[Slater]

It is not for cost reasons but for production capabilities such as forged parts and hydro formed tubes. You can do a more complex frame structure at a similar price.

This is not true. It is absolutely for cost reasons. ALL of the manufacturing techniques used in any bike frame are readily available in the USA. This idea that Taiwan is used because they just have everything set up already and can make bikes better is BS propogated by the companies using overseas manufacturing. Keep in mind that virtually every part of most modern DH frames requires one-off custom tooling to manufacture. All of these molds and tools have to be manufactured before you can make the first frame, regardless of where it is made. How else are they going to justify charging you more than some US made frames when everyone knows its cheaper to make them overseas?

 

[blackohio]

This is not true. It is absolutely for cost reasons. ALL of the manufacturing techniques used in any bike frame are readily available in the USA. This idea that Taiwan is used because they just have everything set up already and can make bikes better is BS propogated by the companies using overseas manufacturing. Keep in mind that virtually every part of most modern DH frames requires one-off custom tooling to manufacture. All of these molds and tools have to be manufactured before you can make the first frame, regardless of where it is made. How else are they going to justify charging you more than some US made frames when everyone knows its cheaper to make them overseas?

And name several large bike manufacturers that can do this in the states. they are virtually non-existant. Of course overall cost factors into the decision to produce a bike here or there. but to say that some company is doing it solely to keep cost down is a bit black and white.

There are various aluminum tubings readily available there that arent as easily sourced here. So many factors involved that its simply not just cost.

 

[Slater]

And name several large bike manufacturers that can do this in the states. they are virtually non-existant. Of course overall cost factors into the decision to produce a bike here or there. but to say that some company is doing it solely to keep cost down is a bit black and white.

There are various aluminum tubings readily available there that arent as easily sourced here. So many factors involved that its simply not just cost.

Just because you as a bike company don't have the tooling to hydroform or stamp or forge or cast your own parts doesn't mean there is nobody who you could contract with to make them. This happens all the time, in all types of industries. You really think every single part of a new TR450 or Legend is manufactured, welded, and heat treated inside one single factory?

 

[dh_newbie]

Just because you as a bike company don't have the tooling to hydroform or stamp or forge or cast your own parts doesn't mean there is nobody who you could contract with to make them. This happens all the time, in all types of industries. You really think every single part of a new TR450 or Legend is manufactured, welded, and heat treated inside one single factory?

Even some factory have these facilities at the states but does it mean it can product the quality frameset? I think the most important is how's the QC control, did the brand know serious and have enough working instruction to the factory when their product in production!

I think EVIL & transition bike both do the great job at these level.

 

[Spahman]

And name several large bike manufacturers that can do this in the states. they are virtually non-existant. Of course overall cost factors into the decision to produce a bike here or there. but to say that some company is doing it solely to keep cost down is a bit black and white.

There are various aluminum tubings readily available there that arent as easily sourced here. So many factors involved that its simply not just cost.

Turner

 

[Brian HCM#1]

And name several large bike manufacturers that can do this in the states. they are virtually non-existant. Of course overall cost factors into the decision to produce a bike here or there. but to say that some company is doing it solely to keep cost down is a bit black and white.

There are various aluminum tubings readily available there that arent as easily sourced here. So many factors involved that its simply not just cost.

It's definitely to keep the costs down. I'm sure the materials are fairly comparable in cost, but you need to pay people to put them together. Do the math on paid wages & cost of living. A lot of these guys over seas are paying their employees $15-$20 a day (if that), where you're paying out that much an hour over here. My wife deals with product manufacturing in China, it's a HUGE difference in cost.

 

[IH8Rice]

It's definitely to keep the costs down. I'm sure the materials are fairly comparable in cost, but you need to pay people to put them together. Do the math on paid wages & cost of living. A lot of these guys over seas are paying their employees $15-$20 a day (if that), where you're paying out that much an hour over here. My wife deals with product manufacturing in China, it's a HUGE difference in cost.

yep. it all has to do with manufacturing cost. my last company builds products in Malaysia b/c they pay them in a day what the Japanese employees would make in a half hour.

 

[blackohio]

it's presumptuous as hell to assume that cost is the only drive to manufacture there. I never said cost wasnt a factor, but its not the sole factor.

 

[norbar]

It's definitely to keep the costs down. I'm sure the materials are fairly comparable in cost, but you need to pay people to put them together. Do the math on paid wages & cost of living. A lot of these guys over seas are paying their employees $15-$20 a day (if that), where you're paying out that much an hour over here. My wife deals with product manufacturing in China, it's a HUGE difference in cost.

I'm not sure about exact differance but the price of making a bike in mainland china and in taiwan is seriously different. That's why some lower end companies make some bikes in china and some in tw.


Also if the frames are very well put together and look quality (ie all the frames build at pacyfic like evil,canfield , banshee) why care if they are made in the us, taiwan or the moon? It's good for marketing but that's all. The only real differance I see is that by the time you build your us made bike they'll already discontinue it, replace the old model and sell all the remaining ones for nothing so your resale value will be crap

 

[IH8Rice]

Also if the frames are very well put together and look quality (ie all the frames build at pacyfic like evil,canfield , banshee) why care if they are made in the us, taiwan or the moon? It's good for marketing but that's all.

because maybe someone in American would put loctite on said link bolts?

 

[blackohio]

yeah, because americans have such a prestigious track record for assembling things.

 

[Pepper Brooks]

because maybe someone in American would put loctite on said link bolts?

Maybe someone riding in America should check his bolts

 

[IH8Rice]

yeah, because americans have such a prestigious track record for assembling things.

never had a issue from any of my American bikes...all 8 of them

Maybe someone riding in America should check his bolts

i did before the ride. red loctite wouldnt hold it in either

 

[dropmachine]

I wasn't intended to bring up the US vs TW argument in terms of quality, as I believe both produce excellent products. I'm more curious why a frame that comes out of TW costs as much as a US made one. Seems kind of like the short end of the stick, ya know?

Maybe its down to limited numbers or something. But that doesn't explain why Rotec can get frames made in the US and still be cheaper...

 

[blackohio]

It's also hard to compare a start-up company to those established with solid revenue streams. I'd hate to think what the r&d, tooling etc is when you arent making money.

Could that be a viable reason as well? possibly. Political factors aside, they have a business, which has investors and probably loans. Once the product line is established, parts have begun production im sure investors want to see a return on their goods and I can betcha Kevin and gabe want to still be doing this 6 months down the road.

Would making parts here in the US make that unfeasible? Probably not, but would it limit revenue, most certainly. Anyone know what average tooling costs for a frame like this are here as opposed to there?

 

[Slater]

Hate to be cynical but certain companies know that they can demand a higher price cause their marketing is on point, and make the extra money doing so. There is no logical justification as far as manufacturing.

 

[Jason4]

Take a look at how many parts on the Revolt are purpose built. From talking to Kevin my understanding is that the only piece of hardware on the entire bike that can be bought out of a catalog is the hardware on the headtube. The machined delta link is custom, the aluminum I-links are custom, the shoulder bolts are custom, the shock tunnel is cast or forged and required a die/form, every tube is hydroformed instead of straight. Evil went all out on making their flagship bike special.

The TR450 is a nice bike and everytime I doubt it Sam shows up to let me know that I'm wrong so I don't try any more. As others have said in this thread: both bikes will get you down the hill in a satisfactory fashion.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

I'm not sure about exact differance but the price of making a bike in mainland china and in taiwan is seriously different. That's why some lower end companies make some bikes in china and some in tw.


Also if the frames are very well put together and look quality (ie all the frames build at pacyfic like evil,canfield , banshee) why care if they are made in the us, taiwan or the moon? It's good for marketing but that's all. The only real differance I see is that by the time you build your us made bike they'll already discontinue it, replace the old model and sell all the remaining ones for nothing so your resale value will be crap

I was using China as an example. I'm not sure how the economy is in Poland, but here in the US a lot of manufactures take there business overseas because it's cheaper to manufacture. For us Americans, if you're buying from an American company, it's good to have the product originate from here.

I think the point dropmachine is trying to make is.... If American companies are going overseas to manufacture their frames, how come they are charging as much as the America made frames. They aren't passing down the savings to the consumers.

 

[Pepper Brooks]

Don't forget that America isn't the only consumer of DH bikes. I don't have any clue, but I'd imagine that there are probally some sort of import taxes to various countries. It's probally more expensive to ship from the US (instead of drop shipping from taiwan) to the international distributors.

I bet Evil and Transition probally have buisness plans that are much more extensive than selling to just the US. A bike made in America probally isn't a major selling point in the UK, or Canada, or Australia, etc...

 

[zdubyadubya]

I wasn't intended to bring up the US vs TW argument in terms of quality, as I believe both produce excellent products. I'm more curious why a frame that comes out of TW costs as much as a US made one. Seems kind of like the short end of the stick, ya know?

Maybe its down to limited numbers or something. But that doesn't explain why Rotec can get frames made in the US and still be cheaper...

Case in point... Giant Glory. Made in TW frame and at an appropriate cost. And a kick-a$$ ride to boot! I think other companies are just setting their prices based on the market level and charging what everybody else is. Sorta a bandwagon approach. I mean the top end Demo approached like $8,000 there for a little while. Now it seems like prices are coming back down a little, but good god! I really applaud Giant for taking that step forward to push the industry to make better bikes at lower prices.

 

[WBC]

Don't forget that America isn't the only consumer of DH bikes. I don't have any clue, but I'd imagine that there are probally some sort of import taxes to various countries. It's probally more expensive to ship from the US (instead of drop shipping from taiwan) to the international distributors.

I bet Evil and Transition probally have buisness plans that are much more extensive than selling to just the US. A bike made in America probally isn't a major selling point in the UK, or Canada, or Australia, etc...

A little off-topic, and this is a relatively insignificant cost driver compared to varying labor, material, environmental, etc costs associated with production.

With all drayage, forwarder fees, containerization fees, the steamship charges, etc you're looking as low as $2000 one time, and $700 in high volume to send a 20' container from China to the US. A 20' container can fit ~200 (+/- 5u) frame boxes. Transport in reasonable quantities is very cheap and not a significant cost driver.

You have to look at respective free-trade areas to determine if it is cheaper to have the main value-added in the US vs TW. Meaning that if the frame is going to Canada or Australia, you can save 7-10% (Can't remember anymore), by having the main value-added in the US because of Nafta laws - likewise if you were shipping to ex. Chile or Singapore. Because the US has a FTA with Canada and Australia, Australians and Canadians may have a vested interest in the origin of the main value-added. Considering the exchange rates between Canada and Australia are very similar, we can make an educated assumption that Intenses cost significantly more in Australia because someone in the supply chain to the consumer has their hands deep in the cookie jar.

Beyond the scope of smaller botique builders, there are also methods of supply chain mgmt to fly through a route of FTA's to escape many tariffs. Ex. would be an American company with offices in the countries along the route of the product. The company might receive components from China, welding in Mexico, packaging and containerization of welded parts in the US and then shipping to Singapore for "specialty distribution" (to increase its "value"). Then assemble in Malaysia with a final destination of Pakistan. The US does not have a Free Trade Agreement with Pakistan, but many US companies achieve large cost savings working a method like this. Ex. Alcoa setting up offices in Singapore to sell aluminum to China tariff free at the same price they would sell it if coming from the US office (with included tariffs), pocketing the amount that would be taken by the Chinese tariff.

 

[toodles]

we can make an educated assumption that Intenses cost significantly more in Australia because someone in the supply chain to the consumer has their hands deep in the cookie jar.

In Australia the RRP on the Evil Revolt is $4995 AUD with RC4.
However, they're openly listed at $3600 AUD

The TR450 is listed at $3500 AUD here.

A V-10 is listed at $4,100

A 951 is $4200
A M6 is $4500

 

[gemini2k]

Blah blah blah. If FTW can make top notch frames with insane amounts of welding and machining (ever seen a splinter?), lighter than most "race only" bikes, yet bombproof, and super small quantities, and custom paint jobs, and made in the USA, for under $2500. Really makes you wonder...

 

[IH8Rice]

Blah blah blah. If FTW can make top notch frames with insane amounts of welding and machining (ever seen a splinter?), lighter than most "race only" bikes, yet bombproof, and super small quantities, and custom paint jobs, and made in the USA, for under $2500. Really makes you wonder...

and im sure he isnt trying to make his business as large as Intense's or Transition or such. in bigger scale production, it makes more sense.

 

[WBC]

In Australia the RRP on the Evil Revolt is $4995 AUD with RC4.
However, they're openly listed at $3600 AUD

The TR450 is listed at $3500 AUD here.

A V-10 is listed at $4,100

A 951 is $4200
A M6 is $4500

Well AUS doesn't have a FTA with Taiwan, Evil prob doesn't have an office in AUS, and NZ and AUS are both well known for being quite protectionist.

I think the 951s go for the low to mid 3's in CAD. @ 3500 CAD = 3400 USD; 4200 AUS = $3800 USD.

That said, I really doubt the goods' origin plays much of a role in price differentials.

 

[gemini2k]

and im sure he isnt trying to make his business as large as Intense's or Transition or such. in bigger scale production, it makes more sense.

Still, the fact remains, his stuff is better and cheaper. WHY would you buy anything else?

 

[Sam B]

Take a look at how many parts on the Revolt are purpose built. From talking to Kevin my understanding is that the only piece of hardware on the entire bike that can be bought out of a catalog is the hardware on the headtube. The machined delta link is custom, the aluminum I-links are custom, the shoulder bolts are custom, the shock tunnel is cast or forged and required a die/form, every tube is hydroformed instead of straight. Evil went all out on making their flagship bike special.

The TR450 is a nice bike and everytime I doubt it Sam shows up to let me know that I'm wrong so I don't try any more. As others have said in this thread: both bikes will get you down the hill in a satisfactory fashion.

Hello! I saw Ross and Bobby riding DH the other day. Good to see Ross on a bike again...

 

[blackohio]

Still, the fact remains, his stuff is better and cheaper. WHY would you buy anything else?

How many recent world cup wins does he have under his belt designing frames? lighter, cheaper just not faster.

 

[gemini2k]

How many recent world cup wins does he have under his belt designing frames? lighter, cheaper just not faster.

Wow.....did you seriously just post that? I bet I should go out and buy whatever car won the latest nascar race so I can drive to work the fastest too.

I'm curious what babble you wrote before you edited it. Must've been gold.

 

[blackohio]

Yet you feel totally justified with some sense of moral superiority to come in here and essentially call anyone who wants something not made by Frank stupid. Please, dickhead just move on.

My edit, was I added "recent"

 

[blackohio]

I bet I should go out and buy whatever car won the latest nascar race so I can drive to work the fastest too.

that analogy right there is just ****ing stupid.

 

[buckoW]

Yeah that still doesnt' make sense though. Its not like the V10 or 951 are lacking in any sort of complicated shapes. Both have hydroformed stuff on them. As such, the question still remains as to why the Revolt is the same price as a locally made frame.

I'm just curious, not starting an arguement.

Just an example but both of those bikes have CNC'd parts to them. The big Taiwan factories are much better at doing forged parts than the US. Do you ever see any US made frames with forged parts? You are free to do more complicated designs in Taiwan. Why not work with the best factory you can?

 

[Transcend]

Case in point... Giant Glory. Made in TW frame and at an appropriate cost. And a kick-a$$ ride to boot! I think other companies are just setting their prices based on the market level and charging what everybody else is. Sorta a bandwagon approach. I mean the top end Demo approached like $8,000 there for a little while. Now it seems like prices are coming back down a little, but good god! I really applaud Giant for taking that step forward to push the industry to make better bikes at lower prices.

Using giant to compare to...well, anything, isn't a fair comparison. They own their factories and have the largest volume of pretty much any manufacturer when it comes to bikes, specifically high end ones.

Also, at this point I'd say that 90% of the stuff coming out of taiwan is BETTER than the bikes built in America. The "it's cheaper to go to taiwan" argument doesn't hold water anymore when the facilities are simply better for what is being done.

 

[norbar]

I was using China as an example. I'm not sure how the economy is in Poland, but here in the US a lot of manufactures take there business overseas because it's cheaper to manufacture. For us Americans, if you're buying from an American company, it's good to have the product originate from here.

I think the point dropmachine is trying to make is.... If American companies are going overseas to manufacture their frames, how come they are charging as much as the America made frames. They aren't passing down the savings to the consumers.

As long as they are better than the us ones why do we really care? Lapierre makes their bikes in taiwan and if you've seen one you know they are one of the best looking bikes currently in the market. About the quality I agree with Fraser. The better from home soil argument is still here only because people are stubborn and fall for marketing.

 

[fluider]

My view on this is rather pragmatic. If a company know they're going to sell X frames a year at maximum then they don't try to move their production overseas because the minimum volume of production to get the prize lower is let's say 10x. So they're staying at home and run marketing machine to make people buy those X frames. Then there're brands like Nicolai (you must know I have nothing against Carl Nicolai) who sell the burly industrial construction and appearance as their unique style. But I can see only economic reasons behind that.
I think that if Evil could sell 2x more frames they'd produce them and the unit price would be more competitive. Lapierre have become very popular and demanded in Europe so they're able to get low manufacturing prices. Then there are new Mondrakers, also made overseas, which are incredibly expensive IMO.

 

[norbar]

My view on this is rather pragmatic. If a company know they're going to sell X frames a year at maximum then they don't try to move their production overseas because the minimum volume of production to get the prize lower is let's say 10x. So they're staying at home and run marketing machine to make people buy those X frames. Then there're brands like Nicolai (you must know I have nothing against Carl Nicolai) who sell the burly industrial construction and appearance as their unique style. But I can see only economic reasons behind that.
I think that if Evil could sell 2x more frames they'd produce them and the unit price would be more competitive. Lapierre have become very popular and demanded in Europe so they're able to get low manufacturing prices. Then there are new Mondrakers, also made overseas, which are incredibly expensive IMO.

It's another way around with lapierre/mondraker prices here. Mondraker can be had for much less than the lapierre. If I remember correctly the sumum frame is around 2000euro around here.

 

[jonKranked]

Wow.....did you seriously just post that? I bet I should go out and buy whatever car won the latest nascar race so I can drive to work the fastest too.

But you can only make left hand turns on your way to work

 

[Brian HCM#1]

As long as they are better than the us ones why do we really care? Lapierre makes their bikes in taiwan and if you've seen one you know they are one of the best looking bikes currently in the market. About the quality I agree with Fraser. The better from home soil argument is still here only because people are stubborn and fall for marketing.

You're totally missing the point. It has nothing to do with "who's making the better bike". You have US based manufactures going overseas to have frames built, is it because the quality is better? No, it's because it's cheaper to manufacture, and have shipped back here. So then if it's costing less to make the frames overseas, relay the savings to the consumer.

Here in the US we've never been dependant on other countries for manufacturing, as some other countries may be. Maybe that's why it may be harder for you to understand. The unemployment rate is skyrocketing in manufacturing as everything is sent out of the country. Is it because of quality? Nope, it's WAY cheaper and the large manufactures save millions on production.

Look at tech support for computers, everything is going to India. Is it because they are easier to understand them on the phone, or is cheaper for the companies to outsource to save them millions of dollars? Saves them lots of money in salary & medical expenses, retirement etc.

 

[norbar]

You're totally missing the point. It has nothing to do with "who's making the better bike". You have US based manufactures going overseas to have frames built, is it because the quality is better? No, it's because it's cheaper to manufacture, and have shipped back here. So then if it's costing less to make the frames overseas, relay the savings to the consumer.

Here in the US we've never been dependant on other countries for manufacturing, as some other countries may be. Maybe that's why it may be harder for you to understand. The unemployment rate is skyrocketing in manufacturing as everything is sent out of the country. Is it because of quality? Nope, it's WAY cheaper and the large manufactures save millions on production.

Look at tech support for computers, everything is going to India. Is it because they are easier to understand them on the phone, or is cheaper for the companies to outsource to save them millions of dollars? Saves them lots of money in salary & medical expenses, retirement etc.

I understand it but from riders point of view it makes no differance. Also in case of support for comuters - a lot of it also moved to ireland The whole movement out of us is more the economic system problem than, a product/company problem. It won't be really my concern when I buy bikes and it won't make any product more desirable if the quality is equal. When it should be mine/yours concern is at the voting booth.

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

As a rider who rides for neither company and works at a shop that sells both, here's my input. As has been said, I think both bikes are good choices, but maybe not the best. Transition's track record with reliability isn't the best, but their new generation of bikes is certainly moving in the right direction. The Evil's have had issues as well, so neither is a sure thing in terms of reliability(nothing is really). Both companies are small, which means two things. 1. They will probably be pretty cool to you if call them and need something. 2. There's a good chance you will end up waiting for something you need, calling several times, ect. This is a generalization, but in my experience is the trade off you get with small companies. Sure if you buy a Demo 8 you can't call and bro down with someone, but you can bring in a 4 year old, haggard, cracked frame and get a brand new one out of their warranty stock in a week. So that's something to consider, there's something to be said for the big guys.

Take a really good look at the geometries and see which one sounds better to you. For example, I ride the Commencal Supreme DH, which is one of the only frames where I can get a 63 degree head angle without going excessively low on the bottom bracket (13.9). That plus the ability to run really long stays makes the frame my absolute favorite bike on the market. Little things like stay length can make a night and day difference in the way you feel about the bike. You may not have been riding long enough to have a really well developed idea of what you like, but let me just say that people tend to follow trends in geometry, and a super slack, super low bike is NOT right for everyone. The Evil and the TR450 both have nice moderate geo settings that should work for an intermediate rider.

Be really careful what advice you listen to on threads like this, most people will defend with their life whatever they happened to buy, whether they have tried the alternative or not. Based on your price range and the two frames you are looking at, I would throw the 951 into the mix as well. It's adjustable, low, slack, racy, and splits the difference in price between the two other frames. Intense has really gotten their act together in the last couple years, and has been great with CS and the new frames are rock solid. The new Glory and Demo 8 are both priced very well, and the previous generations of those bikes were probably the most reliable DH bikes on the market.