FIrst time around wasnt them. First time around was Revolts and that was Pacific. Same peopel who f#cked Kevin over the Revolts.
Evil Undead
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- 2 months = 2 years 2 weeks =2 months baiters gonna bait buck me in the s buck the trend buck you! butthurt activate! consumerism could careless e-speculation! evil = blame the asians evil is evil evilhate=itsthenewblack expensive hobbies haters wanna hate hype machine rolling ih8rice wants new evil? its on the way new evil=no evil proto=2 yrs;production=?? suckers new evil≠old evil thetruth is dope trumpdoucheinvasion waiters gonna wait where is bradflyn
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Well folks - there she is! Congrats to Kev and EVIL for finally getting her out in the open after months of testing.
Been busy so I somehow missed the PB release, but Kev has really put a lot of time and effort into the Undead. All of the changes and new additions make sense and are a logical evolution of the frame.
If you guys liked that, you're gonna dig the trail bike...
Been busy so I somehow missed the PB release, but Kev has really put a lot of time and effort into the Undead. All of the changes and new additions make sense and are a logical evolution of the frame.
If you guys liked that, you're gonna dig the trail bike...
But the devil is in the detail.
IMO, the Revolt was ill conceived asthetically. The top tube and bottom slung gusset/strut looked cobbled together and chainstay design was fugly.
The carbon Undead has clean lines in both of the aforementioned places and has a cohesive nature to it. Even if they had made the Undead in alloy it would be head and shoulders over the Revolt from an asthetic perspective.
Shame they didn't build in internal cable housing. The way I see it, its a must for a clean looking bike. Otherwise its an outstanding looking bike.
Nice work and congratulations Evil.
The Revolt is dead. Long live the Undead.
Are you sure it was Pacific? They make a ton of other frames for companies like Banshee, Canfield, Niner, Bergamont and none of them have had such problems. My legend is perfectly aligned and the build quality is mint. Im suprised you claim it was pacific.
btw. I love the change. Now I really want to test ride an evil
It was Pacific. They messed Banshee around a LOT with the Legends too, fortunately nowhere near as badly as Evil copped it. The production frames became available in April last year, it would have been a year or more earlier if the factory had been making stuff when it said it would - I've been talking to Keith since late 2007 (yes that's almost four years ago now) for a MK1 frame that was originally meant to be available in Jan/Feb 08, got delivered in November 08, then a production frame that was meant to be available in July 09 originally, but didn't ship until April 2010! The Mk1s had some pretty messy parts on em, hell even the production Mk2s have had their (fortunately very minor) issues - the two faces of my upper shock mount weren't parallel (required filing out, fortunately easy to do and hasn't caused any issues) and the machining around the inside of that whole shock canoe is pretty messy. The bikes are great and the vast majority of the manufacturing on the Mk2 I'm impressed with (super nice welds and stuff) but they do have their issues for sure. Never had issues with alignment on either frame fortunately but the finish quality can definitely stand to be improved - so can the 10 month bulls**t period on Pacific's lead times.
I thought the move from summer 09 to spring 10 on the legends was due to Keiths idea to do some tweaks to the frame and the pacific delay was only a small part of it. Its good to now but at the same time it makes me worried. I always thought they are a quality factory and the issues make me think like they are a cheap chinease factory.
Perhaps (and that's my impression from what I've read on here at RM) they're as quality as much you pay attention to their quality of work. If you don't care, they don't care, too. Guys from Banshee spend long weeks in Taiwan before actual start of the production to make sure everything is as must be.
What the factory is capable of is only part of the equation.. there are so many other variables that come into play..
you can get a halleluja for "made with brain engaged"Can I get a hallelujah for made in TW!
Because non TW factories never **** upCan I get a hallelujah for made in TW!
but at the end of the day they're ultimately the ones that have to manufacture the frames to spec
Everybody makes mistakes, but if a bike company just has to go down to the shop and weld some more frames it wouldn't happen that customers have to wait forever to get warranty replacements.Because non TW factories never **** up
Yeah because its that simple. I walk 5m and weld my frames... Tubes also come from tw so what if a company is out of tubes? They still have to wait.Everybody makes mistakes, but if a bike company just has to go down to the shop and weld some more frames it wouldn't happen that customers have to wait forever to get warranty replacements.
also tw has a better access to technology(all in one place). Something that is getting harder and harder in yurp and us.
True, but at the same time it's naive to think that you can just Alibaba dot com a complex mechanical assembly like a downhill bike.
All in all, I don't think any party smells like roses after the issues that were encountered. I don't want to see anyone's business or livelihood fail and hopefully this group of folks that run this incarnation of Evil have learned from their mistakes. Personally, I try to stick with companies that have their hands a little more in the design and manufacturing of the bikes/components as it tends to minimize risks in instances like these.
So question...why are people so hard gay for the evil, but not nearly as moist over the devinci?
Second, integrated fork bumpers are nothing new. FTW had them on the Sinister R9.
Just curious as to why people are so hot and bothered by a bike that's similar to other things on the market but is brought by a company that essentially failed the first time around. Do we want this? Do we need it? Is the DH community that big?
Three points... a) evil is carbon, and carbon is sexy. b) i think the devinci is cool too. c) just because i drool over a bike aesthetically, doesn't mean i would buy one. in fact, for various reasons i would buy neither of the above mentioned bikes, even if they were offered to me at stupidly low prices.
I like them both too. I had a Revolt and to this day I like the way it rode better than any other DH bike I have had. So if the carbon shaves a good chunk of weight (which I have no doubt it will) and the ride quality is similar to the Revolt, then it will be a killer bike in my mind. I just recently got a new Wilson and I am really digging it, but I need to get more time on it to compare it to the other bikes I have had.
I am curious about zdubyadubya's last comment though. I can definitely understand the apprehension about the Evil based on their track record, but what makes you say that about the Devinci?
however, if the spec is not very well written you'll get a whole load of parts that "meet spec" but are useless to (and/or buck) the end user
oh i absolutely agree, but given who was involved designing the bike, i doubt that was the case.
of course. but at the end of the day, you're paying the factory to deliver what you ordered, not a bunch of garbage.
and I can imagine what it's like. I deal with manufacturing of relatively simple items (compared to a DH bike) all of the AP region. When it comes to validating processes and getting everything right so they can go into production, you basically have to hold their hand the entire way.
being involved in drawing up the suspension layout and actually writing up a buying spec (not generating the drawings) are very different things though.
Some suppliers will be nice and use common sense to give what the customer (Evil in this case) wants, others will follow the spec to the letter. So if there are any allowances, they'll exploit them.
Lets hope the Chinese guys are on the kind side this time. I work for a sizeable engineering company (considerably more complex items than DH bikes), and even we got hosed by bl**dy canadians!
Not same!
In fairness, neither are equivalent to a Hyundai by a long shot.
But, I'm not sure why people are so "hard gay" for the evil. I personally don't find this very appealing from a purely perfectionist aesthetic point of view:
agreed, but then again, consider the general engineering competency of those involved.
definitely. the sites want to keep their specs/process windows as wide as possible to minimize scrap.
at least you're dealing with north america. i deal with china, singapore, india, and pakistan.Lets hope the Chinese guys are on the kind side this time. I work for a sizeable engineering company (considerably more complex items than DH bikes), and even we got hosed by bl**dy canadians!
So if I had my way, nobody would have seen this bike for many many months.. But now that it's out and there are a lot of questions I'll try to answer what I can.
I'm stoked that so many people like what they see, I am really thrilled about this bike, and as one of Kevin's personal crying pillows over the last 18 months I am just really happy for the guys at Evil to have pulled this off given the ridiculous hurdles that they were saddled with.
Also, the flip chips now retain their originally intended function. They key into the frame with a figure 8 shape, and also pick up bosses in the frame. The bolts really just hold them onto the swingarm, they shouldn't take any shear force really.
All in all the structural changes in the Undead's links are a massive improvement over the Revolt in my opinion.
Yes, unsprung mass is lower on the non-floating shock, and there was literally ZERO difference between the leverage ratio on the original Revolt fixed design and the production Revolt floating design.
There is one really good reason why we went back to non-floating on the Undead(fixed the typo guys). The fixed shock location makes it a lot easier for us to develop and run leverage ratio modifying chips and links. You WILL see the WC team taking advantage of this functionality this season. Also, the fixed shock design is slightly lighter, I estimate by about 60 grams. Believe me, the PB story is just scratching the surface of what's really going on here from a tech standpoint.
Thanks,
Dave
I'm stoked that so many people like what they see, I am really thrilled about this bike, and as one of Kevin's personal crying pillows over the last 18 months I am just really happy for the guys at Evil to have pulled this off given the ridiculous hurdles that they were saddled with.
Yeah I got so fed up with the hardware on my personal Revolt that I took it upon myself to redesign the I links, pivot hardware, downtube pivot, and flip chip design. Truthfully the new design is 99% the same as what I originally sketched for the Revolt. Unfortunately the engineer who designed the Revolt did not agree with my ideas and went a different direction. Now the I links have been replaced with double shear H links, I sourced custom spherical bearings from my fiends at Enduro, and the downtube pivot now passes directly through the frame with the bearings in the Delta links themselves. The Undead pivots are simpler, lighter, and significantly more robust than the Revolt's pivots
Also, the flip chips now retain their originally intended function. They key into the frame with a figure 8 shape, and also pick up bosses in the frame. The bolts really just hold them onto the swingarm, they shouldn't take any shear force really.
All in all the structural changes in the Undead's links are a massive improvement over the Revolt in my opinion.
Actually, the original design for the Revolt was non-floating, and all of the trail and all mountain bikes have been non-floating. The Revolt ended up becoming a floating shock bike because of a clearance issue with the rear shock pivot and the swingarm crossbrace. Ultimately it could have gone either way on the Revolt.
Yes, unsprung mass is lower on the non-floating shock, and there was literally ZERO difference between the leverage ratio on the original Revolt fixed design and the production Revolt floating design.
There is one really good reason why we went back to non-floating on the Undead(fixed the typo guys). The fixed shock location makes it a lot easier for us to develop and run leverage ratio modifying chips and links. You WILL see the WC team taking advantage of this functionality this season. Also, the fixed shock design is slightly lighter, I estimate by about 60 grams. Believe me, the PB story is just scratching the surface of what's really going on here from a tech standpoint.
So yeah, in addition to the flip chips, links, pivot re-engineering, lobbying for features like removable ISCG05 tabs, I did the baseline and flipped geometry, as well as acted as a sounding board during the industrial design and engineering process.
It changes nothing with the leverage ratio and anyone who tells you differently is either blatantly lying to you to sell more bikes or doesn't know what they are talking about.
Pretty much nailed it, see above. Really, if anything, the floating design was made to do what the fixed design already did if you look at it from a historical standpoint.
Thanks,
Dave
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I don't know what's up at your local shop but Devinci is selling Wilsons as fast as they make them, so that's about that.
So question...why are people so hard gay for the evil, but not nearly as moist over the devinci?
Second, integrated fork bumpers are nothing new. FTW had them on the Sinister R9.
Just curious as to why people are so hot and bothered by a bike that's similar to other things on the market but is brought by a company that essentially failed the first time around. Do we want this? Do we need it? Is the DH community that big?
Fork bumpers, mountain cycle had them in the 90s, why don't all mountain bikes have them now? Seems elementary to me.
I'm not going to get into a discussion about Evil "failing the first time around" as you put it, but Kevin has taken a company that was wildly successful and innovative with jumping a street bikes, turned it into an international brand producing some of the most sought after racing equipment in the market, weathered a huge failure from his only supply channel, and bounced back undeterred to make the products that he dreams about, all the while working to make good on the promises he's made to his customers and supporters. If that's a failure then I don't understand the definition. That's all I have to say on the matter.
Dave
first off, thanks for being so candid about the hardware situation. i remember talking to you at one point about how the final production hardware was not your original design. the new H-links and the new flip chips do look fantastic and really wish that did make the final design on the Revolt.
the nice thing about having the flip chip keyed into the frame is that the hole wont ovalize like what happens sometimes with the Revolt.
having the bearings in the DELTA link is also smart since having them directly on the downtube made them susceptible to mud and water and they blew out kinda fast, just like the link bushings.
though, i probably wouldnt buy one (since i have 2 other dh bikes,) it is very reassuring to see the hardware/connector issue fully addressed (and i know this Undead is still a early proto.)
That goes without saying, but again common due diligence pays off in preventing these issues from occurring. It's just part of the game when you do stuff overseas. As you've stated
Also, as pointed out by dw, he provided the suspension platform and sketches and it doesn't sound like he was necessarily happy with some of the engineers execution of his design. Based on the deliverables it's entirely fair to question the business and engineering competency of those involved (not dw's). Same goes with the Pacific factory which seems to be underwhelming in their own ability to provide management and auditing for oversea clients. The whole story reminds of an Alibaba dot com story gone wrong.
Luckily the business venture is still going and I'm sure it was quite the learning exercise for some of those involved which should translate to better execution. However, it does suck that the exercise involved paying customers. I say best of luck to them since you can never have too many people in the dh game.
yea i wasn't sure how involved he was in the process, or how many other engineers were involved with the designing of the frame. Was just giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Talking with Chris/Lance Canfield and Kevin that has been the major contention that you have to basically do that.
yea, its not just the bike industry, its any manufacturing over there.
Managing the production is as, if not more important than the design..
Designing a product within the limitations of the tooling available/willing to pay for is also a fun game..
Rushing development and perfecting production takes too much time as we need the product to market now!
Expecting CAD drawings to be made to the perfection first go is never going to happen..
Not implying that anything particularly applys to Evil... Its just an Funking mind field to producing a mountain bike frame - unless you have been in the shoes of managing a production you may not understand why things turn out the way they do.
Designing a product within the limitations of the tooling available/willing to pay for is also a fun game..
Rushing development and perfecting production takes too much time as we need the product to market now!
Expecting CAD drawings to be made to the perfection first go is never going to happen..
Not implying that anything particularly applys to Evil... Its just an Funking mind field to producing a mountain bike frame - unless you have been in the shoes of managing a production you may not understand why things turn out the way they do.
then factor in the 11-13 hour time zone difference, and things take FOR-EV-ER.
I was looking into a revolt, got talked out of it -- went with a V10c (I was already an SC whore) then EVil goes along and makes this full Carbonium hooker? dang.. I already have 2 DH bikes too (okay ones a VPFree, but its still a beast) -- maybe I need 3?
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I'm not saying they're the same, rather that, aesthetically, they're probably two of the most similar DH frames on the market.
Glad to hear that devinci is selling those bikes. That frame is near the top of my list, should I get the cash, of new bikes. Love the split pivot, love the packaging, love the made in North Americaness.
I guess we disagree on the classification of failure in this instance. I know you have a personal investment in the matter, so we'll never see eye to eye, but I see a company that bought a name, tried to get a frame to market without doing due diligence, found that their farmed out manufacturer couldn't produce, and left their customers stranded during the process. Limited contact, limited news, limited communication, limited support...those are the things that I consider a failure. I think its great that they're going again, but I honestly wonder what made them drop the entire Revolt frame from their lineup and pursue a brand new prototype, rather than finding a fresh manufacturer to get frames out the door and into customer's hands. I think it's great that they're willing to warranty old frames for new...but what happens if the new ones start breaking? You have to wait for the next model to come out before you can get a replacement of a new frame?
I absolutely LOVE the idea of another north american bike company. My reasons for not buying are completely personal--nothing wrong with the bike. I wouldn't buy one for reasons including the concentric pivot (again, nothing wrong, just not my cup of tea in a design), shock placement, tube design and there is something about its lines that just seem a little "off" to me. Again, I am not bashing the bike; I love what it represents and I have heard nothing but positive things about it.... Its just not for me.