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Evil Undead

Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
tabletop84 said:
Man that frame is small.
Click to expand...
Not really.
I've explained this in detail before - when you have a 62.9 (stock) HA, the reach/stack numbers are always going to be smaller while the WB numbers will be bigger. Look at the geo chart for a '13 Gambler for a fair comparison, similarly slack head angle. The WB on my L measures 47.8" currently - longer than the L version of your frame.

Also four sizes don't mean that the range of sizing changed, it just means there's more granularity. If you ride an L in other bikes you'd probably ride an XL undead. However now there are more choices in the middle - good for people like me who were always between M and L.
supercow said:
Running 140 of BV pressure then means that you've made it more progressive than the stock recommended 130 - is that correct, or does it not get "used" because you've not engaged the btm out knob at all?
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You're correct - the amount of pressure and position of BO adjuster both affect the progression (albeit slightly differently). However the bike pops really well in stock guise with the recommended pressure, if you drop the pressure to minimum you tend to reduce that a bit too. Try both if you want, but I think most people have found that 145-150 is ideal. As I said, I'll be removing my BV soon (and revalving to compensate) to keep the pop and kill the position sensitivity - there's potential for better square edged performance over the stock shock. It would be a similar story in any modern progressive EOS frame.
 
T

tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
891
15
Udi said:
Not really.
I've explained this in detail before - when you have a 62.9 (stock) HA, the reach/stack numbers are always going to be smaller while the WB numbers will be bigger. Look at the geo chart for a '13 Gambler for a fair comparison, similarly slack head angle. The WB on my L measures 47.8" currently - longer than the L version of your frame.
Click to expand...
So this chart is incorrect/outdated?



But the tues headangle is 62.8 too and 47.8" is like 2mm longer than the L-tues. But I heard that the tues sizing is rather big.
 
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Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
tabletop84 said:
So this chart is incorrect/outdated?
Click to expand...
Yes - multiple errors - incorrect head angle, and same wheelbase listed for all sizes.

It's incorrect to use the reach value alone to calculate the fit of a bike anyway. At the very least you need to take the hypotenuse of the reach/stack values to get hand-foot distance. When you do that, you'll see that the largest size in both Undead and Tues come to the same value of 732mm: √(440² + 585²) ≈ √(418² + 600²). The reason for this is partially because the Undead has a lower BB than the Tues. But even at that point there are multiple other variables that will affect the sizing when actually riding - particularly WB, CS, HA.

Ultimately it's best to actually ride the bikes in different sizes if possible.

PS - How is your 'suspension damping that defies commonly accepted principles of physics' going for you? Last I heard you had a high tech setup that provided hydraulic damping while avoiding kinetic-to-heat energy conversion. I'm sure I'm not the only one waiting to hear the details!
 
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tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
891
15
Yeah but reach is the only geometry variable that you can't really change without affecting steering/position. Every other variable is (pretty much) independently adaptable on modern frames.

Udi said:
PS - How is your 'suspension damping that defies commonly accepted principles of physics' going for you? Last I heard you had a high tech setup that provided hydraulic damping while avoiding kinetic-to-heat energy conversion. I'm sure I'm not the only one waiting to hear the details!
Click to expand...
sorry - patent pending - can't get into details
 
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Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
That's also incorrect.
You can't independently change the stack measurement on most frames (BB to reach measurement intersection), and furthermore it forms a critical part of the hand-foot distance when standing and thus the effective 'fit' of a DH bike - so to consider reach without stack (particularly on a DH bike) is almost useless.
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
I do my best :)

Bike looks sweet supercow, can I ask what size cassette you're running?
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
I just meant the gear range - I'm on an 11-23 and I had to set that mech quite close to the chainstay for it to shift smoothly, but in the Saint manual 11-23 is the smallest allowable size so I think it makes it a little finicky to set up. I'm guessing yours is bigger from the looks and probably easier to set up as a result.
 
supercow

supercow

Monkey
Feb 18, 2009
969
130
I'm on the 11-23 as well, they were easy enough to set-up, though possibly we have different standards :)
I shift once or twice at the start of a run, seldom during.

Sorry to keep pestering you with novice questions, but how on earth do you measure your sag - my buddy tried to get the eye to eye while I was stood on the bike, but couldn;t manage it.
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
Yeah the shock bumper works, although it doesn't move particularly freely on the RC4 so can be a little inaccurate.

I just used a bit of grease on the shaft, enough to be visible - and then measure up to where the seal has stopped scraping it. Both the bumper and grease methods you can do yourself as a bonus.
 
supercow

supercow

Monkey
Feb 18, 2009
969
130
Yea I tried the bumper and thought it does'nt move freely enough.
Didn't think of grease, so will give that a go :)
 
Harry BarnOwl

Harry BarnOwl

Monkey
Jul 24, 2008
174
38
Not sure what size to go for now. Having seen pictures of supercow's the large really doesn't look that big, and we're roughly the same height. I like the sizing of my medium sunday for the most part but the cockpit does feel a bit short sometimes on faster tracks, would it be a mistake to go for a large?
 
supercow

supercow

Monkey
Feb 18, 2009
969
130
The medium would have felt far too small for me (to what I'm used to).

I'm assuming you're moving down south again now that you've finished Uni - this might have an impact on which you decide to go for. With short legs and along torso, I think I made the correct call.

My only point of reference really is the Makulu, since it's my first DH bike, back in 09, so I can only use it as a reference.

At aston hill, I'm running it in the steep and low setting, so that it corners the tight stuff and not feel like barge pole around corners. So the large in effect has a tiny bit more TT, and shorter in the W/B than Makulu.

When I plan on hitting Woburn sands dor some jumping action, I'll chuck it in Steep / High setting., making it even more "chuckable", however when I go to anything gnarlier (i.e: France) I'll rake and drop her out.

A couple of initial thoughts, that might or might not change as time passes:
The bike wants to jump. It really really wants to edge you on to send it. I ended up clearing the rainbow sender on Aston's S2A track by more than a bike length than before...the step-up before it I overshot and landed over the catch berm on my second run down.

The Makulu was all about absolute control and traction, where the Undead is very active edging you to try different lines, without losing grip. I'm struggling for the correct word... but I think "accurate" is the best way to describe it. That also makes it slightly less forgiving when you're not "on it" or just cruising a bit.

It corners and accelerates like a motherplucker... without a doubt.

It does a strange braking thing, where it feels like brake jack - but it isn't - and the rear stays as active before...and you get pinged forward. Can't quite verbalise and describe it any better than that yet.

In short, I reckon that if you stay up in Scotland and you will end up running it always in the slack / low setting, than you will get away just fine in the Medium. If you want more of a Swiss army knife, go for the large.
 
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Stu Wiltshire

Chimp
May 27, 2013
3
0
Gloucestershire (UK)
Hello all, I've been following this thread for a couple of months now as I was in 2 minds about getting an Undead, and as you guys over the pond have owned yours for a lot longer than the few people who own them in the UK I thought I would wait and see what you guys thought of them first, and from what I've read so far its all good news.
Supercow I'm glad you've asked a lot of the questions I've been thinking about. I've ordered a XL Undead as I'm pretty much 6'4, I'm use to riding smallish bikes, I currently own a long lapierre Dh bike and there renown for not being the biggest bikes in the world.
I actually ordered about a month ago but my bad luck our distributor in the Uk had sold out of larges. So I'm still waiting on mine.

Stu
 
Harry BarnOwl

Harry BarnOwl

Monkey
Jul 24, 2008
174
38
Yeah I'm staying in scotland for the oil monies!

I'm liking what I'm hearing about how poppy it is. If there's two things I could change about the sunday it would be making it easier to get into the air and making it handle nasty pointy rocky things better.

While I'm the same height as you I'm the opposite proportions - short torso and longer legs. I think I'll know fairly quickly when I try yours whether it's right or not :)
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
Harry -
If you're happy on a M Sunday and feel the cockpit is a bit short then go for the L. It's a longer bike (due to the things I talked about earlier) but actual hand-foot distance is only ~3-4mm longer than your old bike. If you run it in the stock steep setting with a fairly short fork setting it shouldn't be too difficult to handle.

supercow -
Very few bikes out there actually brake jack (virtually no current frames do, including both the Makulu and Undead) - most are slightly pro squat. Those two bikes should feel quite similar under braking given their main pivot locations, so I suspect what you are feeling as a difference is actually a result of different suspension and different geometry. The Undead theoretically has a little more pro-squat than the Makulu so in reality it would do the opposite to what you describe, which is why I think what you felt is unrelated to the frame's braking characteristics. The two frames have drastically different leverage curves and that's more likely to explain the difference in pitching - it may be worth trying an extra click of rebound if you want to reduce the difference a little.

You can also control the amount of pop very easily (if desired) by increasing or reducing the chamber pressure I found, however once you get used to the pop, you miss it very quickly when it's gone. Like Harry, that's the biggest thing my old bike lacked so it's nice to have it now.
 
Harry BarnOwl

Harry BarnOwl

Monkey
Jul 24, 2008
174
38
Udi, I'll give supercow's large a try. I'm really torn to be honest as I really don't know if the M sunday is actually a bit too small or just right, and I don't know where the evil will fit on that spectrum. Here's one of the better side-on pictures of me riding it, does it look a bit out of proportion?



On more technical stuff it's fantastic but as soon as stuff opens up and gets fast and rocky, things get a bit out of shape and it just doesn't feel comfortable. At fort william the other day I almost felt like I was on a bmx with suspension, but then again fort bill can make a lot of bikes feel like that.
 
no skid marks

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,511
29
ACT Australia
Udi said:
so to consider reach without stack (particularly on a DH bike) is almost useless.
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Really? Pretty much all bikes BB heights will be within 1.5" of each others at the most extreme. How much will .5" BB drop change, effect a reach measurement? Reach is the first thing I look at to assess sizing, and more often than not, the only thing before I'd rule it out as the wrong size bike for me. Most sizes jump more than I'd imagine the difference stack could make on reach don't they? You are right though, everything adds up to how a bike feels, and how it'll fit you.

UDI if you know your sag, how inaccurate would it be for you to measure your chainstay length so people could use that to get the same sag as you(30% or whatever you run)? Just as a guide at least. The Undead is quite rearward axle path at the start, so it should be relatively accurate. Better than a dodgy bump stop measurement at least.
 
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Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
no skid marks said:
Really? Pretty much all bikes BB heights will be within 1.5" of each others at the most extreme.
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Yes, hugely in fact - doing what you suggest provides a highly inaccurate comparison.

It's been well known that effective TT measurements are useless, and 'reach' is essentially a modified and standardised ETT measurement - it is the length from the top of the HT to the intersection with a vertical line from the BB. This measurement alone is not particularly useful in calculating the fit of the bike. However when you combine it with the stack measurement it becomes very useful, as you can calculate the effective downtube length, and thus hand-foot distance of a frame - which is very useful when working out how the bike will fit you. Doing this is simple trigonometry - try it yourself - the reach and stack are the perpendicular sides of a right angled triangle: √(reach² + stack²) = DT, i.e. top of headtube to centre of BB.

The ratio between the reach and stack lengths will affect how much you sit 'in' vs 'on' a bike so I'm not saying these numbers are completely useless independently, however when considering fit, they must be considered together.

Keep in mind that I use the words 'fit' and 'size' differently - purely because a DH bike may fit someone in the hand-foot sense, however because WB/HA/CS are independent of the reach/stack measurement, you can end up with a bike that is significantly longer (or shorter) when actually riding or going around a corner.

Hopefully you can make sense of that because it'll be useful to you.

no skid marks said:
how inaccurate would it be for you to measure your chainstay length so people could use that to get the same sag as you(30% or whatever you run)?
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Very inaccurate - it's difficult to measure the exact centre of BB and rear axle, and that's not even considering the inaccuracy introduced by any angle in your measurement (looking at the bike from a birds-eye perspective). Trig again - if it's not a straight line, you'll be measuring a longer length than reality. The bumper idea is not perfect but if you can use something other than the bumper like I suggested (in the same way) you'll have a far more accurate measurement because it is direct.
 
blindboxx2334

blindboxx2334

Turbo Monkey
Mar 19, 2013
1,340
101
Wets Coast
that guy has no idea what he wants to do with that bike.. from what i can tell it looks like he doesnt want to ride it, but he's also on the fence about selling it.. thought i remember him saying he was either going to sell or 'hang it up'.

crazy (and sad) that someone can spend that much on a bike and not even give it what it deserves.
 
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tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
891
15
Could it be that you need to shorten that chain!? Otherwise I dig - could be my next frame if Yt doesn't deliver as expected.
 
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