Quantcast

fluider

Monkey
Jun 25, 2008
440
9
Bratislava, Slovakia
For sure nobody in here cares for opinion of an 'stranger' ...

but this thread to me clearly shows how some of you have fallen into the marketing religion that brands all over the world had to built to support their sales. There isnt even a small respect for the way Evil chose to do its product development, some of you just want be fed by another customer-relationship and marketing fast-food.
This thread better be renamed to "Anti Evil manifesto".
 

Jason4

Monkey
Aug 27, 2008
338
0
Bellingham
I'm with S.K.C. and blackohio, the complaints that I have with Evil are minor and seem to be pretty typical for a start-up company (I know the name has been around for a while but it's still a start-up). My Revolt is still riding very well (I might be the only one) and the only reason that I would not get an Undead is that my Revolt is still going strong and is as much bike as I need.
 

S.K.C.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 28, 2005
4,097
10
Pa. / North Jersey
EVERY buisiness owner is passionate about what they do, its why they start the business. They are also in it for profit. Its useless saying hes "passionate" about it. Who cares.
Kevin has gutted this entire thing out because:

1) It's not in him to quit.
2) Believe it or not YES - it's from the heart. He's passionate about EVIL and wanting it to succeed.
3) He's been busting his ass to make EVIL a successful brand, and yes, that means making profit.


Beleive me when I say I am not ripping him apart. Trust me on this. When I rip into somebody, you'll know it. I am merely pointing out the lack of communication and farcical delay in getting new frames is pretty sketchy.
It's difficult to update the world on internal issues a company is experiencing. For example, the fiasco with the frame fabricator for the Revolts was a total nightmare. But that is something between EVIL and the fabricator. As far as keeping people informed, Kev has been in touch with every Revolt owner who has a warranty frame coming their way.

Horse****. Anybody with a modicum of brainpower knows that all you have to do is post up random tidbits on your site and facebook, and everybody is happy. Don't just post up a picture of some magical unobtanium frame made of unicorn taints and carbonz thats been in "development" for two years. Post some news for future and potential customers so you don't like a deadbeat mountainbike dad dodging support payments.
Agreed - but we've been over this. There should have been updates to the main website, however what do you do when variables of the business model are in constant flux? The options: Do you post many updates, with information contradicting itself and confusing the public, OR Do you deal with the the constantly changing situation and adapt the business while keeping the insanity and uncertainty private until the situation stabilizes?

Well if they got a pretty website, that changes everything...
It was programmed by Diora Baird while she rode nude on the back of a luckdragon through enchanted forests of Endor.


They chose the original fabricator no doubt due to their ability for making frames.
They did.

Those bikes sucked.
Remember that part about "variables of the business model ... in constant flux"? This is one of them. If you are a large company, and if after production begins, you discover that a large percentage of your DH frames have issues, this is a big problem. If you are a small, brand new start-up company, this is usually fatal.

Now they are moving to a new material and fabricator without getting the first version correct.
I think there is a misconception here - the Revolt and the Undead are about as similar as a Lamborghini Murcielago and the new Aventador. They look kinda similar, but that's pretty much where it ends. One bike is Alu made by one manufacturer, and the other is CF made by a different manufacturer. The shape is the same, but the linkage has been changed, frame design has changed, and the entire fab/production process has been changed.


I think you mean 2 weeks.

Oh wait sorry thats delivery time.
Which illustrates my point exactly why it can be perilous to release a stream of updates when there is uncertainty and conditions are continually changing.
 
Last edited:

blackohio

Generous jaywalker
Mar 12, 2009
2,797
120
Hellafornia. Formerly stumptown.
Here's really all I care about. I had a revolt, it had issues. Kevin said send it back. No more Revolts, Kevin offered Undeads up for warranty claims.

This issues kevin faced could have easily killed the business, thankfully it didn't. Thankfully kevin is doing what so many people wouldn't. I know it sucks for people who don't have other bikes, can't afford other bikes. Much the same way it sucks for KEvin to be shelling out cash to save a company from sinking that hasn't been able to earn any income in at least a year. Most people would have long ago bounced.

So, from my standpoint as a customer of evil's, I really don't give two ****s what any of you other dudes think/say. At the end of the day i'll have a frame, on that I was stoked to ride in the Au version and one I'm going to be super excited about in CF. If all you professional industry men, want to think I'm an idiot. what-the-****-ever. It's not like i give a rats ass of your opinion at the end of the day.
 

rpet

Turbo Monkey
Jun 9, 2003
2,942
280
El Lay
It's difficult to update the world on internal issues a company is experiencing.
No it's not. There is this thing called the internet. It's pretty damn cheap. (Building and updating a marketing website is cheap too, but that's a secondary point.)

Mountain bike companies as diverse as Spooky, E.13 and Turner have shared internal processes via this medium for years.
 
you think with all the R&D, raw materials, and manufacturing upfront expenses involved in bring a CF dh frame to production, that Evil would really give those people with Revolt issues, a brand new CF frame, essentially for free.

i mean, what's the total unit run for the Undead? say 4000-5000 frames? how many folks out there with revolts were verbally 'promised' an Undead frame as replacement? 100? 200? i want to say that's a significant enough of a percentage that make a dent in profits.

unless something was written on paper, they're not obligated to give your replacement CF frame (which i would argue is an upgrade from the revolt) even if you were promised that over the phone. are people prepared to take them to court for a replacement?
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,554
488
Im over here now
i want to say that's a significant enough of a percentage that make a dent in profits.

unless something was written on paper, they're not obligated to give your replacement CF frame (which i would argue is an upgrade from the revolt) even if you were promised that over the phone. are people prepared to take them to court for a replacement?
giving them frames would be cheaper then lawsuit....but then again, i doubt anyone would actually follow through with one though :think:
 
giving them frames would be cheaper then lawsuit....but then again, i doubt anyone would actually follow through with one though :think:
exactly...

i'm just playing devils advocate here, but lets say you bought a 2010 (not sure when they first came out) Revolt for $3000, it broke halfway thru the season. From the back and forth with Evil, hamming and hawing, finally it's 6months later and they say sure we'll give you an Undead frame as replacement. you, being a dh riding addict, obviously scrimp and save and buy another dh frame to ride. It's now 2012. Sure, it's worthwhile to fire off an email or two asking for your replacement frame, but Evil can very well just blow you off. Are you then gonna take the time off from work? go down to your court house, file some papers and pay a fee for small claims court?

i don't think anyone would follow thru. it would make business sense for Evil to say f- it, especially if there is high demand for the Undead.
 

Jason4

Monkey
Aug 27, 2008
338
0
Bellingham
exactly...

i'm just playing devils advocate here, but lets say you bought a 2010 (not sure when they first came out) Revolt for $3000, it broke halfway thru the season. From the back and forth with Evil, hamming and hawing, finally it's 6months later and they say sure we'll give you an Undead frame as replacement. you, being a dh riding addict, obviously scrimp and save and buy another dh frame to ride. It's now 2012. Sure, it's worthwhile to fire off an email or two asking for your replacement frame, but Evil can very well just blow you off. Are you then gonna take the time off from work? go down to your court house, file some papers and pay a fee for small claims court?

i don't think anyone would follow thru. it would make business sense for Evil to say f- it, especially if there is high demand for the Undead.
Sure, it could happen but it hasn't yet. Just because that's how you would run a business doesn't indicate Kevin's business ethic. Why don't you hold off on the conjecture until there is something to back it up.
 

S.K.C.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 28, 2005
4,097
10
Pa. / North Jersey
Good Lord...

LOTS of wild speculation and supposition here:

you think with all the R&D, raw materials, and manufacturing upfront expenses involved in bring a CF dh frame to production, that Evil would really give those people with Revolt issues, a brand new CF frame, essentially for free.

i mean, what's the total unit run for the Undead? say 4000-5000 frames? how many folks out there with revolts were verbally 'promised' an Undead frame as replacement? 100? 200? i want to say that's a significant enough of a percentage that make a dent in profits.

unless something was written on paper, they're not obligated to give your replacement CF frame (which i would argue is an upgrade from the revolt) even if you were promised that over the phone. are people prepared to take them to court for a replacement?
exactly...
i'm just playing devils advocate here, but lets say you bought a 2010 (not sure when they first came out) Revolt for $3000, it broke halfway thru the season. From the back and forth with Evil, hamming and hawing, finally it's 6months later and they say sure we'll give you an Undead frame as replacement. you, being a dh riding addict, obviously scrimp and save and buy another dh frame to ride. It's now 2012. Sure, it's worthwhile to fire off an email or two asking for your replacement frame, but Evil can very well just blow you off. Are you then gonna take the time off from work? go down to your court house, file some papers and pay a fee for small claims court?

i don't think anyone would follow thru. it would make business sense for Evil to say f- it, especially if there is high demand for the Undead.
Some clarity:

"Original owners with a revolt within the 2 yr warranty will receive a new Undead frame w/o shock. If you are a second hand owner or out of your warranty period we will offer crash replacement pricing on an Undead."

"Warranty frames will be shipped in the order in which warranty claims were received"


Some Facts:

The MSRP of the Undead is not, I repeat NOT $3500.

The pricing sheets have not been released yet and are TBA.
 

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,923
10
Your face.
Hmm....so what if you bought it in 2010...and the frame doesn't come out till the end of 2012 when your warranty expires....?

Just curious.


Also...right now the UNdead is UNavailable...so when it becomes available...does that make it the DEAD?



hmmmm
 

Raingauge

Monkey
Apr 3, 2008
692
0
Canadia
All long as the warranty claim was submitted before the two year warranty has expired you're getting a new frame.

Keep the flame train rolling tho.
 

ride

Monkey
Jan 11, 2005
471
0
i mean, what's the total unit run for the Undead? say 4000-5000 frames? how many folks out there with revolts were verbally 'promised' an Undead frame as replacement? 100? 200?
WTF? I know the marketing and media machines associated with Downhill run rampant, and make it seem like a much bigger market than it actually is... But this is so insanely incorrect. I'd be surprised if 200 of them are produced in total this year, and that is pushing it. For two reasons...

1. Carbon manufacturing is so different than alloy. There's no production line process of 15 frames getting welded simultaneously. One at a time baby, when each mold can cost $50,000 a piece x 3 size molds... do the math.
2. I'd guess most major manufacturers maybe sell 200 frames a year... Worldwide. I think I remember some record that IH broke with the Sunday. A thousand in one year or something, and I might even be tripping there... Whatever the quantity was it was leaps and bounds ahead of the 2nd most produced/sold dh frame.
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,565
345
Warsaw :/
WTF? I know the marketing and media machines associated with Downhill run rampant, and make it seem like a much bigger market than it actually is... But this is so insanely incorrect. I'd be surprised if 200 of them are produced in total this year, and that is pushing it. For two reasons...

1. Carbon manufacturing is so different than alloy. There's no production line process of 15 frames getting welded simultaneously. One at a time baby, when each mold can cost $50,000 a piece x 3 size molds... do the math.
2. I'd guess most major manufacturers maybe sell 200 frames a year... Worldwide. I think I remember some record that IH broke with the Sunday. A thousand in one year or something, and I might even be tripping there... Whatever the quantity was it was leaps and bounds ahead of the 2nd most produced/sold dh frame.
You are a bit wrong on the 2nd point. Canfield did runs of 50 or 100 jedis. Banshees initial run of Legends was 100 if I remember right (I think they had a 2nd run that year). Also YT complete sold 700+ in one day. IT was a great deal but still Major mfgs all get probably in the 500-1000 with their dh frames. I know of about 15-20 2011 demos in Poland and our Market is tiny. 200 Frames for them would make no sense.

On the other points you are correct.
 

Pegboy

Turbo Monkey
Jan 20, 2003
1,142
27
New Hamp-sha
You are a bit wrong on the 2nd point. Canfield did runs of 50 or 100 jedis. Banshees initial run of Legends was 100 if I remember right (I think they had a 2nd run that year). Also YT complete sold 700+ in one day. IT was a great deal but still Major mfgs all get probably in the 500-1000 with their dh frames. I know of about 15-20 2011 demos in Poland and our Market is tiny. 200 Frames for them would make no sense.

On the other points you are correct.
This is funny because you don't know who you are talking to. On top of that, you are using 3 MFG's and only one of your "facts" meet the figure that he gave. How do you know so much about so much?
 

blackohio

Generous jaywalker
Mar 12, 2009
2,797
120
Hellafornia. Formerly stumptown.
It's impossible to compare the likes of Spesh/Trek/Giant with Evil, Canfield, Banshee etc. None of those guys have the capital and distribution network to build the quantities those guys do. I think Canfield built 100 jedi's already and might be doing another 100 or so. But I'm not 100% on their quantities as I haven't fully discussed that with Lance/Chris.

I know Canfield are entirely self financed, Im not sure on Evil or Banshee.
 

ride

Monkey
Jan 11, 2005
471
0
WTF? I know the marketing and media machines associated with Downhill run rampant, and make it seem like a much bigger market than it actually is... But this is so insanely incorrect. I'd be surprised if 200 of them are produced in total this year, and that is pushing it. For two reasons...

1. Carbon manufacturing is so different than alloy. There's no production line process of 15 frames getting welded simultaneously. One at a time baby, when each mold can cost $50,000 a piece x 3 size molds... do the math.
2. I'd guess most major manufacturers maybe sell 200 frames a year... Worldwide. I think I remember some record that IH broke with the Sunday. A thousand in one year or something, and I might even be tripping there... Whatever the quantity was it was leaps and bounds ahead of the 2nd most produced/sold dh frame.
I'm going to add here that I've got nothing but respect for what Evil's done here. Can't comment on their communication, but it's killer to see they've got frames. God know's Kev's worked his ass off to make it happen. Kudos...
 

Deano

Monkey
Feb 14, 2011
233
0
if/when this comes through and the revolt owners get a free frame- if they are within the legal rights.

No matter what, thats good service- yes timeframe has been silly, at the end of the day if thats the way they do business, and support customers that way instead of folding and making a "new" brand etc. then hell its a small but good company.

I just hope the undead isnt as prone to breaking as the revolts were, once we hear good feedback from riders having put those tings through a season at whistler or the alps, then ill seriously consider getting one, as i still think its one of THE best looking frames out- and my personal skill level allows me to disregard pro racers opinions as im too slow for that to matter. All i gotta do is look good when going slow.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,045
0
Towing the party line.
It's impossible to compare the likes of Spesh/Trek/Giant with Evil, Canfield, Banshee etc. None of those guys have the capital and distribution network to build the quantities those guys do. I think Canfield built 100 jedi's already and might be doing another 100 or so. But I'm not 100% on their quantities as I haven't fully discussed that with Lance/Chris.

I know Canfield are entirely self financed, Im not sure on Evil or Banshee.
Banshee is owned by the factory that produced them now.
 

tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
893
15
This is funny because you don't know who you are talking to. On top of that, you are using 3 MFG's and only one of your "facts" meet the figure that he gave. How do you know so much about so much?
The YT-number is halfway correct. They sent us an update and put all emails in cc. 531 orders in one day so considering that yt is just covering europe and I see much more demos and sessions in bikeparks I think 200/year for a major like specialized or trek worldwide is a tad off.
 

S.K.C.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 28, 2005
4,097
10
Pa. / North Jersey
I’m sure Chill did not intend any harm, but there is a fine line between examining an opposing viewpoint to gain a better understanding of an argument and creating a false perception. Much like Camelot in Monty Python’s Holy Grail, sometimes: “The internet… it is a silly place”. It doesn’t take much for one person’s “Devil’s Advocate” (DA) theory to become: "Yeah... that kinda makes sense..." “SHE’S A WITCH!!! BURN HER!!! BURN THE WITCH!!!” In other words the speculation, or more to the point perception, becomes reality... and this is a best case scenario when all of the information is correct! If in the DA argument, there are inaccuracies, distortions, or stuff that is just flat out wrong whether unintentional or not, if no one with accurate information is present to refute this narrative then the DA point of view which became perception is now solidified and accepted as fact/reality.
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,565
345
Warsaw :/
This is funny because you don't know who you are talking to. On top of that, you are using 3 MFG's and only one of your "facts" meet the figure that he gave. How do you know so much about so much?
I don't see how that's an argument. I may not know him but I know the numbers. Jedi and Banshee numbers were posted by Chris or Lance and Keith respectively. Also the point was to one up the figures he gave. It was for comparative purposes. Am I not allow to pursue this argument because you have a thing for ride? I'm just curious and gave a few examples why I think the 200 number for major brands is not accurate. Take a chill pill.

@Canadmos just out of curiosity what problems do you have with your banshee frame?
 

Pete..

Monkey
Feb 11, 2009
450
0
Santa Cruz
I think he was saying Banshee is the same factory as Canfield. Evil might be(been) in the same factory as well. Pacific Cycles I believe.
Yeah, Evils were made by Pacific Cycles; well at least they were listed as "business partners" with Pacific Cycles in the past.
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
9,744
5,526
Canaderp
@Canadmos just out of curiosity what problems do you have with your banshee frame?
Nothing aligns properly when I put the frame back together from doing maitenance. I pretty much have to force the entire frame back together to get all of the bolt holes to line up.

The first 3rd of the travel feels very notchy too.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,995
23
Whistler
Nothing aligns properly when I put the frame back together from doing maitenance. I pretty much have to force the entire frame back together to get all of the bolt holes to line up.

The first 3rd of the travel feels very notchy too.
That's no good, have you spoken to Banshee about it? Depending on how bad the misalignment is, I would say the notchiness could well be your shock. Frame alignment has to be pretty bad before it actually makes bearings noticeably notchy, in my experience. And by "pretty bad" I mean several millimetres out - unless your frame has bushings rather than bearings, in which case even slight misalignment is a problem.

Edit: not that this excuses misaligned swingarms in the first place however!
 
Last edited:

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,565
345
Warsaw :/
I'm with Steve on that. Banshee guys are very helpfull when any issues arise. That said my legend is perfectly aligned.
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
9,744
5,526
Canaderp
I haven't contacted Banshee about it, yet. To be honest, I love the bike and when it is being ridden I don't notice anything negative happening with the bike. That said, the frame has no bearings, it is all bushings (which have their own issues as seen here). And for what its worth, when I force the frame into position to get the bolt holes to line up, there is a gap big enough to fit a couple quarters through.

The thing that sucks the most is that I just started college and had to sell my other bike to help pay for tuition. So if this bike fails or I have to send it in for warranty, I literally won't be able to ride a bike!
 

Optimax150

Monkey
Aug 1, 2008
208
0
Japan
Nothing aligns properly when I put the frame back together from doing maitenance. I pretty much have to force the entire frame back together to get all of the bolt holes to line up.

The first 3rd of the travel feels very notchy too.
What frame is it? A rune? I heard problems with the runes but none of the other frames. No problems with my Scythe.