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Evolution Vs. Creation...same evidence, different views.

Old Man G Funk

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
fluff said:
You're reading this?!? I'm just, like browsing and marvelling at all the quotes and the civility. There's an almost ethereal quality to this argument. Well, until Heath or The Typo Kid stick their oars in anyway.
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I'd actually like Heath to get back into this, because I'd like to see him try to answer to my last replies to him. All he has done is post logical fallacy after logical fallacy, so it's easy to debate him. Andyman has pretty intelligent arguments, so he's harder to debate.
 
fluff

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
See - the big boys are ignoring us.

Well, they were. The Old Man G-Funk goes and makes me look silly by posting a nano-second before me. Poo.
 
fluff

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Old Man G Funk said:
I'd actually like Heath to get back into this, because I'd like to see him try to answer to my last replies to him. All he has done is post logical fallacy after logical fallacy, so it's easy to debate him. Andyman has pretty intelligent arguments, so he's harder to debate.
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You know, he nearly drew me in with that 'Who are you for me to care baout your views' crap. Lets face it, you post in a public forum, what do you expect...

As I see it there is no evidence for creation beyond our existence being a possible consequence of it. It is otherwise entirely faith-based. I have no problem with that, but we should call a spade a spad.
 
Old Man G Funk

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
fluff said:
You know, he nearly drew me in with that 'Who are you for me to care baout your views' crap. Lets face it, you post in a public forum, what do you expect...
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I noticed that too. Of course, one can always turn that around and ask the same question of him.
 
fluff

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
I missed the taint bit (well I was DRB's post cos it was a little one), I really am not reading this properly, it's too good for that.
 
LordOpie

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Old Man G Funk said:
I must be too then. I almost lost it when my sister-in-law was talking about caulk during Thanksgiving dinner.
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Have you ever noticed that the black caulk leaves a thicker bead than the white caulk?
 
Old Man G Funk

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
Andyman_1970 said:
The stuff I cited was from the Babylonian Talmud, of which the Mishnah is considered to be a part of. The Messianics and Jews I interact with use the terms Talmud and Mishnah interchangably........I apologize for the confusion on the matter.
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Hmmm, that doesn't really clear things up, because the Babylonian Talmud is made up of the Mishnah and the Gemora. It's my understanding that the Gemora came after the Mishnah and is just a bunch of discussions about the Mishnah.
 
Andyman_1970

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Old Man G Funk said:
No, you don't "know" that. See, that's one of the problems with interpretations. There's no way of discerning who is in fact correct. And, with the way that the scriptures were handed down, generation to generation, then redacted, copied over and over, written way after the fact, how can you know anything about the intent of the original authors?
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How can one know about the original authors? By studying them and comparing the Text’s to the historical and cultural information about said people group I think through history and archeology one can arrive at a fairly full context of the background of the Bible. An example would be a study of the goddess Artemus, which when placed on Paul’s letter to the church in Ephesus (where Artemus’ temple was), and Timothy certainly give those letters a much fuller meaning rather than the “traditional” Christian view.

For me I think that it boils down to how does one use the Bible, do they use it for good or for evil (which I hate to boil down to such a simple litmus). Which I go back to my citation of Ernst Käsemann from his 1953 speech regarding the Nazi’s. The Bible was also used in the 1800’s to justify slavery, the Bible can be twisted to say anything, I think the question then becomes what has it been “twisted” to say, and does that contradict in a philosophical way the fundamental “story” of the Bible.

Old Man G Funk said:
Actually, no that's not what I'm referring to. When two groups divide over a theological question, have they ever resolved their differences and come back together?
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I’m not aware of any.

Old Man G Funk said:
When man was cast from the garden of eden, man was condemned to work to attain grace.
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If one has to work to attain grace then it no longer is grace – one’s “right standing” before God even in the Old Testament is through grace not performance based.

Old Man G Funk said:
Grace would be a position of good. Therefore, man is in a state of less than good, meaning inherently flawed or evil in some way.
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Technically grace is not a position of “good” it is a gift, if one has to work for a gift then it’s no longer a gift but something earned.

Old Man G Funk said:
No offense here, but I honestly fail to see how your method is really any different. You are simply basing Scripture off of other people's reading of Scripture. Perhaps you don't take silence to mean a prohibition, but you ultimately must always return to the Scripture, because there is no empirical data to back anything up.
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My example of the “silence” of Scripture some refer to was just that an example of what can happen when one has a closed understanding of the Bible rather than seeing it as a document about real people in a real place in a real time……..a concept lost on some Christians. My example was not meant to spark yet another rabbit trail on that subject.
 
Old Man G Funk

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
Andyman_1970 said:
How can one know about the original authors? By studying them and comparing the Text’s to the historical and cultural information about said people group I think through history and archeology one can arrive at a fairly full context of the background of the Bible. An example would be a study of the goddess Artemus, which when placed on Paul’s letter to the church in Ephesus (where Artemus’ temple was), and Timothy certainly give those letters a much fuller meaning rather than the “traditional” Christian view.
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In all seriousness, do we even know that much about the authors? Do we know who Paul was?

For me I think that it boils down to how does one use the Bible, do they use it for good or for evil (which I hate to boil down to such a simple litmus). Which I go back to my citation of Ernst Käsemann from his 1953 speech regarding the Nazi’s. The Bible was also used in the 1800’s to justify slavery, the Bible can be twisted to say anything, I think the question then becomes what has it been “twisted” to say, and does that contradict in a philosophical way the fundamental “story” of the Bible.
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No offense, but how do we know that using the Bible for "evil" is twisting it? It's true that the Bible can be twisted to say anything, but how do we know that twisting it to say good things is not twisting it just as badly as using it to say evil things? Also, if the Bible can be twisted to justify anything, how is it really any use?

[/QUOTE]If one has to work to attain grace then it no longer is grace – one’s “right standing” before God even in the Old Testament is through grace not performance based.[/QUOTE]
I guess the question then becomes whether grace was a normal part of the human that is now broken or defficient or whether it was never really ours to begin with.

Technically grace is not a position of “good” it is a gift, if one has to work for a gift then it’s no longer a gift but something earned.
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I think that sort of depends on one's starting point.

My example of the “silence” of Scripture some refer to was just that an example of what can happen when one has a closed understanding of the Bible rather than seeing it as a document about real people in a real place in a real time……..a concept lost on some Christians. My example was not meant to spark yet another rabbit trail on that subject.
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Right, you can definitely read it in different lights, but ultimately all you have to back up your understanding of the scripture is more scripture. All the other books that you have cited have just been other people's commentary on the source material. You seem to like the commentary from the 1st through 6th centuries, but it is really just commentary on stories that were passed down from many years before that. When were the stories of the first 5 books of the Bible created? When were they finally written down? Who came up with these stories? Do we even know the answers to these questions?
 
DRB

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176354,00.html

Creationism and intelligent design are going to be studied at the University of Kansas, but not in the way advocated by opponents of the theory of evolution.

A course being offered next semester by the university religious studies department is titled "Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationism and other Religious Mythologies."

"The KU faculty has had enough," said Paul Mirecki, department chairman.

"Creationism is mythology," Mirecki said. "Intelligent design is mythology. It's not science. They try to make it sound like science. It clearly is not."
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John Calvert, an attorney and managing director of the Intelligent Design Network in Johnson County, said Mirecki will go down in history as a laughingstock.

"To equate intelligent design to mythology is really an absurdity, and it's just another example of labeling anybody who proposes (intelligent design) to be simply a religious nut," Calvert said. "That's the reason for this little charade."

Mirecki said his course, limited to 120 students, would explore intelligent design as a modern American mythology. Several faculty members have volunteered to be guest lecturers, he said.

University Chancellor Robert Hemenway said Monday said he didn't know all the details about the new course.

"If it's a course that's being offered in a serious and intellectually honest way, those are the kind of courses a university frequently offers," he said.
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Or on the other hand....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177793,00.html
LAWRENCE, Kan. — A college professor whose planned course on creationism and intelligent design was canceled after he derided Christian conservatives said he was beaten by two men along a rural road early Monday.

University of Kansas religious studies professor Paul Mirecki said the men referred to the class when they beat him on the head, shoulders and back with their fists and possibly a metal object, the Lawrence Journal-World reported.

"I didn't know them," Mirecki said of his assailants, "but I'm sure they knew me."
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Old Man G Funk

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
DRB said:
[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176354,00.html





Or on the other hand....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177793,00.html
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I found this interesting as well; it's from an earlier article

“If a person has hate in his heart and says something hateful and later apologizes, do you think the hatred in his heart has been mended?” State Sen. Kay O’Connor, R-Olathe, said Tuesday. “I’m surprised that something more severe isn’t happening to this teacher who obviously has a hatred for Christians.”
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Something more severe, like a beating?

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/nov/30/mirecki_apology_doesnt_appease_critics/?evolution
 
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