[Udi]

I noticed on the inside (where the spring is in the way) are another two bolt holes. Are there bolts in there too, or are they just the bolt holes?

What you see on the inside is just the female component of the bolts, which are keyed into the dogbone links - so the outer bolts thread into those rather than the link itself. If there's no play when lifting or riding the bike and the bolts are tight I don't think you have a problem.

I'm still waiting for replacement bearings since opening weekend.

That's not cool. I'd probably hold off on those VXB ones though as they aren't sealed and probably won't last long for the price / hassle of fitting 1mm spacers either side. I did email Enduro about this and just got a reply which might be useful to know:

Hi Udi,
Enduro is making a new bearing for this application. It will be much more reliable. It won't be ready for a few weeks, though.
Best regards,
Chris@RWC

 

[supercow]

Hope the works, posting from my mobile:
The second one is me picking it up and dropping by the seat. It sounds worse in the video than it is. Don't notice anything while riding.

The distributor here said that there were a few where this had happened, it's been rectified and there's a batch of new links out for the end of August.

 

[Udi]

The first video shows what I explained with the rotating movement, which is normal (you're actually rotating the link, not rocking it side to side). The second video shows actual play - which is not right - my bike does the same thing and so does Thiessens, hence the updated bearings coming out.

If the new bearings are no longer spherical it'll remove the radial/rotational movement (first vid) as well but that's not really a problem - it's actually kinda cool because it eliminates swingarm side-loads reaching the shock and shock link.

In any case, hopefully the new bearings become available sooner rather than later.

 

[intenserider]

On the subject of the spherical bearings, did anyone else get spares with their frame? Only reason I ask is because I got 4 spare bearings with my frame.

 

[intenserider]

Here's my Evil Undead. Had her for a couple of months now.

Also on the subject of the spherical bearings, did anyone else get spares with their frame? Only reason I ask is because I got 4 spare with my frame.

 

[Tomasis]

Hi Udi,

I didnt read carefully about Undead suspension stuffs though I'd like to ask you. Since you ride it, I wonder what is your impressions on that?

I got interested for Labyrinth Minotaur and noticed that LR curve is similar to Undead/Revolt/Devilson/DHR. Antonio Osuna wrote that dual progression offer similar performance to simple Progressive curve. What do you think? What possibilities of tuning do the dual progression linkage offer for air and coil shocks even those with limited tuning abilities as Stoy which you criticized for the lack of adjustments. I thought that in comparison to simple progressive curve, it'd be easier to nail your preference on dual/multi progressive curve, doesnt it? Sunday frame had progressive/regressive curve and Im not chocked that Stoy HSC crank had to be modified heavily. Would it be different outcome if you had to do again on Undead frame?

I could keep up writing but I stop here and would love to read more stuffs of you about kinematics &tuning. Im slowly learning...

 

[supercow]

Interesting that you had issues with the rebound damping on the Stoy, because that's my biggest complaint about the RC4. I really like the shock, however I don't have enough fine tuning of the rebound like I had on the Stoy and VOID respectively.

It feels like I only have one setting which works for me - one click more and it's too fast, and one click less and it's too slow - so I'm "stuck"

 

[Udi]

I've noticed that before too, however the actual rebound damping curve is more favorable in my experience and something that Fox excels at. There are plenty of options though - the adjuster will sit in between two clicks happily, and for a longer term solution it'd be easy to change the oil to a slightly lighter weight and jump to the correct click or have it re-valved to push the damping range a little further in the desired direction. Quick job for me but you're probably across a few ponds unfortunately.

Keep in mind increased chamber pressure also increases rebound speed slightly, and increased compression damping will decrease rebound kick. Might be short term options to try - the inverse applies too in both cases.

 

[Vrock]

Hi Udi, when I did the model of the Undead there was very few pictures of it on the internet and no info at all at the website, the model has very small links and the shock mount is hidden... So it's a little bit off, I think I've have talked about it with you before.

Bikes on the library of the program are off most the time too, some are better than others, but if you are interested in some bike in particular you better do the model yourself. My model of the Sunday looks a lot like yours.



Tony.

 

[Udi]

Definitely understand, the main problem was just the shock length being incorrect though which threw off some of the other numbers. That Sunday curve looks pretty accurate to me.

I found that even if you have a good side-on picture and pinpoint the centres of the pivots, there's still potential for large errors, especially on all these short link bikes. I found only way to get accurate data is to physically measure the bike yourself. The other thing I found is a lot of bikes have very strange COM values set which result in anti-squat curves that aren't comparable unless you manually match them.

 

[Tomasis]

Udi

is there LR curve or acceptable Linkage file of of Undead frame?

 

[Dude!]

Definitely understand, the main problem was just the shock length being incorrect though which threw off some of the other numbers. That Sunday curve looks pretty accurate to me.

I found that even if you have a good side-on picture and pinpoint the centres of the pivots, there's still potential for large errors, especially on all these short link bikes. I found only way to get accurate data is to physically measure the bike yourself. The other thing I found is a lot of bikes have very strange COM values set which result in anti-squat curves that aren't comparable unless you manually match them.

I have always had a question about this. If the errors to simulate the correct behavior require such precision (I have heard DW say millimeters), how accurate are frames being built? It is hard for me to imagine that they are being built to these tolerances? Maybe I am wrong and they are.

This is not to disagree with you, but more a question about the reality of executing these suspension pivot points.

 

[EVIL JN]

Also how much havoc would 1mm of play in a few pivots do then?

 

[bismojo]

I have always had a question about this. If the errors to simulate the correct behavior require such precision (I have heard DW say millimeters), how accurate are frames being built? It is hard for me to imagine that they are being built to these tolerances? Maybe I am wrong and they are.

This is not to disagree with you, but more a question about the reality of executing these suspension pivot points.

Good point..

IMHO the CNC part of sunday should be precise, but the toptube (i found) has some variation.. when i measured couple frames.

@udi are you saying that many linkage data and analysis (such as at linkagedesign.blogspot.com) are not accurate?

 

[Udi]

I have always had a question about this. If the errors to simulate the correct behavior require such precision (I have heard DW say millimeters), how accurate are frames being built? It is hard for me to imagine that they are being built to these tolerances? Maybe I am wrong and they are.

Fair question (and not one I can answer, obviously varies between manufacturers), but I think the point you miss is how hugely inaccurate measuring a bike from a photo is - which unfortunately is how the majority of uploaded/included files are created. In fact the program's primary mode of operation seeems to be picking points off a photo. I've found inaccuracies of ~10mm on files quite easily, which is far greater than the few mm that frames might physically be off by.

I'd say carbon frames created using the same mould would be fairly consistent, removing welds from the operation would remove many possible inconsistencies. CNC items are also guaranteed to have a high level of consistency (linkages etc), so I don't think this is realistically a big problem on modern frames.

Udi
is there LR curve or acceptable Linkage file of of Undead frame?

I believe I've made a fairly accurate one, but not something I wish to share. I also suspect the responsible engineers would not appreciate their work being made so easily accessible.

@udi are you saying that many linkage data and analysis (such as at linkagedesign.blogspot.com) are not accurate?

Unless you build a jig (as Vorsprung Suspension did) and measure each frame in the same way, on the same tool, then the possibility of inaccuracy is high. Little things like changes in geometry (fork length, BB height), COM values, and moving pivot locations a few mm can make significant differences on many frames.

Not to detract from the site, Tony is careful in his work and has built many of his own (incredibly nice) frames that are worth seeing - they are branded "Jeronimo". If you know what you're looking at it's easier to establish which values are likely to be reasonably close, and which values are unreliable due to high possibility of measurement error - this varies between frame designs. There's no reason the site can't be a useful guide - but it'd be naive to compare curves on a graph directly and blindly just because it's displayed in such an easy to absorb format.

 

[supercow]

I am about to get my Undead to replace in warranty my Revolt...

I am 6'1 or 6'2.... Should i go for a L or XL? Revolt is Medium but definitively small for me....

I should get a 50lbs more spring than in the Revolt, right?


Thanks guys!

You will probably be happy on L (it is definitely bigger than an M Revolt), but if you prefer long bikes, get the XL. At your height you will fit either, it will depend on preference.

What is your weight + current spring rate, and will you be running the stock RC4 in the Undead?

I also say XL - I'm 5.9" and think that the recommended size M would have been far too small for me.

So I was driving home from work last night and was contemplating why it is that I physically almost can not ride a bike while clipped in. It feels like I would have to re-learn how to ride a bike.

At the same time I also wondered why I can't get on with bikes that have a short TT / reach and prefer the Undead in size large.

I came to the conclusion that the common denominator between these two points of pondering, is my riding position.

Now, I'm not always as far forward, but having gone through a lot of my riding pics, I seem to by close to humping the bar in a lot of cases, so I might change my original recommendation to AiTHOR.

I think if you are anything like me, then XL for sure, however if you ride the bike far over the back (like Fairclough / Minnaar / Atherton etc) does, then you will probably be fine on a Large.

 

[Dude!]

Thanks. Good point. I just hope in the end it is not really sensitive to 1mm.

 

[AiTHOR]

So I was driving home from work last night and was contemplating why it is that I physically almost can not ride a bike while clipped in. It feels like I would have to re-learn how to ride a bike.

At the same time I also wondered why I can't get on with bikes that have a short TT / reach and prefer the Undead in size large.

I came to the conclusion that the common denominator between these two points of pondering, is my riding position.

Now, I'm not always as far forward, but having gone through a lot of my riding pics, I seem to by close to humping the bar in a lot of cases, so I might change my original recommendation to AiTHOR.

I think if you are anything like me, then XL for sure, however if you ride the bike far over the back (like Fairclough / Minnaar / Atherton etc) does, then you will probably be fine on a Large.

Haha, thanks for the recommendation! I am still waiting my warranty Undead, so still in time to choose L or XL.... I took a look to the Undeads at the Vallnord WC and the XL is not than big as it sounds...

At the moment it is not possible to me to ride than forward as you, as the M is too small for me.... I find more comfortable over the back.... But i always try to ride more forward, forcing the position a bit... My worry is to get the XL and dont feel it as playable as a small bike

 

[Tomasis]

Im 5"10 (177cm) and take XL in all days. It is not long compared to Fury Medium. Also with 30mm stem.

 

[blindboxx2334]

Also how much havoc would 1mm of play in a few pivots do then?

unless something is designed to have a little play or slop in it, generally itll get worse.. not sure how these puppies hold up to something like that, but increased bearing play could even damage your bearing seats.

everytime i click on this thread, im reminded how uncool i am and still dont have one of these beautiful works of art =(

 

[Keiron]

Wow didn't even make it to week eight and the bearings are on their way out on my frame too. Silly spherical bearings. Every person I've met so far with an Undead has this same issue. Did they actually do any real world testing on these frames before releasing to the public? Wonder how the guy's racing the WorldCups are getting on.....

So I guess i gotta wait like everyone else and hope Evil release a batch of bearings that actually work?
Not even got a clue how to get in touch with the company since all the "doors" online seem to be closed...
Feel so naive for buying the frame.

 

[Udi]

kevin (at) evil-bikes.com
See post #1720. Enduro are making a new bearing, and I believe some of the WC bikes have already been changed to regular roller bearings in those links. That said, I think everything you said is completely reasonable - waiting and hoping are not good things when it comes to CS.

 

[dilzy]

Oh man, I thought I'd drop in on this thread and see how things were going with this frame and already there's problems with contact and bearings not lasting 2 seconds (to be fair this is the case with every bike DW seems to have got his mitts on, man can do kinematics, but be ****ed if he can select a bearing system).

Good luck fellas.

 

[Udi]

I've got no affiliation, but that's flat out wrong dilzy.
The other two DW bikes I've had experience with (07+ Sunday and DW-DHR) have both had good bearing systems, and the Sunday in particular had very large-balled bearings at all points and would easily last 2 years before needing servicing or changes. I would know because I owned one for 7 years.

As I suggested above, I don't think this particular scenario is justifiable, but If you're going to slander someone at least get your facts straight.

 

[intenserider]

Has anyone had any luck finding a regular roller bearing the same size as the spherical ones? If so could I please be pointed in the right direction. On a similar note, is the play in the spherical bearings something that effects everyones Undead's or are some lucky to not have that problem? I guess i'll have to wait & see with mine. Cheers

 

[Owennn]

Has anyone had any luck finding a regular roller bearing the same size as the spherical ones? If so could I please be pointed in the right direction. On a similar note, is the play in the spherical bearings something that effects everyones Undead's or are some lucky to not have that problem? I guess i'll have to wait & see with mine. Cheers

You may be able to find a needle bearing that fits but not a ball without also changing out the bolt through the middle. Sphericals require less space than a ball bearing with the same ID.

 

[intenserider]

You may be able to find a needle bearing that fits but not a ball without also changing out the bolt through the middle. Sphericals require less space than a ball bearing with the same ID.

Unfortunately it may not be possible to change the bolt through the middle as they are specifically keyed/slot into the back of the H-link/dogbone link, if that make sense.

 

[prestonDH]

So I am new to this site, I have been riding dh for years but never created an acct. Anyway, I picked up an Undead and let me start by saying its a stupid sick bike, but I have a problem and question. I am hitting about a 8-9 ft drop to a smooth-ish transition and I think my bike is bottoming out in the rear, I am only 150 and have the HSC up and bottom out control 3 of 4 clicks, Fox DHX RC4 w/ Ti spring, preload on the spring is about one third to half the way down the threaded portion. That is my problem, is it bottoming out, is it the tire hitting my seat post? I never had this issue on an old scott gambler I had. SO a solution I thought of is to buy a rockshox vivid air r2c, does anyone know what tune, the one I was looking at is m/l. Any help is appreicated guys, THANKS!

Also, I have the issue with the loose dogbone links as well AND the paint chipping due to diff flex rates on the rear trangle between the carbon and metal. I read that there would be replacements sent out and I have tried contacting evil but the chances of that happening are as good as me finding a gazillion dolllars on the street... any help with that too?

 

[daisycutter]

Sounds like either your Ti spring rate needs to go up.

http://service.foxracingshox.com/consumers/Content/mtbspringratecalculator.htm

 

[prestonDH]

Thanks for the link, Fox recommends a 300#, I have a 350#... Although is could be the issue, I dont think it is.

 

[Thiessen]

does anyone know what tune, the one I was looking at is m/l. Any help is appreicated guys, THANKS!

Also, I have the issue with the loose dogbone links as well AND the paint chipping due to diff flex rates on the rear trangle between the carbon and metal. I read that there would be replacements sent out and I have tried contacting evil but the chances of that happening are as good as me finding a gazillion dolllars on the street... any help with that too?

Im running the vivid air in mine and have been quite happy with it. Recommended tune was the 'A' tune which is a L/L tune. I couldn't find one so I ended up with a M-rebound / L-compression tune.

The cracking is normal and just paint seperation, Kevin sent me some pictures showing whats happening I can post them up but its on my computer at home. (writing this in a whistler hotel room ).

Usually Kevin responds fairly quickly i'm guessing he's fairly busy.
I'll keep my eyes peeled for gazillion dollars haha.

Off to the mountain on my bike which isnt an undead.

 

[IH8Rice]

Thanks for the link, Fox recommends a 300#, I have a 350#... Although is could be the issue, I dont think it is.

how much sag do you have with the 350# spring? how many turns of preload is on the collar? "one third down" doesnt help at all. if you cant get the spring rate right on a coil shock, putting an air shock on will make it even more confusing for you

 

[prestonDH]

I am running between about 20-30% sag, and the preload, I haven't measured (I will tonight)
By 1/3 down I meant out of the entire threaded area that you could screw the spring down about 1/3 down from the top, closest to the upper shock mount, if that helps, but I will have a measurement on here tonight.

Thanks for the info on evil customer service, I will hope they get back to me? BTW I am envious of your current location, evil undead or not.

 

[Christiaan]

What is thr free lenght of your spring? Is the spring for 3" stroke shocks? Reading your preload explanation it sounds like your running a too short ti spring

 

[Udi]

The 350 shouldn't be too soft for your weight, how much pressure are you running in the boost chamber? Increasing that may help, although I wouldn't go too far beyond 150psi. I'd also try (borrowing if needed) a different 350 spring just to make sure your one isn't mislabeled.

These frames have a decent amount of end stroke progression so they shouldn't bottom out easily.

 

[prestonDH]

UDI, I thought the same thing for end stroke compression and that's why I was wondering if it could be my spring set up.
I will be sure to check out each recommendation tonight. Thanks everyone.

 

[dilzy]

I've got no affiliation, but that's flat out wrong dilzy.
The other two DW bikes I've had experience with (07+ Sunday and DW-DHR) have both had good bearing systems, and the Sunday in particular had very large-balled bearings at all points and would easily last 2 years before needing servicing or changes. I would know because I owned one for 7 years.

As I suggested above, I don't think this particular scenario is justifiable, but If you're going to slander someone at least get your facts straight.

DW DHR's the child of DT, only the kinematics are DW's doing. Sundays bearing system is flat out ****, I've looked at a used one, not going beat round any more than say it was very sub-optimal. No more rubbish than nearly every other press fit ball bearing equiped bike out there, but certainly no Santacruz (who have great systems).

 

[Udi]

Haha, passing your opinion off as fact there dilzy, but you do that on a regular basis.

Having owned both highend Santa Cruz frames and a number of (07+) Sundays, the IH system is far superior. SC spec'd tiny bearings in the V10 for so long - and they were poorly supported which meant frame flex, creaking, and play. As I said - I've run the Sunday for 7 years (not just "looked at a used one") and for the most part the bearing system was quite good - and at the very least, better than a lot of other frames. I could go 2 years between changes in hard / pressure washed conditions, and even then there was never any play, flex or creaking.

Keep telling yourself that though.

 

[EVIL JN]

Haha, passing your opinion off as fact there dilzy, but you do that on a regular basis.

Having owned both highend Santa Cruz frames and a number of (07+) Sundays, the IH system is far superior. SC spec'd tiny bearings in the V10 for so long - and they were poorly supported which meant frame flex, creaking, and play. As I said - I've run the Sunday for 7 years (not just "looked at a used one") and for the most part the bearing system was quite good - and at the very least, better than a lot of other frames. I could go 2 years between changes in hard / pressure washed conditions, and even then there was never any play, flex or creaking.

Keep telling yourself that though.

I would agree with Udi on this one on the Sunday, changed bearings once over the three years I had mine and it was second hand. My only two gripes with the Sunday was the lower link pin but some loctite solved that and the fact that it was kind of pita to adjust any shock that actually fit with out having to do a major reworking of the lower link. Otherwise there is nothing to complain about on a Sunday, it is solid front to back.

However my v10c has also gone strong for two seasons on the same bearings so SC seem to have their bearing supplier sorted. The v10c link system is also super easy to work on, especially good is the lower link system.

Compared to my current Scalp and my previous 2011 Demo the v10c and Sunday blows then away by miles in everything from link system to allround ease of working on. Some companies most certainly have better engineers and product developers that think of every litte thing on a frame. Like good cable routing etc

 

[dilzy]

Haha, passing your opinion off as fact there dilzy, but you do that on a regular basis.

Having owned both highend Santa Cruz frames and a number of (07+) Sundays, the IH system is far superior. SC spec'd tiny bearings in the V10 for so long - and they were poorly supported which meant frame flex, creaking, and play. As I said - I've run the Sunday for 7 years (not just "looked at a used one") and for the most part the bearing system was quite good - and at the very least, better than a lot of other frames. I could go 2 years between changes in hard / pressure washed conditions, and even then there was never any play, flex or creaking.

Keep telling yourself that though.

Yes because single shear seat stay bearings are pro yo!. Clearly you must weigh no more than a feather. I'm talking about modern SC frames, not a 2006 v10.

It's not an opinion that unlocked single shear bearings are rubbish, it's a fact. This is why I stay away from RM, rubbish bike manufacturers and fanboys make me angry, I'll see you in another year (don't get too excited).