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Fat bike babble

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,005
9,670
AK
Does suspension do fuck-all on a fat bike?
The options seem so primitive and the riding so tame.
Serious question.
My answer, as someone who rides the fat in gnarly and tame terrain, downhill and uphill, and having won DH fat mtb races:

Fat bikes ride inherently different in the snow. They are rigid, but they do not ride like rigid fatbikes do in the summer. Some of the differences are the self-steer phenomenon, which is gone in snow, the tires obviously absorb a lot of terrain at the right PSI, the snow compresses and further absorbs impact, snow fills in between roots and rocks, making the impacts smoother, and you generally don't reach the same summer speeds, because you aren't limited so much by your suspension or lack there-of, but the grip of the tire against the snow in turns. If you try to go too fast, you wash out, this is where studs help IME, for not-just-icy conditions, as I can edge more. Still, if you go too fast you'll get suspended-with-no-damping bouncy, but it's more rare. It's fun to do doubles and tabletops in the snow in the fatbike.

It's for these reasons that I don't ride the fatbike in the summer, it bounces like crazy, you have more grip and therefore more speed, you get significant self-steer where the tire tries to continue turning into the turn, huge amount of gyroscopic rigidity that causes the bike to ride up the berm and towards the outside of the turn when trying to turn at speed, etc. Also, the suspension fork would add about 3.5lbs to my front end, making it harder to loft, etc. A few people run them, they aren't super common up here. I think people probably buy them more because they are coming OEM on some bikes.

If you're going to ride it in non-winter conditions, get a suspension fork.
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,505
In hell. Welcome!
I ride both skinny and fat tires A LOT in winter and I just have to re-iterate that in eastern mass, the conditions that give huge advantage to fat vs skinny are rare here. When stuff thaws/refreezes, skinny tires > fats most of the time. My winter rides are usually way faster than summer ones btw., because of smoother, hard fast surfaces and way fewer shenanigans in technical stuff.
 

jdcamb

Tool Time!
Feb 17, 2002
19,845
8,450
Nowhere Man!
The Borealis is my favorite bike so far. It felt fast stable and had spiked tires. Rigid fork also. It costs a Eleventy Billion dollars though. The current owner wants to recoup his investment and is not willing to deal. I am not paying retail for a used bike no matter how few miles it has. He/they will now be paying for their bike service from now on and I am not working on their tri bikes anymore regardless. His Husband has no idea the value of anything and expects me to build him a set of wheels in the spring for $100. That will not be happening again. Fat fuck thinks he can ride lightweight parts he bought off the internet and magically they should last years not weeks. The Borealis has 2 wheelsets also and I like the 1x11 drivetrain also.

The Specialized was to small for me. The only thing I can comment on it is the fork felt assey and lack of spiked tires. Spiked tires are a necessity in my opinion.

Next up Kona Wu and a used Surly Minnesota for $700.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,005
9,670
AK
I got a pair of Wolvhammers under the Hanukkah bush. Still need to try them out. SO freakin ' much new snow here, it is unrideabru off the packed/groomed trails...
Nice. I wear a 11 and got size 14s, put an extra insole (with heating element connected to battery pack) in there. I don't have to use the hears much, but with good thick merino socks my feet stay pretty toasty and the size works good. I bought my lake 302s too small and they are ok for commuting and the occasional race, but not for most riding.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,005
9,670
AK
Hmm. Wifey bought me one size bigger than my street shoe, might need to rethink this. That said, I don't really ride below 15 degrees or so, I am just not into it...
My lakes were just one size larger I believe, they cram my feet. I'd suggest going two. There's some thick socks these days, but that's far better than being cramped, you don't even want to be slightly cramped IME. I'm trying out these sockee things that go over your socks and toes, seem to be helpful. The one part of these boots that is a little problamatic is the toe-box, but this applies to every winter boot. The toe-box is exposed to the wind constantly and there's damn little distance between whatever -temperature outside and your toes inside. The sockees seem to be doing well and honestly between my heaters and the size of the boots I got, I don't feel the need for shoe covers on the outside, just hasn't been necessary down to around -8°F so far, but my buddy was telling me last night how he thinks he needs some for his, because the toe-box is cold for him.
 

w00dy

In heaven there is no beer
Jun 18, 2004
3,417
51
that's why we drink it here
Does suspension do fuck-all on a fat bike?
The options seem so primitive and the riding so tame.
Serious question.
YES! A million times yes.
I really dislike the feeling of an unsuspended fat bike on hard surfaces. I used to own a full rigid fat bike. It's extra springy at just the right frequency to pound your taint. Snow lessens this. Suspension completely eliminates it. I have used the Bucksaw on dry trail rides. There's none of that bouncy feedback I hate so much. Instead, you've got a fast trail bike which grips like a tractor.
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
15,997
13,250
Couldn't remember where the fatbike odds and ends thread was so pity necro bump this thread for a screaming studded snows deal I saw on TGR and jumped on myself...

Screaming deal and I'd be tempted if it were 2x D5's, I don't want the 4.0" tyre out back though with the way they have a D4/D5 bundle.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,005
9,670
AK
My answer, as someone who rides the fat in gnarly and tame terrain, downhill and uphill, and having won DH fat mtb races:

Fat bikes ride inherently different in the snow. They are rigid, but they do not ride like rigid fatbikes do in the summer. Some of the differences are the self-steer phenomenon, which is gone in snow, the tires obviously absorb a lot of terrain at the right PSI, the snow compresses and further absorbs impact, snow fills in between roots and rocks, making the impacts smoother, and you generally don't reach the same summer speeds, because you aren't limited so much by your suspension or lack there-of, but the grip of the tire against the snow in turns. If you try to go too fast, you wash out, this is where studs help IME, for not-just-icy conditions, as I can edge more. Still, if you go too fast you'll get suspended-with-no-damping bouncy, but it's more rare. It's fun to do doubles and tabletops in the snow in the fatbike.

It's for these reasons that I don't ride the fatbike in the summer, it bounces like crazy, you have more grip and therefore more speed, you get significant self-steer where the tire tries to continue turning into the turn, huge amount of gyroscopic rigidity that causes the bike to ride up the berm and towards the outside of the turn when trying to turn at speed, etc. Also, the suspension fork would add about 3.5lbs to my front end, making it harder to loft, etc. A few people run them, they aren't super common up here. I think people probably buy them more because they are coming OEM on some bikes.

If you're going to ride it in non-winter conditions, get a suspension fork.
That didn't age well. I think in 10 years we are going to be laughing at the fools that rode rigid fatbikes.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,005
9,670
AK
The D4 is next to worthless to me, it's just too skinny for decent float and traction is generally function of the casing width IME, the tread design on snow means nothing 95% of the time. If you are lucky to get that real cold grippy snow, then it matters a little, but most of the time it's the same issue with walking in snow, it slips and lugs don't do much. So width rules and I find the D5 is the best "do everything" tire with rolling resistance in mind, traction and ice capability. The D4 is what people ran before the D5 was invented and was the only studded kid on the block for a long time.
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
15,997
13,250
Screaming deal and I'd be tempted if it were 2x D5's, I don't want the 4.0" tyre out back though with the way they have a D4/D5 bundle.
Oof, same seller has the D5's listed separately, $160 for 2.


@Jm_ any idea how the D5 compares in size to the Dunderbeist? That's what wife and I have on the rear of our Wozo's right now and there's not really any more width between the stays. I'm sure they're much better than the 4.8 FBF's we currently have on the front. Just not sure about only studded on the front...

edit:
There's a great sizes chart on the 45nrth website:
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,005
9,670
AK
Oof, same seller has the D5's listed separately, $160 for 2.


@Jm_ any idea how the D5 compares in size to the Dunderbeist? That's what wife and I have on the rear of our Wozo's right now and there's not really any more width between the stays. I'm sure they're much better than the 4.8 FBF's we currently have on the front. Just not sure about only studded on the front...
It's likely got the same casing width as the D5. Any of those big blocky tires, like my Wratchilds, are more rolling resistance IME, with little soft-snow benefit, again, going back to casing width vs. lugs. If snow is soft, lugs don't hold you in it IME. If conditions are real cold hard pack (not ice) those aggressive tires can hold a line good, but IME that amount of aggressiveness (tread) in a fat tire is overkill. Husker Du and D4/5 are on the better rolling side. Wrathchild and Dunderbeist are on the opposite side of the spectrum. Stuff like Wrathlorde and Van Helga kind of in between, Van Helga sipes are suppose to help on ice.

Kind of funny, one of the friends at the race on Saturday said he weighed his studded and non-studded D4s, they were within about 3 grams, since tire rubber variation is more than the weight of the studs, he was kind of blow away, but if you are on frozen surfaces for winter, no reason not to, otherwise, Van Helga can be a good compromise for some partial snow days without having to have studs.
 

jdcamb

Tool Time!
Feb 17, 2002
19,845
8,450
Nowhere Man!
Sometimes when you find a good Fat Bike track Through fresh snow. Something magical happens. You follow in that track and have a ripping good time. Not always. Depends on the snow and usage.
 

4xBoy

Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2006
7,055
2,912
Minneapolis
Going to International falls this weekend for AH135.

Going to be a no snow race.


 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,345
5,097
Ottawa, Canada
Still on your studded Bud&Lou (which are by far the only viable and best fatbike tires ever made)

Around here, Dillinger riders are what is screwing up our trails. Booted climbs and destroyed corners.
I didn't know the Bud and Lou still were valid tires. I took mine off because they couldn't be set up tubeless. In an effort to make room in the basement, I gave them away this fall. Should have sold them... :homer:

oh well, they went to a student who (presumably) is low on cash, so I could do worse.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,005
9,670
AK
I didn't know the Bud and Lou still were valid tires. I took mine off because they couldn't be set up tubeless. In an effort to make room in the basement, I gave them away this fall. Should have sold them... :homer:

oh well, they went to a student who (presumably) is low on cash, so I could do worse.
Johnny 5 are a good substitute with way better ice capability. People are definitely still rolling Bud and Lous though for the size.
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
15,997
13,250
Couldn't resist, D5's inbound...Probably won't snow again until November.
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
15,997
13,250
First rides yesterday on the D5's versus previous ~6 years on oem 4.8 Maxxis FBF up front and 4.6 Dunderbeist out back.

First ride was just a couple of miles on local icy/snowy roads giving the DSO a run. Plenty of grip on the icy sections that I wouldn't have been comfortable on with the previous setup. Second ride was 9miles/1700ft out on packed trails. No idea on the weight difference between old and new tyres, but no issues. I'd say slightly less rear grip up steep pitches needing power to get up them and also similar when braking hard heading downhill fast into corners.

But I can live with that versus having gained the confidence that a momentary patch of icy ground is less likely to put me on the floor.

Thanks @Montana rider !
 

Montana rider

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2005
1,760
2,217
First rides yesterday on the D5's versus previous ~6 years on oem 4.8 Maxxis FBF up front and 4.6 Dunderbeist out back.

First ride was just a couple of miles on local icy/snowy roads giving the DSO a run. Plenty of grip on the icy sections that I wouldn't have been comfortable on with the previous setup. Second ride was 9miles/1700ft out on packed trails. No idea on the weight difference between old and new tyres, but no issues. I'd say slightly less rear grip up steep pitches needing power to get up them and also similar when braking hard heading downhill fast into corners.

But I can live with that versus having gained the confidence that a momentary patch of icy ground is less likely to put me on the floor.

Thanks @Montana rider !
I haven't mounted mine yet

But they were kind enough to swap out the four for the five with no up charge I just paid return shipping.

So in addition to having good prices that vendor seems to take care of its customers...