate what we're doing now, with how it will relate to what lay ahead.

result? instead of hiring a bunch of ditch-diggers, we hire engineers & other creative talent to invent utilities for work-force multiplication. not saying it can't be done w/ only 34 hrs/week, but i'm sure there's a laffer curve equivalent that could apply here. for me, if i work < 40 hrs/week, i'm less productive as a portion of my time. as usual, YMMV.
I'm not fond of handouts but long vacation and shorter weekdays = more motivated and productive workers. Just ask the Japanease how overworking helps them with their creativity...
seems to me they are industry leaders at autos, electronics, and various leading edge pornography, all of which have to be the direct result of their tenacity & work ethic. i don't think backing off 20% would be terribly helpful in maintaining their station above others.
Also you can be a socialism and creative incentives to work for people. Not incentives for rich people (sorry jurb creators) to maybe create a job if they find like they feel to which has been proven not to work.
while true, i would argue this would be less of a motivator as the free market. yes, i could put myself out there for another 10%, but what socialist model has ever resulted in the kinds of growth seen in the free market? the military planted the seeds for the internet; the free market has been directly responsible for its unlimited growth.

put another way: would you agree the free market is better at both creating & fairly -- NOT EVENLY -- distributing wealth than socialism? i'm not advocating for a 100% free market society over a 100% socialist one, but certainly one that would lean more heavily toward it. i don't see how europe can recover w/o taking some very uncomfortable austerity measures, and as dante has correctly implied, this would have to be snatched from beneficiaries.

in fact, there may be a need to re-define what an entitlement truly is, b/c so many conflate benefit w/ entitlement, myself included. the differences are subtle, but the economic impacts are anything but
btw. you should also check your facts if you except Germany. They are not as good as the French but all of western Europe except for UK goes that way and UK is actually in the biggest trouble of the rich west countries.
i'm pretty well versed on the troubles of the uk, if watching weekly debates b/t cameron & miliband are any accurate measure
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,516
1,738
Warsaw :/
didn't know we were now talking about that (well, i'm not). if you mean the sovereign citizen types, they're statistically insignificant to this topic. i fully acknowledge the perceived hypocrisy in that the vast majority of the remaining set of right wingers are likely to be actively reaping some sort of social care. however, the issue at hand is a combination of lack of accountability for benefit recipients, as well as lack of structure to elicit recovery, creating a dysfunctional co-dependency. to over-simplify: "you vote for me, and i'll keep your unearned benefits streaming in perpetuity"
And it doesn't work the same way with "you vote for me and I will keep the taxes down"? It's the same mechanic only different political view. You have to vote on politicians who offer long term solutions. Voting socialist doesn't mean they won't go for long term.
Also all the countries with the highest HDI and quality of living standards (way more important than GNP per capita or avg. pay) are waay more socialist than the US. Not to mention a lot of the socialist countries are often on the hardest working lists (Canada, Iceland before US right wing free market ideas ****ed it up). Also if you are a "socialism is teh evil" person you are a crazy right winger for me. A centrist tries to see advantages of both sides.

at my work, we have a 'product backlog', so it never ends (which is good), and we're constantly looking how to best automate what we're doing now, with how it will relate to what lay ahead.




result? instead of hiring a bunch of ditch-diggers, we hire engineers & other creative talent to invent utilities for work-force multiplication. not saying it can't be done w/ only 34 hrs/week, but i'm sure there's a laffer curve equivalent that could apply here. for me, if i work < 40 hrs/week, i'm less productive as a portion of my time. as usual, YMMV.
What break through inventions or truly innovative your company made? I'm pretty sure Nokia and Microsoft ppl also find themselves productive. Hell find me one hard working person who will call himself unproductive.

Read a bit on science on learning, training and effective use of your brain. The amount of time you are really productive has been measured. Not that I think of work force manipulation as a creative field. Hell you will probably be replaced by computer programs and equations sooner than I am.

seems to me they are industry leaders at autos, electronics, and various leading edge pornography, all of which have to be the direct result of their tenacity & work ethic. i don't think backing off 20% would be terribly helpful in maintaining their station above others.
In siemmens hq they live early at fridays. I didn't notice them failing recently... Working harder is stupid term of the old. Working smarter is what you should do.

while true, i would argue this would be less of a motivator as the free market. yes, i could put myself out there for another 10%, but what socialist model has ever resulted in the kinds of growth seen in the free market? the military planted the seeds for the internet; the free market has been directly responsible for its unlimited growth.
You mean unlimited growth of social inequality? The biggest experiments in total free market failed. Iceland, 80s South America, Indonesia, Russia. While the biggest development of countries has been largely been created by strong guidance of the government - US was way more socialist when it was growing than now when it looses it's advantage. Japan became a superpower thanks to a strong govt.

Also since when the military is private? :rolleyes: It's around a third of the US budget so did I miss something and you sold it to Chinease recently? Govt Funded research.

put another way: would you agree the free market is better at both creating & fairly -- NOT EVENLY -- distributing wealth than socialism? i'm not advocating for a 100% free market society over a 100% socialist one, but certainly one that would lean more heavily toward it. i don't see how europe can recover w/o taking some very uncomfortable austerity measures, and as dante has correctly implied, this would have to be snatched from beneficiaries.
Fairly? No. Different people have different chances. If you claim a poor person from a bad neighborhood has the same chances as a middle or upper class kid sorry but you are an delusional.
I'm not for old XX century socialism with handouts but for a modern one of equalizing chances. Free market doesn't eqalize chances. It makes the gap bigger and bigger. Again look for the examples of countries I mentioned. Overregulation is bad but regulation is good and needed. You don't want cartels, you want equal chances. Not only because you like other people but because inequality is the biggest reason of social unrest and crime. Don't like getting raped? Make other people in your country a bit more content with their lives.

in fact, there may be a need to re-define what an entitlement truly is, b/c so many conflate benefit w/ entitlement, myself included. the differences are subtle, but the economic impacts are anything but
i'm pretty well versed on the troubles of the uk, if watching weekly debates b/t cameron & miliband are any accurate measure
What I don't like overall about what you speak is that you are a fundamentalist. You see that pure old socialist model doesn't work anymore but can't see a pure free market doesn't either. We need a solution based system, not stupid topics about how bad socialism or non socialism is. Solutions are good, ideology is stupid.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
And it doesn't work the same way with "you vote for me and I will keep the taxes down"? It's the same mechanic only different political view. You have to vote on politicians who offer long term solutions. Voting socialist doesn't mean they won't go for long term.
this might explain the position you're referring to: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/doug-casey-taxes-and-freedom
Also if you are a "socialism is teh evil" person you are a crazy right winger for me. A centrist tries to see advantages of both sides.
what could be more evil than sowing the seeds of sloth & nurturing an entitlement mentality? can you imagine how motivated an entrepreneur would be knowing he's forced into a partnership w/ the gov't, and that their partner may intentionally affect how financially successful the business could be? with that kind of glass ceiling, a "good enough" mentality is fostered.

sure, i see the need for regulation to create guardrails against worker abuse & industry monopoly, but these should kick in well after free-market incentives have been exhausted. that's precisely the kind of top-side safety net needed for trickle-down wealth creation.
What break through inventions or truly innovative your company made?
we create tailored products for the military, mostly. they get it in their head the way things should be done, & we see a way to make it more efficient, & more user friendly, with fewer errors than the existing systems. we're not curing cancer, but we're improving the quality of the lives of the military & their families through our various custom services.

at the end of delivery, we decommission their costly systems & replace it with ours, to significant tax payers savings.
Read a bit on science on learning, training and effective use of your brain. The amount of time you are really productive has been measured. Not that I think of work force manipulation as a creative field. Hell you will probably be replaced by computer programs and equations sooner than I am.
that's what we're striving for
In siemmens hq they live early at fridays. I didn't notice them failing recently... Working harder is stupid term of the old. Working smarter is what you should do.
would you have me think that everyone -- or some very large share -- of them works < 40/week & takes 10 weeks of vac per annum? larger question: if company xyz pays dollar-for-dollar more than abc, shouldn't that be my perfect right to choose to work for which ever company better suits my lifestyle? the free market says 'yes, but only if you love freedom'
You mean unlimited growth of social inequality?
we have the richest poor in the world
Japan became a superpower thanks to a strong govt.
yes, the united states
If you claim a poor person from a bad neighborhood has the same chances as a middle or upper class kid sorry but you are an delusional.
never said, implied, nor believed that.
Free market doesn't eqalize chances.
i think i see what you're getting at here: price fixing on higher education, right? and making these institutions in downtown detroit...and taking alumni donors' monies & pooling them for even distribution. not sure you'll have the intended outcome with that, unless you want the quality to be pegged at the lowest-common denominator
inequality is the biggest reason of social unrest and crime.
funny, i thought it was unchecked, brazen, institutionalized, unapologetic gov't corruption
Don't like getting raped? Make other people in your country a bit more content with their lives.
or convert them to islam. rape convictions are at an all-time low in those parts.
What I don't like overall about what you speak is that you are a fundamentalist.
do you not operate under basis of fundamentals, or are you an anything-but-free-market-capitalist-wind-checker, which is an obvious form of an ideology?
Solutions are good, ideology is stupid.
concur.
maybe they can take cues from those on this list: http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
I'll start listening to Heritage.org when their prediction that we will have paid off our entire national debt by 2011 thanks to the GWB tax cuts finally comes true...

As for your zerohedge article:

It could even be seen as a patriotic duty &#8211; if one believes in such things &#8211; to deny revenue to the state any way possible, short of endangering yourself
During WWII we bought war bonds to give the government more money to fight the war. Today right-wingers are claiming that it's "patriotic" to deny the government revenue (while demanding we fight foreign wars, and to keep those Medicare/Social Security checks coming). Pretty much sums up why right-wingers are the most UNpatriotic assholes in this country right now....
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,516
1,738
Warsaw :/
I'll start listening to Heritage.org when their prediction that we will have paid off our entire national debt by 2011 thanks to the GWB tax cuts finally comes true...

As for your zerohedge article:



During WWII we bought war bonds to give the government more money to fight the war. Today right-wingers are claiming that it's "patriotic" to deny the government revenue (while demanding we fight foreign wars, and to keep those Medicare/Social Security checks coming). Pretty much sums up why right-wingers are the most UNpatriotic assholes in this country right now....
It always amazes me how many poor Americans vote against their own interest because everyone of them thinks of themselves as a potential millionaire.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
I'll start listening to Heritage.org when their prediction that we will have paid off our entire national debt by 2011 thanks to the GWB tax cuts finally comes true...
"poisoning the well"
please share with us the many flaws in their lazy-cum-capricious research, and i'll start taking your posts more seriously
Pretty much sums up why right-wingers are the most UNpatriotic assholes in this country right now....
really? they edged out #occupytards for the crown?

also, the murdoch-compensated rantings of a god-less infidel are to be considered:

 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
What, you don't remember this? Or just trying to block it out of your memory?

And you're right, all of those countries with Socialized Medicine obviously have to pay much more for health care for much worse results in life expectancy..... Thank god we've got the power of the FREE MARKET here to keep our prices down and quality of care up.

really? they edged out #occupytards for the crown?
Tie. They both demand everything that they can get from the government while refusing to pay for any of it.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
What, you don't remember this? Or just trying to block it out of your memory?
so...this pre-9/11 article is still relevant, how?
And you're right, all of those countries with Socialized Medicine obviously have to pay much more for health care for much worse results in life expectancy..... Thank god we've got the power of the FREE MARKET here to keep our prices down and quality of care up.
the free-market of fast food has been our undoing, which socialized medicine will likely never hold a candle to
Tie. They both demand everything that they can get from the government while refusing to pay for any of it.
short list of offenses committed by the occutards, done in their name:
- assault cops
- rape/sexual assault in encampments, some of minors
- public defecation/urination
- destroying SMALL businesses
- intimidation
- arson
- graffiti (and not the good kind)
- throwing bricks into crowd from rooftops
- rioting
- drug dealing
- murder
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
that article is from 2009...
They just passed a law for it and theyre letting mayors decide wether they want to enforce it in their city or not.
Especially border regions are jumping aboard, and everyone and their mom are selling weed on streetcorners and are having a field day.
This is probably one of the dumbest things theyve ever done.
Belgium is even making fun of Holland by doing a similar thing with Belgian beers...
 
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dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
so...this pre-9/11 article is still relevant, how?
You're giving Al Qaeda credit for a $15 trillion swing in our economy? What's that, roughly $1T/terrorist? They'd be honored to hear that you think so highly of them.

$tinkle said:
the free-market of fast food has been our undoing, which socialized medicine will likely never hold a candle to
They don't have fast food in countries with socialized medicine? Interesting. Is that by governmental decree, or are they just naturally smarter than we are?


$tinkle said:
short list of offenses committed by the occutards, done in their name:
- assault cops
- rape/sexual assault in encampments, some of minors
- public defecation/urination
- destroying SMALL businesses
- intimidation
- arson
- graffiti (and not the good kind)
- throwing bricks into crowd from rooftops
- rioting
- drug dealing
- murder
Do you know the difference between "in their name" and "attributed to them (by Fox News)"? No, apparently not.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
You're giving Al Qaeda credit for a $15 trillion swing in our economy? What's that, roughly $1T/terrorist? They'd be honored to hear that you think so highly of them.
this suggestion is closer than you think; hint: "hussein" (both varieties)
They don't have fast food in countries with socialized medicine? Interesting. Is that by governmental decree, or are they just naturally smarter than we are?
our marketing & delivery systems are the gold standard.
Do you know the difference between "in their name" and "attributed to them (by Fox News)"? No, apparently not.
"foxnews" :rofl:

you are so full of bile. do you replenish the poisoned well with your own homebrew?

i can attribute every item in that list by nyt, sfgate, & latimes. challenge accepted?
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
^^^^Sorry, don't have time to argue, too busy ticking items off that list while wearing a ridiculous 18th century costume with teabags hanging from my tri-corner hat. You know, holding an entire movement responsible for the actions of one person and all...
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,562
2,208
Front Range, dude...

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
Stinkle, you sir, may officially be dumber than me. You have trouble making clear, fact based points. You like your rhetoric and it's fallacious.

I really hope you are joking because that santorum from limbaugh seems to be working in so deep it comes out in your arguments.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
It's too much stupid for me to even handle, or want to bother to respond. This is at the point where it's us going 2+2=4 and stinkle is insisting it's 7, there's no point.
i'm not entirely convinced you understand the drivel i've pecked out. i get the sense that you are firmly in possession of a rigidly ideological position that free market capitalism is absolutely rife w/ failure, abuse, & avarice, and will scour the ends of the earth to find anything that fits this world view.

whereas i recognize there are positive aspects of socialism, and they happen to also occur in free market capitalism. can you explain to me a quality of socialism that does NOT exist in capitalism?

next, can someone (norbar, perhaps) give a euro equivalent on this:
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
i'm not entirely convinced you understand the drivel i've pecked out. i get the sense that you are firmly in possession of a rigidly ideological position that free market capitalism is absolutely rife w/ failure, abuse, & avarice, and will scour the ends of the earth to find anything that fits this world view.

whereas i recognize there are positive aspects of socialism, and they happen to also occur in free market capitalism. can you explain to me a quality of socialism that does NOT exist in capitalism?

next, can someone (norbar, perhaps) give a euro equivalent on this:
Stinkle what do you have a degree in??? I've got an associates now in poli sci/economics, (changed teh major, so I didn't get the bachelors) I started school as a libertarian, then I did a ton of reading, of statistics, studies, facts, figures, and understood that I was in fact wrong. This has nothing to do with ideology or opinion, it has to do with the fact that yours are not based on fact, but talking points.

Here is a perfect example, health care. I've used it before and it works here as well. 2 situations involving the treatment of AIDS

1) Capitalism- you own big pharma who makes 15 different aids drugs, that all get taken by the same person. Every pill they take is more profit in your hands, remember profit is the motive here, not taking care of people, capitalism rewards PROFIT, not morality. You, as the CEO of big pharma stand to make several hundred grand off every single aids patient. Where as if you cure it, you get paid out 1 treatment till the disease is gone, then that source of profit is now GONE, and you have actually hurt yourself helping people.

2) socialism- you just got elected to head of the healthcare administration, and you want to get re elected. So you write a bill to fund the cure for AIDS. So in this situation it's a win win win win win, across the board. 1) you just got re-elected 2) no more people dieing from aids and 3) you now saved tax payers over 10,000$ per year per AIDS patient on drugs

Seriously dude, you're not going to win this with logic. It's just not possible.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Socialism can give you the most value, or cheapest product.

Capitalism can give you the *best* product at whatever price the market will bear.

This is true in police/fire departments, education, health care, and so on. Socialized medicine gives people a base level of care that's 1/2 the cost of what we pay here in the US. Capitalist health care gives us TV advertisements pitching the latest/greatest cholesterol drug in the hopes that we go in and demand it from our doctor...
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
Oh, and stinkle, that fox new's article misses a huge huge huge FACT. The FACT is the government DOES in fact owe us something. See we pay these things call taxes, and there's an agreement we have with the government, we pay taxes, and they provide services.

Gotta love the "**** the poor" mentality
 
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$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
1) Capitalism- you own big pharma who makes 15 different aids drugs, that all get taken by the same person. Every pill they take is more profit in your hands, remember profit is the motive here, not taking care of people, capitalism rewards PROFIT, not morality. You, as the CEO of big pharma stand to make several hundred grand off every single aids patient. Where as if you cure it, you get paid out 1 treatment till the disease is gone, then that source of profit is now GONE, and you have actually hurt yourself helping people.

2) socialism- you just got elected to head of the healthcare administration, and you want to get re elected. So you write a bill to fund the cure for AIDS. So in this situation it's a win win win win win, across the board. 1) you just got re-elected 2) no more people dieing from aids and 3) you now saved tax payers over 10,000$ per year per AIDS patient on drugs
so you posit that socialism is based upon morality? how moral are the motivations of hunger for power & self-servitude (re-election), arrogance (no more AIDS deaths), and vanity (attention whore cured teh aids)? but hey, at least they're not rich, which we all know is equal to buggering a schoolbus full of retarded paraplegic nuns just before setting them alight with a koran & pushing them over a cliff to land on the roof of a lesbian kitten rescue on the edge of a wetland that supplies the exclusive diet of blind hispanic river otters. on the sabbath.

in the early 90's, aids was a death sentence. today, it is manageable & chronic in those areas where capitalism has been permitted to thrive unabated.

what has socialized medicine done for aids, apart from being a distributor for technology borne out of "greedy capitalism"?

tell me, please.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Socialism can give you the most value, or cheapest product.

Capitalism can give you the *best* product at whatever price the market will bear.

This is true in police/fire departments, education, health care, and so on. Socialized medicine gives people a base level of care that's 1/2 the cost of what we pay here in the US. Capitalist health care gives us TV advertisements pitching the latest/greatest cholesterol drug in the hopes that we go in and demand it from our doctor...
sadly, true

part 2 should play well to this crowd:

 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Oh, and stinkle, that fox new's article misses a huge huge huge FACT. The FACT is the government DOES in fact owe us something. See we pay these things call taxes, and there's an agreement we have with the government, we pay taxes, and they provide services.

Gotta love the "**** the poor" mentality
Actually, I'd expand that last comment to "**** anyone who's not me" mentality. People today want to get back more than they put in, always, in every case, from every single government program. There is no compassion, no "good of society", just "what's in it for me?" The middle class doesn't want to pay into social programs like welfare or unemployment since they never expect to need them. The rich don't want to pay into Social Security or Medicare since they'll end up putting in more than they can take out. Even the poor in this country are ready to stop government programs for the poor if they're not specifically benefiting (see: Headstart).

$tinkle - I'm starting to wonder whether your flashes of brilliance are more a case of "a stopped clock is right twice a day" as your inane and rambling posts are more a case of having a talking point and looking for a nail as opposed to any worthwhile dialogue. When Mooshoo's arguments look sane, rational and coherent compared to yours it's obvious that you're really just grasping at straws here.