[Kanye West]

I think Nag's post was probably one of the LEAST irritating on here. I think he knows the difference but is just pointing out the aesthetic similarity. Get over it.

Yeah if you have the frame in front of you and can measure with proper tools, that Linkage program is perfectly accurate. There's nothing really THAT complicated going on there with any of the DW stuff, and no magic leverage curve that's hidden 1mm away from anything else that nobody has ever figured out, despite what he might keep chanting.

 

[P.T.W]

I think Nag's post was probably one of the LEAST irritating on here. I think he knows the difference but is just pointing out the aesthetic similarity. Get over it.

Think of it as the straw that broke the cammels backbut i did say "posts like yours"
I also think most of us here are clever enough to associate the asthetics of one bike with another with out every tom dick an harry having to point it out.
oh an im fully over it

i agree with ya 2nd comment tho...gimme your frame an a trammel bar an ill be able to measure it up to be just as accurate if not more so than most manufacturers tolerances allow

 

[ZenkiGarage]

It makes me cry to see people comparing bikes with that Linkage program. As you've pointed out, unless someone measured the bike with a CMM, there is NO WAY THAT THE INFORMATION IN THE PROGRAM IS ACCURATE.

Give me a break!

There's nothing really THAT complicated going on there with any of the DW stuff, and no magic leverage curve that's hidden 1mm away from anything else that nobody has ever figured out, despite what he might keep chanting.

Exactly... A couple gauge pins, and a caliper and you can have it figured out pretty quick. We hardly ever use our CMM and its with much more complicated layouts/parts than any bike component.

 

[iridebikes]

There's nothing really THAT complicated going on there with any of the DW stuff, and no magic leverage curve that's hidden 1mm away from anything else that nobody has ever figured out, despite what he might keep chanting.

Then why is it that there are so many copies of bikes that look so similar that ride so badly in comparison to the one that's being copied? M1, SGS, Big Hit, Norco... All the same design and only a few mills off in pivot location right? Though they don't ride the same and there are some of those bikes that don't ride good at all.

The same can be said about suspension setup too. Why do you think Fox is leading the pack when it comes to suspension tunability? It's all about the details and the art of perfecting current technology.

When it comes down to it it can and does make a difference when designing high end suspension designs. I've built a few bikes and yes, millimeters have a big effect on the ride and feel of the bikes.

Having built several Revolts so far I can say that it is a very well thought out design and is the best bike I have ever ridden.

 

[P.T.W]

The same can be said about suspension setup too. Why do you think Fox is leading the pack when it comes to suspension tunability? It's all about the details and the art of perfecting current technology.

I kinda agree with you that millimeters can make a big differance(esp with short links)just like a degree here an there can make or break a bike, but i wouldnt call Fox market leaders at the mo...esp when it comes to tunability,more like their playing catchup(allways have)

oh but when they do tend to catch up,as they will with their new shock. Im sure they will be up with or better than the current leaders

 

[ZenkiGarage]

All the same design and only a few mills off in pivot location right?. Though they don't ride the same and there are some of those bikes that don't ride good at all.

A few mils is a huge difference. I think he was getting after the fact that DW said the only way to figure it out is with a CMM which is complete horse ****.
Also there is more to a good riding bike than copying pivot location.

 

[P.T.W]

A few mils is a huge difference. I think he was getting after the fact that DW said the only way to figure it out is with a CMM which is complete horse ****.
Also there is more to a good riding bike than copying pivot location.

Shhhhhhhhh dont say the copy word on a thread thats releated to DW
But yeah geometry etc has hoooooge part

 

[ZenkiGarage]

Dont get me wrong, i dig the revolt! Simplistic, real tubes, not a hydroformed catastrophy. I like everything about it. I was just stating that comment was a little over the top. Its basic math, not witch craft.

 

[verticult]

yeah i was beginning to wonder where they are getting the money for all these riders from... does someone at EVIL have a rich uncle?

as I understand, Evil is a marketing company that imports products or sells items produced elsewhere. Cannondale was a manufacturer. Manufacturers bare the burdon of supporting a plant etc as well as related marketing departments. Marketing companies have the burdon of unloading a specific quanitity of product and are unable to alter products when problems exist. Overseas manufacturers seem very willing to supply products in huge quantities with favorable terms so may be it's a bit easier to get started.

My guess is that Evil is expecting a few containers of product and want to create a real demand. The internet provides a seemingly endless supply of people with needs and if you are willing to stage these "frenzies" those customers are there for the taking.

I personally prefer to make a few bikes and go to the races and sell them. simple and perhaps less stressful. I think having a good quanitity of inexpensive bikes grows the market and many riders move up at some point so it all works out.

 

[P.T.W]

Zenki seems you an I are on the same page here

Verticult...what are you on about??? Evil is a bike frame company pure an simple,most bike companys apart from a few giants an most small "boutiqe" brands(like yours,it seems) outsource all of their frame fabrication(as far as i know)and im sure evil can make changes to THEIR products...as they designed them an are simply getting them made elewhere.Seems you think theyve orderd some "catalogue" frames???
An your post is irelevent to LMC's question about where Evil get all their money from....from what i've read an have been told, they have a investor or investors from outside the industry who are putting funds into a company fronted buy three of the most respected an clued up people in the bike/dh industry

 

[Bike Whore]

i think the bike looks great, i suppose it will ride amazing aswell.

But the Sunday was released to soon and DW's link was machined wrong and made contact with the shock as it went through it's travel bending pins and damaging the shock body.

We were offered poor fix after poor fix then an upgrade to finally fix it for $$$

Fingers crossed the Revolt will have no poor design issues when it hit's the shop floors.

 

[Udi]

Um what? I've had 07-09 frames with no such issue, using multiple shocks (as long as you used the right link for your shock - there are different links for 5th, DHX, Vivid, BOS, etc). That's the first I've heard of that so maybe you had the wrong link. Either that or you got a one-off bad link which is weird.

 

[Bike Whore]

Um what? I've had 07-09 frames with no such issue, using multiple shocks (as long as you used the right link for your shock - there are different links for 5th, DHX, Vivid, BOS, etc). That's the first I've heard of that so maybe you had the wrong link. Either that or you got a one-off bad link which is weird.

it was the 1st gen Sunday with a 5th (as it came out of the box) new links were sent out (they had been filed out to bypass the shock body) which still didn't work, i had to file out a further 5mm for it to work. This is different from the play that came on all the 1st gen frames.

Then we were offered the red link as an upgrade for $$$ rather then a replacement to fix the problem.

I'm just hoping there is more time spent on the Revolt getting things right before it hit the market - 1st gen bikes give me the ****s

A lot of frame manufactures release their bikes too early on the market and leave poor old consumer wondering why.

 

[Udi]

Ah right. I guess I was smart and waited for 3rd gen with the F7 links. Unfortunately pretty much every frame out there has first-gen issues whether you like it or not, I've owned DH bikes from at least 5 different manufacturers and in each case the first-gen frame has had bugs that were fixed later. Not exactly ideal but unfortunately it's the reality of the situation. I guess what sets a manufacturer apart is how they deal with it.

 

[Kanye West]

Then why is it that there are so many copies of bikes that look so similar that ride so badly in comparison to the one that's being copied? M1, SGS, Big Hit, Norco... All the same design and only a few mills off in pivot location right? Though they don't ride the same and there are some of those bikes that don't ride good at all.

If you think any one of those is just a few mm off the original M1 layout you should either bust out a dial caliper or get your eyes checked.

Sometimes with the dual link bikes (like the Giant) they are just far enough away from their competitors systems than they can avoid the patent laws.

Granted a lot of the bikes above in the thread were WAY the hell off, but to say that it's not possible to obtain measurements off a frame that is in front of you and use that program to generate a correct curve is pretty short-sighted.

 

[S.K.C.]

But the Sunday was released to soon and DW's link was machined wrong and made contact with the shock as it went through it's travel bending pins and damaging the shock body.

We were offered poor fix after poor fix then an upgrade to finally fix it for $$$

Fingers crossed the Revolt will have no poor design issues when it hit's the shop floors.

Actually there were at least 3 years of testing before the Sunday went into production. The release was fine - the bike was well designed, BUT there were some issues with outsourced manufacturing/fabrication. I know which vendor I.H. used for the first year bikes that had issues. Eventually that vendor was phased out (I believe) and most of those issues were resolved.

It sucks that the warranty fixes didn't work and that you had to pay for an upgrade to take care of the problem. I'd be pissed too.

 

[Nagaredama]

Gawd Nagaredama posts like your's iratate me...an yes the Revolt resembles the Session(Giant dhcomp,Sunn Radical) etc etc its all been said beforelthumbsdown:

These days EVERYTHING can be compared to something else...nothing (very very little)is truely new an original

Yes anything can be compared to something else. You have to admit that from a design stand point the Session 10 and Revolt look strikingly similar. Down tube, pierce in the seat tube for the shock, and swing arm look nearly identical. It wasn't until I saw the non-drive side shot that I really saw it.

All the Evil fanboys will have to deal with the comments.

 

[P.T.W]

So does a Comencial
So does a Morewood
So does a Sunn
So does a Tomac
etc etc.....Whats your point????

You should go on a motorcross forum an point how much someones brand new Honda CR250F looks like a Suzuki

 

[klunky]

Do you think on road bike forums that people complain that the new Trek madone looks like a copy of the latest Giant TCR which is a copy of a cervelo soloist which is a copy of the spesh roubaix which is a copy of the cannondale synapse?

 

[P.T.W]

Do you think on road bike forums that people complain that the new Trek madone looks like a copy of the latest Giant TCR which is a copy of a cervelo soloist which is a copy of the spesh roubaix which is a copy of the cannondale synapse?

Dont think Naga's complaining....just making a blindly obvious observation...hey look a bike..its got two wheels an its white OMG

Love ya post tho

 

[iridebikes]

I love forums... it is quite amusing to me to see all the people who think they know what they are talking about tear apart things such as the new Revolt. But such is life. Every new product will be torn apart by people who think they can do better... SO DO IT!!! shut up and create a product without flaws. If it's so easy to call out the flaws of a product, then put your "knowledge" to use and create or help produce a new product that's the turning-point for bikes

 

[jonKranked]

Do you think on road bike forums that people complain that the new Trek madone looks like a copy of the latest Giant TCR which is a copy of a cervelo soloist which is a copy of the spesh roubaix which is a copy of the cannondale synapse?

No, they're too busy jacking off to their bikes on scales after installing new titanium cable crimps.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

man a legit thread turned into a headache...

EVIL guys, keep up the good work stuff is looking great, even the fixie...Still eagerly awaiting the shorter travel bikes as I am in the market for a 5-6 trail bike.

So will you be honoring existing dealers agreements with the previous EVIL ownership? Reason I ask is our shop was a dealer, how will that work?

 

[seth505]

funny there are tons of people in here who are internet nerds trying to prove evil and/or dw wrong as if their life depends on it...also complaining about what type of company Evil is...guess what you are the ones who made this thread 29 pages long so look in the mirror and laugh at yourselves.

 

[S.K.C.]

man a legit thread turned into a headache...

EVIL guys, keep up the good work stuff is looking great, even the fixie...

Amen.

 

[Kanye West]

You cannot deny that there is a HELL of a lot more variation in aesthetics and lines of a frame on a DH bike than a road bike and on a MX bike.

He made an observation. Suck it up princess.

 

[General Lee]

You cannot deny that there is a HELL of a lot more variation in aesthetics and lines of a frame on a DH bike than a road bike and on a MX bike.

He made an observation. Suck it up princess.

Sure, but what I find hard to understand is how many people seem to lump similar aesthetics and performance of 2 bikes together as if they are somehow related.

He's entiteled to his observation, and I'm entitled to call it useless

 

[IH8Rice]

Sure, but what I find hard to understand is how many people seem to lump similar aesthetics and performance of 2 bikes together as if they are somehow related.

He's entiteled to his observation, and I'm entitled to call it useless

your comment is similar to what others have said....but i still lol'd on myself.

 

[Kanye West]

Nobody said anything about performance.

About 95% of what you read on here is completely useless.....maybe even more. And you are entitled to all of it.

 

[dw]

For all of you guys who want to measure up some frames and then "analyze" them, give it a try by measuring pivot to pivot, and then by CMM. I have done it both ways, and the CMM is B Y F A R the fastest and most accurate way to get the job done. I also had a $5K custom measuring jig made, which I'm pretty sure that none of you have, and even that, while faster and more accurate than measuring point to point, still is fallible. My opinion as someone who has done this multiple ways. Believe it or not.

 

[dw]

I think Nag's post was probably one of the LEAST irritating on here. I think he knows the difference but is just pointing out the aesthetic similarity. Get over it.

Yeah if you have the frame in front of you and can measure with proper tools, that Linkage program is perfectly accurate. There's nothing really THAT complicated going on there with any of the DW stuff, and no magic leverage curve that's hidden 1mm away from anything else that nobody has ever figured out, despite what he might keep chanting.

I'm guessing that you're new here, or have never read a word I've written on this forum or anywhere else. I make this guess, because it seems to me that you are suggesting that somehow I am putting words out there that I can't and haven't backed up with mathematics, and real world testing. All I'm trying to do is make a better bike for you to ride and enjoy. You want to tear me down for that? Fine, it's OK, I don't have to understand it, but I accept it. Just know that I am still going to keep working on new and better things that hopefully will make your riding experience better. That's what I do, and what I like to do. I don't see a lot wrong with that.

 

[RUFUS]

The rest of us love you Dave.

 

[tk1085]

well said

 

[S.K.C.]

Dave - shoot me a PM if you could - wanted to chat a bit.

 

[ZenkiGarage]

For all of you guys who want to measure up some frames and then "analyze" them, give it a try by measuring pivot to pivot, and then by CMM. I have done it both ways, and the CMM is B Y F A R the fastest and most accurate way to get the job done. I also had a $5K custom measuring jig made, which I'm pretty sure that none of you have, and even that, while faster and more accurate than measuring point to point, still is fallible. My opinion as someone who has done this multiple ways. Believe it or not.

CMM: faster? yes. More accurate. Yes. Necessary to analyze a suspension design? Not at all. I can EASILY get within a half thou with hand tools. Do you need to be that accurate to analyze a suspension design? Still a big NO. This **** isnt rocket science. Its a ****ing bike. Now, with that said, Its a great design, well executed, and the bike itself is one of the best looking right now and im sure will ride just as good as it looks. It still can be analyized fairly easily, regardless of what you want people to think.

 

[davetrump]

For all of you guys who want to measure up some frames and then "analyze" them, give it a try by measuring pivot to pivot, and then by CMM. I have done it both ways, and the CMM is B Y F A R the fastest and most accurate way to get the job done. I also had a $5K custom measuring jig made, which I'm pretty sure that none of you have, and even that, while faster and more accurate than measuring point to point, still is fallible. My opinion as someone who has done this multiple ways. Believe it or not.

yeah yeah... i just taped a sheet of graph paper to my laptop screen and was able to figure out all of this out for about 4 cents. luckily i had a no.2 pencil laying around or it could have been upwards of 25 cents or more.

and those evil bikes look AWESOME

 

[dw]

You right about that program and how people misinterpret the results. The option in that program of using a picture to determine the geometry is absolutly ridiculous especially considering the accuracy required when people are debating a 3.1:1 verses a 3:1 ratio, ect.

However, you can measure a frame accurately without a CMM if you have basic layout knowledge, passed 10th grade geometry and still remember it and have some decent measuring equipment. That said, a CMM is way faster.

Oh heck yeah Chris, it can be done, it just takes forever, and isn't easy to get perfectly accurate results without a good sized surface plate, and the necessary measuring and machine tools to get everything parallel etc.. Let's face it, not every person using the "linkage" program has access to either a CMM or a set of 14 inch Mitutoyos, let alone a full gage pin set, or a lathe to make the necessary parts. You really need to know what you are doing. Most engineers that I know and have worked with don't even have a clue about how to inspect a part, let alone most laymen.

Just to illustrate some of the measuring challenges that I've faced over the years; How do you deal with bearing slop? I suggest pulling the bearings out of the frame and pressing the correct sized pins in. After all, it's not like the dimensions are nice round numbers, at least not on most of the bikes I work on. Physics and the natural world doesn't work on round numbers either. The dimensions are what the need to be to work. Most people measuring though, will round to the nearest round number because that's what "it's probably supposed to be". Stack up a few tolerance issues, maybe the calipers weren't exactly perpendicular to the bores, and a couple "supposed to be's" and the final dimensions can get less than accurate in a lot of cases. There is just so much fixturing of tooling and the bike together that can go wrong.

The way that I see it is that any way you slice it, its not a simple thing to measure a bike, and most guys like us will agree that using a picture is not an accurate method. Reasonably OK for single pivots, not good for linkage bikes. In my opinion of course.

 

[dw]

CMM: faster? yes. More accurate. Yes. Necessary to analyze a suspension design? Not at all. I can EASILY get within a half thou with hand tools. Do you need to be that accurate to analyze a suspension design? Still a big NO. This **** isnt rocket science. Its a ****ing bike. Now, with that said, Its a great design, well executed, and the bike itself is one of the best looking right now and im sure will ride just as good as it looks. It still can be analyized fairly easily, regardless of what you want people to think.

You, my fellow RideMonkey guy, are not the average 15 year old typing from his parent's basement...

 

[IH8Rice]

I also had a $5K custom measuring jig made, which I'm pretty sure that none of you have, and even that, while faster and more accurate than measuring point to point, still is fallible.

gee why dont you rub it in.

 

[dropmachine]

Dave you suck. I build bikes out of lego all the time, and they are teh awesome. If i had more legos I would make them bigger and I bet they would be even more awesome, except if it fell over and peices broke off.

Lucky for you I odn't have more legos...