[sanjuro]

N.Y. steamed over terror fund cutbacks

By LARRY McSHANE, Associated Press Writer2 hours, 23 minutes ago

From Times Square and the Empire State Building to the Brooklyn Bridge and the Statue of Liberty, New York is a city of spectacular landmarks. Ask any of the 41 million tourists who visited last year.

But according to the Homeland Security Department, New York has no national monuments or icons — a determination that led to a 40 percent cut in anti-terrorism funding.

New Yorkers are seething over the news, and some are demanding the firing of Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff.

Rep. Peter King (news, bio, voting record), R-N.Y., charged that the Bush administration had "declared war on New York" with its decision to reduce anti-terrorism funding by $83 million while increases went to cities like Jacksonville, Fla., Louisville, Ky., and Omaha, Neb.

"I'm not begrudging any other city, but why would you cut the No. 1 target in the country by 40 percent?" said King, who demanded an investigation. "How can you possibly justify that?"

Sen. Charles Schumer (news, bio, voting record), D-N.Y., on Thursday advised President Bush to avoid the city until the administration comes up with some more money to keep New York safe.

"This is wrong and unfair, but also outrageous," Schumer said. "The bottom line is this is abandoning New York."

The cutback comes nearly five years after the terrorist attack that killed 2,749 people at the World Trade Center, and a week after a Pakistani immigrant was convicted of conspiring to blow up the subway station at Herald Square, the site of Macy's flagship store, one of the world's most popular shopping destinations.

In Washington, Homeland Security Undersecretary George Foresman said his agency would review its finding that New York City has no national monuments or icons that would be at risk of terrorist attack.

"We're going to go back and look at it," said Foresman, who said that the decision was made partly on attendance figures. A federal worksheet based on a variety of data was used to determine the "icon" status and the funding.

Chertoff defended the cut on Thursday, while acknowledging that New York City was still at the top of the U.S. threat list. He said the nearly $125 million in grants for New York were in line with the average amounts the city has gotten in the years since Sept. 11. He added that New York has gotten more than $500 million in all, and that is more than twice the total received by the next-highest-risk city, Los Angeles.

"When actual decisions get made it tends to rub people who came out on the short end the wrong way. We are always willing to listen to criticism," he said in a speech at the Brookings Institution, a Washington think tank.

The local tabloids have savaged Chertoff, with an editorial cartoon in the Daily News comparing him to Benedict Arnold. "Terror? What Terror?" asked a mocking front-page headline in the New York Post. "Feds To City: Drop Dead," read page one of the Daily News.

Rep. John Sweeney (news, bio, voting record), R-N.Y., called for Chertoff's resignation. Mayor Michael Bloomberg was less militant, although he questioned what was happening in Washington.

"I don't have to list the Brooklyn Bridge, the United Nations and Rockefeller Center and the Statue of Liberty and Empire State Building and the Stock Exchange," Bloomberg said. "So you really wonder what was going through somebody's mind."

Assorted terror plots targeting the subways and other city landmarks have come to light since the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. Schemes have mentioned the United Nations, the Holland and Lincoln Tunnels, and the federal building housing local FBI offices.

NYPD officials said the drastic cut in funding ignored the city's uncomfortable position as the top target for terrorists to strike. The department was depending on the federal money to:

• Finance an $81.5 million proposal to safeguard Lower Manhattan and parts of midtown with a surveillance "ring of steel" modeled after security measures in London's financial district.

• Pay half of the $200 million annual cost of heavily armored patrols — called Operation Atlas — and other current security measures, including protection for the nation's largest mass transit system.

• Provide $38 million for counterterrorism training and equipment, such as biological and radioactive detection devices.

One out-of-towner visiting the Empire State Building on Thursday had no problem with the federal cutbacks.

"At some point, you have to stop pouring in money," said George Kent, 77, of Reno, Nev. "I think the national treasury needs the money."

 

[dante]

:redhot: :redhot: :redhot: :redhot: :redhot: :redhot: :redhot:

anybody want to bet that red states just "happened" to get more funding and blue states just happened to get less? god I hate this administration...

 

[Mackie]

Yes, Sanjuro, I agree. New York City got screwed on this one.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Do you people actually READ the articles, or are you too busy getting brainwashed by the writers' agenda?

He added that New York has gotten more than $500 million in all, and that is more than twice the total received by the next-highest-risk city, Los Angeles.

 

[The Amish]

WHat does it matter. 9/11 was a government conspiracy in no way affiliated with any terrorist orginazations remember!

 

[RenegadeRick]

WHat does it matter. 9/11 was a government conspiracy in no way affiliated with any terrorist orginazations remember!

true 'dat, but it's all about the money!

Cuts to anti-terror funding means fewer peeping tom cameras, fewer big-screen monitors, etc., etc., etc.

 

[sanjuro]

Do you people actually READ the articles, or are you too busy getting brainwashed by the writers' agenda?

He added that New York has gotten more than $500 million in all, and that is more than twice the total received by the next-highest-risk city, Los Angeles.

Twice as much money? Not including the incidents Jack Bauer solved, how many terrorist attacks have there been in LA? There has only been in two in New York though.

And talking about landmarks to protect, I think of Empire State Building, the Subway, Statue of Liberty, and Wall Street. I can't think of a landmark in LA which any foreigner would immediately recognize and define as American.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Twice as much money? Not including the incidents Jack Bauer solved, how many terrorist attacks have there been in LA? There has only been in two in New York though.

And talking about landmarks to protect, I think of Empire State Building, the Subway, Statue of Liberty, and Wall Street. I can't think of a landmark in LA which any foreigner would immediately recognize and define as American.

Everyone recognizes that those are landmarks From what i read, they were just classified another way, but still accounted for. Again, you read ONE stupid article and let it decide your whole stance on an issue. Irresponsible.

 

[sanjuro]

No I let my opinion be swayed by Schumer. Whatever the senior senator from NY says, I agree with!

What opinion should have about the 40% cut to Federal budget for NYC's security? Good way to save money? Hope nothing bad happens again?

 

[BurlyShirley]

No I let my opinion be swayed by Schumer. Whatever the senior senator from NY says, I agree with!

What opinion should have about the 40% cut to Federal budget for NYC's security? Good way to save money? Hope nothing bad happens again?

The problem is that you have no concept of what a 40% cut means...Perhaps after 911, they went WAY overboard with defense spending. That they were getting more than TWICE the amount of the second largest city should tell you something there...

You expect ANY state senator to be happy that he loses some pork? Even AFTER the 40% cut, NYC STILL gets more than any other city...

Its really pretty simple.

 

[Echo]

You expect ANY state senator to be happy that he loses some pork?

And there we have the real reason he's pissed ladies and gents.

 

[sanjuro]

The problem is that you have no concept of what a 40% cut means...Perhaps after 911, they went WAY overboard with defense spending. That they were getting more than TWICE the amount of the second largest city should tell you something there...

You expect ANY state senator to be happy that he loses some pork? Even AFTER the 40% cut, NYC STILL gets more than any other city...

Its really pretty simple.

The question is since there has been no attacks in NY since 9/11, is due to an increased security budget or just dumb luck?

The Dept of Homeland Security thinks only 60% of the current budget is required. I suppose the other question is what is going to be cut:

• Finance an $81.5 million proposal to safeguard Lower Manhattan and parts of midtown with a surveillance "ring of steel" modeled after security measures in London's financial district.

• Pay half of the $200 million annual cost of heavily armored patrols — called Operation Atlas — and other current security measures, including protection for the nation's largest mass transit system.

• Provide $38 million for counterterrorism training and equipment, such as biological and radioactive detection devices.

How necessary are these things?

And I don't care what other cities except for San Francisco and other cities with major subway systems receive. Besides that I live here, there are many recognizable landmarks as well as BART.

People are not streaming to see Music Row or Titans Coliseum (except for UT fans).

 

[Chunky Munkey]

Do you people actually READ the articles, or are you too busy getting brainwashed by the writers' agenda?

HEAR HEAR! I HEARD THAT BURLY SHIRLEY!!! THE VOICE of an EDUCATED MAN!!! YOU are SOOO RIGHT!!! It's like the local paper here, they are SO lop sided one opinion democratic that everyone in this state knows it so no one reads the crap they spew! They're hurting for subscribers!

I DO have to say though, it's a DAMN SHAME those terrorists didn't fly all five planes into YANKEES stadim right in the middle of a ball game with a PACKED HOUSE full of YANKEES FANS!!

What I'd PAY in GOOD MONEY for THAT PAY PER VIEW!

Hell, I'd contribute to THAT cause! Where do I send the check? How do you spell Ben Lodden? Bin Laden? Ben Ladin?

ALRIGHT ENOUGH WITH THE RED BLOCKS ALREADY!!! GEEZE! New Yorkers are notorious for dishing it out crap to everyone else! MAKE ONE CRACK on 'em, and they go running, "MOMMY MOMMY did you hear what that bad man said about me!?''

LIGHTEN UP!! I'm BEING SARCASTIC ALREADY!

:redhot:

 

[sanjuro]

Explanation: Apparently NYC faxed in their application for money, when they supposed to submit it electronically.

City Has Itself to Blame for Terror Cuts, U.S. Says
By AL BAKER and DIANE CARDWELL

The federal agency distributing $711 million in antiterrorism money to cities around the nation found numerous flaws in New York City's application and gave poor grades to many of its proposals.

Its criticism extended to some of the city's most highly publicized counterterrorism measures.

In a report that outlines why it cut back New York City's share of antiterrorism funds by roughly 40 percent, the Department of Homeland Security was so critical of some highly viewed local measures — like Operation Atlas, in which hundreds of extra police officers carry out counterterrorism duties around the city each day — that the Police Department and other city agencies must now seek further federal approval before drawing on the money they were given to pay for those programs.

Federal officials said yesterday that the city had not only done a poor job of articulating its needs in its application, but had also mishandled the application itself, failing to file it electronically as required, instead faxing its request to Washington.

City and state officials insisted that they had made no mistakes. And a state official provided a written acknowledgment from the federal government saying that the city's application for grant money had been "successfully submitted" and said that the city could "log in" any time to view the application.

New York City received $124.5 million from the Department of Homeland Security, about 40 percent less than the $207.5 million it received the year before. Many smaller cities around the country, like Charlotte, N.C., saw their shares increase sharply.

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg questioned yesterday whether old-fashioned pork barrel politics was at play in doling out the money in an election year. He was one of several elected officials who moved on different tracks to uncover how the decisions were made, with an eye toward revising that process.

"We tried to do an analysis of some of the moneys and whether or not they were given out for political reasons, and in fact in many of the places where they got money — but arguably there's no threat — there are close elections either at the Senate level or the House level," the mayor said. "Now, whether that was their motive I have no idea."

The White House tried to minimize the effect on New York. The grants will be reconsidered each year and could change if "some grand and unforeseen need arises," said Tony Snow, the White House press secretary. "The point of homeland security, as I said before, is to provide security for the entire homeland," he said. "And certainly no disrespect meant to New York with $124 million for this coming year."

The report, obtained yesterday, pointed out opposing views held by cities and the federal government over how antiterrorism money should be spent and, as an extension of those views, how terrorism should be fought.

City officials have used federal money to subsidize continuing costs, like paying overtime to officers. The federal government, on the other hand, wants the grants to pay for semipermanent safeguards that can increase security over the long term, like improvements in communications systems, better gas masks and increased training.

The report faulted the city for not adequately explaining why the money being requested could reduce risks.

Though the report said the city was in the top 25 percent of urban areas at risk, it rated the city in the bottom 25 percent in the quality of its application. It rated the Police Department's counterterrorism program and Operation Atlas as below average in sustainability, a criticism of the continuing overtime costs.

Eight of the city's programs including the counterterrorism division and Operation Atlas, as well as some health and training programs — fell in the bottom 15 percent, meaning any federal money used toward them will need to be specifically approved.

Elected city officials were especially stunned that the report said New York had no national monuments or icons. The city's application was evaluated by so-called peer-review panels of five to seven people with varying backgrounds from 47 states and affirmed by government analysts at the Department of Homeland Security.

Angry officials in New York zeroed in on the peer review process yesterday, trying to determine who evaluated the programs and whether their judgments were clouded by a desire to steer security money to their own areas. City officials questioned whether the reviewers had expertise in antiterrorism efforts.

Members of New York's Congressional delegation presented a united front in pledging action to change the allocations. Representative Peter T. King, a Republican and chairman of the House Committee on Homeland Security, said he would hold hearings to investigate the process, while Senators Charles E. Schumer and Hillary Rodham Clinton, both Democrats, wrote letters to Michael Chertoff, the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, demanding a full explanation.

In Washington, Mayor Anthony A. Williams described the decision to cut his city's allocation by 40 percent as shortsighted.

A spokeswoman, Sharon Gang, said the Homeland Security Department did not give much of a rationale for the cuts and that their proposals rated average or above average on almost all counts.

"It sounds like they made a unilateral, gut decision not based on our application," Ms. Gang said. "And they scored other locations higher."

Officials in New York said the impact of the cash drain would be felt.

"We have a counterterrorism center that would deal with all of the potential scenarios that we have been studying that we have to be prepared for that could be dramatically affected by any cut in funding," said Fire Commissioner Nicholas A. Scoppetta. "It's as though Washington is not going to be convinced of the need until they have another terrible incident in a place like New York or Washington."

Paul J. Browne, a senior aide to Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly and the department's chief spokesman, said: "The N.Y.P.D. will continue to do what it needs to do to keep the city safe," he said. "We'll just be doing it without D.H.S. stepping up to the level expected of it."

He said the department's counterterrorism work had been essential in defending the city since 9/11 "What more evidence do they need?" he said.

Stephen C. King, a lawyer who specializes in emergency-response and domestic security issues at Hunton & Williams in New York, said he could not understand the 40 percent cut to the city. "I'll have to look at it closer," he said, "but I can't wrap my arms around that one."

Though the federal officials said the city did not file properly, the city said state officials filed its package, and a state official said its package of applications was filed electronically on March 2, the deadline.

In an interview, George W. Foresman, under secretary for preparedness as the Department of Homeland Security, applauded some of the security work being done by New York, while raising the question of just what is the proper use of the federal funds.

"Do you pay for what are viewed as basic capabilities; law enforcement, fire, E.M.S., public health, emergency management?" he asked. "Whose role is it to pay for that, versus whose role is it to pay for specialized training and equipment for fire, E.M.S. and law enforcement?"

Mr. Chertoff said yesterday: "There was no suggestion about anything we did that New York is not the No. 1 terror target. But I do think it's fair to ask this question: After a city gets $500 million, more than twice as much as the next-largest city, is it correct to assume they should continue to get the same amount of money year after year after year after year with everybody else dividing up what remains?"

Still, Mr. Schumer called the episode an "absurdity," saying the grading system did not make sense.

"It would be as if you got 800's on your boards and Stanford Law School rejected you because you put the stamp on upside down," he said.

 

[blue]

Why the hell do we spend so much worthless $$$ on "anti-terrorism" crap?

Quit living in fear, pvssys.

 

[biggins]

Why the hell do we spend so much worthless $$$ on "anti-terrorism" crap?

Quit living in fear, pvssys.

gotta agree with ya there. they dcan dump all the money they want into it but the fact remains that the ones terrorising have much stronger convictions and faith than us so you probably arent gonna be stopping them anyway.

 

[rooftest]

gotta agree with ya there. they dcan dump all the money they want into it but the fact remains that the ones terrorising have much stronger convictions and faith than us so you probably arent gonna be stopping them anyway.

.... although we haven't seen another one.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

.... although we haven't seen another one.

Yet...

 

[sanjuro]

gotta agree with ya there. they dcan dump all the money they want into it but the fact remains that the ones terrorising have much stronger convictions and faith than us so you probably arent gonna be stopping them anyway.

So building bomb detectors and steel barricades won't stop a truck bomb? Or more police in the subways can't stop a nerve gas attack?

Maybe we should remove metal detectors from airports. They didn't do anything to prevent 9/11. Or maybe we might want to spend more money to hire trained professionals to run the airport screenings instead of the rent-a-cops who used to man these security checks pre Sept 11th.

 

[rooftest]

Yet...

I remember you guys started giving your "warnings" in Oct, 2001. "There is a 90% chance that a terrorist attack will happen this month." Yeah - just repeat that every month, and if you get lucky, people will forget what a dumb ass you are.

 

[Inclag]

I remember you guys started giving your "warnings" in Oct, 2001. "There is a 90% chance that a terrorist attack will happen this month." Yeah - just repeat that every month, and if you get lucky, people will forget what a dumb ass you are.

That must of worked with Bush and his terror alert....

 

[Chunky Munkey]

Look, funding NYC or ANY other state, BLUE OR RED ain't gonna stop some stupid otherwise unedumicated kid from being told he'll get 72 virgins if he straps a bomb to his chest and runs into a building. OUR BIG PROBLEM PEOPLE IS OUR OWN SYSTEM and BY that I mean LAWYERS that take up sides for these morons when they get profiled. Lets face it, ever heard of a chinese extremest? Korean extremest? Christian terrorist? Mormon Terrorist? Hindu Terrorist? Ever hear a terrorist's name, BOB or DAVE or RADO, or SVEN OR TOSHIMOTO? NO! It's always the same people. HELLOOooo!

We also have to stop worrying about rules that hinder out people from doing their job. Things like "Rules of Engagement." If some guys wearing a bed sheet with sandles and has an automatic weapon aimed at me under it and I can't see his hands, I don't want to wait till I hear automatic gun shots at sixty rounds a minute before I can pull my trigger. You point a gun at a US solder, you die! We're at war! We also got to stop worrying about other cultures sacred stuff like mosques and religious sacred grounds. If a terroist goes into a mosque and baracades himself in, go in after him. It's a BUILDING people! It can be rebuilt! They say they think Osama Bin Laden is hiding on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. But US troops can't go into "CERTAIN" areas of Afghanistan as due to them being Oooo ''SACRED TRIBAL AREAS." Ooooo we better not do that and offend them! Jesus, we went in and got rid of the TALIBAN for these people! WE FREED THEM! What the hell are we worried about? Point that littel fact out and go in, find the sucker and kill him! Then worry about them being ticked off later! What are they going to do, GET MAD AT US!? THEY ALREADY ARE! THEY HATE US! So why are we so damn delicate with these people. Get down right nasty, say ''get the hell out of the way,'' and go in and get the job done!

We have to fight terror where it flourishes. Not when it gets over here. Fight it there before it gets this far. We got to stop caring about rules of engagement and offending certian leaders and their people. GO IN AND FIND THESE PEOPLE AND ERRADICATE THEM.

Enough!:redhot:

 

[Silver]

Lets face it, ever heard of a chinese extremest? Korean extremest? Christian terrorist? Mormon Terrorist? Hindu Terrorist? Ever hear a terrorist's name, BOB or DAVE or RADO, or SVEN OR TOSHIMOTO? NO! It's always the same people. HELLOOooo!

Right off the top of my head, I can think of a Japanese terrorist (nerve gas in a subway) a Sikh terrorist (Air India bombing) and a Christian terrorist (Rudolph) plus a good ole' homeboy who blew up a federal building in Oklahoma.

 

[Slugman]

Right off the top of my head, I can think of a Japanese terrorist (nerve gas in a subway) a Sikh terrorist (Air India bombing) and a Christian terrorist (Rudolph) plus a good ole' homeboy who blew up a federal building in Oklahoma.

Or how about Melvin, Louis, and Henry?

Hijacked Plane Targeted Nuke Complex 29 years ago

OAK RIDGE, Tenn. (AP) - Twenty-nine years ago, hijackers took over an
airliner with 27 passengers and four crew aboard and threatened to
crash into the government's nuclear weapons production complex in Oak
Ridge.

``They let us know that if we didn't have the money by X hour then we
were going to dive into Oak Ridge,'' co-pilot Harold Johnson recalled
in an interview last week from his Memphis home. ``And there was no
doubt in my mind that we would have done just that.''

Johnson would be threatened with his life and shot in the arm before
the 32-hour ordeal finally ended Nov. 12, 1972, in Havana.

Airline hijackings to Cuba were common in those days. The
commandeering of the Southern Airways DC9 with its '70ish smiley face
on the nose was one of about 30 hijackings that year.

But this was one of the few times in American aviation history -
before last week's terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and
the Pentagon - in which hijackers threatened to use an airplane as a
weapon.

Johnson, who retired in 1983, said domestic security measures were
increased after his flight. But he said the government didn't go far
enough.

``For a long, long time, it was something that I thought could happen
someday, but had just hoped and prayed that it never would,'' he
said.

Unlike the recent hijackers, the three Americans who took control of
Johnson's Memphis-to-Miami-flight had little training and virtually
no plan. They did have guns, a hand grenade and a grudge against
Detroit, where two of them had been charged with rape.

Hijacker Melvin Cale grew up in nearby Knoxville and worked in Oak
Ridge before moving to Detroit with his half brother Louis Moore,
another hijacker. Henry Jackson of Detroit completed the trio.

They commandeered the plane about 10 minutes after a stopover in
Birmingham, Ala., crashing through the cockpit door with an arm
around a flight attendant's throat and a gun to her head.

They wanted a $10 million ransom, 10 parachutes and 10 bulletproof
vests. The plane eventually reached Knoxville and began circling Oak
Ridge, site of the Y-12 nuclear weapons plant and their specific
target - a nuclear research reactor at the Oak Ridge National
Laboratory.

``It was surreal in a sense,'' said Jim Alexander, a former
government spokesman at Oak Ridge. ``We would look up in the sky and
see this jet airliner circling. It was high, but it never left.''

In his book, ``Odyssey of Terror,'' the plane's captain, William
Haas, wrote that the hijackers became enraged when their demands
received a lukewarm response. They forced Haas to begin a steep
descent on Oak Ridge, pulling out only when the airline said it would
comply.

Johnson, however, said the plane never got below 8,000 to 10,000 feet
and that was only so the hijackers could identify Oak Ridge.

The airline finally came up with $2 million for the hijackers, who
then forced the pilots to fly to Havana. They shot Johnson in the arm
during a shootout with FBI agents when the plane stopped to refuel in
Orlando, Fla.

The hijackers were arrested in Cuba and imprisoned for eight years.
The trio returned in 1980 to Birmingham, where they were sentenced to
20- to 25-year terms.

Haas retired in 1988 and died earlier this year. His widow said he
never would have crashed the DC9 into Oak Ridge.

``There is not a pilot in the United States that flies commercially
that would do anything like that,'' Ann Haas said. ``He might make
the hijackers think that was what he was going to do, but never,
never would they use it as a target.''

Link - http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/0109/msg00284.html

 

[Changleen]

Look, funding NYC or ANY other state, BLUE OR RED ain't gonna stop some stupid otherwise unedumicated kid from being told he'll get 72 virgins if he straps a bomb to his chest and runs into a building. OUR BIG PROBLEM PEOPLE IS OUR OWN SYSTEM and BY that I mean LAWYERS that take up sides for these morons when they get profiled. Lets face it, ever heard of a chinese extremest? Korean extremest? Christian terrorist? Mormon Terrorist? Hindu Terrorist? Ever hear a terrorist's name, BOB or DAVE or RADO, or SVEN OR TOSHIMOTO? NO! It's always the same people. HELLOOooo!

We also have to stop worrying about rules that hinder out people from doing their job. Things like "Rules of Engagement." If some guys wearing a bed sheet with sandles and has an automatic weapon aimed at me under it and I can't see his hands, I don't want to wait till I hear automatic gun shots at sixty rounds a minute before I can pull my trigger. You point a gun at a US solder, you die! We're at war! We also got to stop worrying about other cultures sacred stuff like mosques and religious sacred grounds. If a terroist goes into a mosque and baracades himself in, go in after him. It's a BUILDING people! It can be rebuilt! They say they think Osama Bin Laden is hiding on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. But US troops can't go into "CERTAIN" areas of Afghanistan as due to them being Oooo ''SACRED TRIBAL AREAS." Ooooo we better not do that and offend them! Jesus, we went in and got rid of the TALIBAN for these people! WE FREED THEM! What the hell are we worried about? Point that littel fact out and go in, find the sucker and kill him! Then worry about them being ticked off later! What are they going to do, GET MAD AT US!? THEY ALREADY ARE! THEY HATE US! So why are we so damn delicate with these people. Get down right nasty, say ''get the hell out of the way,'' and go in and get the job done!

We have to fight terror where it flourishes. Not when it gets over here. Fight it there before it gets this far. We got to stop caring about rules of engagement and offending certian leaders and their people. GO IN AND FIND THESE PEOPLE AND ERRADICATE THEM.

Enough!:redhot:

So you want to turn into your enemy in order to try and defeat them? And as your own generals are saying, if you kill one person, you are spawning 10 more to replace him. Constructive.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

So you want to turn into your enemy in order to try and defeat them? And as your own generals are saying, if you kill one person, you are spawning 10 more to replace him. Constructive.

It's not turning into our enemy...if we did that, there would be a whole slew of Hadditha incidents...or worse...why? Because that's what terrorists do...Are the Marines going to jack an Air France flight and fly it into downtown Paris because Pierre doesn't like Catholicism? No.... Is the Navy going to dispatch Ohio class nukes to deal with Estonia's beratement of how we're trying to find Osama?? No.

What needs to happen is a paradigm shift. There will no longer be any "get blown up first, then defend yourselves". It will be "you see a gun, you kill the person with that gun". And all the bleeding hearts can espouse all they want about "It'll beget more innocent killings...blah blah blah..." Then why don't you sign up and get your ass shot at? We'll see how long it takes for you to change your tune.

Oh, we can't go into this area where we freaking saw a known terrorist (OBL or otherwise) go? Talk to the business end of my M4.

Is it bullying on a global scale? Hell yes. Have we already done that to certain extents? Hell yes. Is the U.S. the most powerful nation right now? For all intents and purposes right now, yes. Do we get to protect our homeland from people that want to kill us? Why not, most other countries are not nearly (and when I say nearly, I mean they actually torture people. Not just get them naked and slap them around for sh*ts and giggles. I mean cut, burn, etc.) as nice as we are. "Oh you don't want to answer the question when we'll be attacked....ok...then sit in this cell for the next 20 years while thousands more of our countrymen die." Sounds fair to me.

We never should of become the world's policeman in the first place. Like someone else said awhile back, "Everyone pisses on Batman until Gotham needs saving." Then once Gotham is "safe" the crapfest starts again. But this time it's all home brew. Ducky.

/Rant off
Flame on....I'm going home and riding.

 

[Chunky Munkey]

I don't want to be like the enemy. They kill cuz they have nothing to live for. In war, in any situation, you don't let the other guy attack first or you risk losing. So why allow the world to dictate to us how to fight? Why agree with our OWN rules of engagement? If I had a son being drafted, I'd hide his ass until they say he can fire at any threat. Waiting till some guy gets a lucky shot and kills him first is bull! When a soldier sees a weapon and hollars, hands up or drop it, you got one more DROP it coming out of my voice before I fire a warning shot. If the barrel goes in my direction, I'm acting first, cus unlike the other guy, I HAVE something to live for and I VALUE life, MINE! My life is not worth losing over THEIRS! Am I saying my life is more valueable than theirs. YES I AM! Cus I don't go around everyday thinking of who I can kill and how many I can do it. I live peaceably. But sometimes you have to fight to exterminate a bad infection. That's all. Everyone in Iraq was DANCING on Sadaams statues. Spitting on his image. Now, it's GO HOME AMERICA! That's our fault for not taking charge with a NO ACCEPTION policy. You wear robes, you're gonna be searched. You make sudden moves around a soldier or have a gun in your hand, you're messing with your life. Don't point it. If someone goes into a sacred area, screw getting permission to go in from the government first. GO IN AND GET THE MORON! How quickly people forget! Look at Sadaam. They have already forgotten what we did for them and want us out! So if we go into a sacred area in Afghanistan and erradicate Osama Bin Laden, you think anyone is going to care in a year that we marched on their sacred ground!?

I have footage of our Airmen shot down over Iraq from the first war on Video. Our guys were beaten. Some of our citizens are BEHEADED ALIVE! How would YOU like it? Especially if you see mpg video all over the net of your kid getting killed like Eric Berg. And what do we do, a few soldiers let a dog bark at them close up to put them in fear. They made them get naked and do stupid poses. ALL THAT IS SO BAD and inhumane of us in comparison to cutting the detainee's head off while still alive. The reporter that just was freed. She said they treated her fine. Till she got home. Our female soldiers are RAPED repeatedly with broken arms and legs and what do we do? We take Kodak moments! The female soldier that shows a cigarette in her mouth pointing with the thumbs up, if I had a company, I'd give her a great paying job when she gets out.

These people are savage. They are not anywhere near civil like we are. They sit outside mud huts they call a cafe with bare feet on dirt roads and want Nuclear Weapons? You take their side and you're nuts.

What we do to them is put them in prison, and give them food. You'd be lucky to have your own excrement offered to you over there for food. That's if they'd feed you at all between beatings with electrical prods and baseball bats.

Our nation has to STOP reporters from taking along cameras on raids. Reporters should be getting reports at to what happens on the battle field. NOT BE IN IT! Things happen in war. It's tough but the means of the many out weigh the few. Some innocent get killed along the way. It's a shame but that's war. We wouldn't have had to go back to Iraq if our OWN STUPID leaders would stop running our military when they are in a war. Stormin Norman said, we could have gone RIGHT on in to Baghdad and got Sadaam Hussien but Washington said, "No! We only wanted to get him out of Kuwait." Just like PATTON when he wanted to use the energy created and moral to march right on into Russia and our leaders stopped him from finishing the job. Our country has to STOP getting involved once we commit and allow our boys to DO THEIR JOB! The military is a career that is trained to defend and attack when it's time. THAT is what it's for. Not just a tax payer sponge to give people a living their whole life and if there is a war, let someone else go fight! Their trained to use deadly force. ANYONE here in this country has their life TODAY due to all the young boys of THEIR time that went over to Germany and DIED on D-DAY! It's brave dead American young boys that gave their lives and alive brave American Veterans that risked dying that are the ones directly responsible for what WE HAVE TODAY! No one told them, "That's a church, you can't go in after the guy in there," or, "Don't shoot at him yet, you have to wait till he throws his gernade at you first or wait till he takes a shot at you first before you can shoot. Okay, now he shot at you, you can fire back. Oh, I guess he was a good shot. Oh well, you're dead, but at least you didn't break any rules." YEH RIGHT!

D-Day, not a mention of it in the news today over the big 666 thing. I have black and white pictures of D-Day as it happend at Normany on Omaha Beach. And I can tell you, the bodys all over the beach that my father shot from his LST and on the beach while pulling bodys and wounded back onto the LST are not stage extras posing like they're dead!

And to what do we get from Western Europe for breaking the Natzi grip? A slap in the face by FRANCE just for starters. Yeh if you didn't know, the president of France was telling Sadaam our plans before we went in and where our inspectors were going to look next before we did. I think France right now should be speaking English right about now if it were MY nation to run. You fraternize with the enemy, you are the enemy!

We've got WAY to many bleeding hearts in this country.

Go ahead and justify their side...

 

[Silver]

Just because our behavior is arguably better does not imply that our behavior is right. Dehumanizing the enemy also is a bad habit to get into...where do you think infants with bullet holes in foreheads come from?

My rule of thumb is that if the best excuse you can come up with for something you've done is that at least it isn't as bad as Hussein/Stalin/Hilter/etc. then you've probably done something horribly immoral.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Just because our behavior is arguably better does not imply that our behavior is right. Dehumanizing the enemy also is a bad habit to get into...where do you think infants with bullet holes in foreheads come from?

My rule of thumb is that if the best excuse you can come up with for something you've done is that at least it isn't as bad as Hussein/Stalin/Hilter/etc. then you've probably done something horribly immoral.

I say that every time I leave the bathroom.

 

[Changleen]

It sounds like 4 years ago in here...

 

[Chunky Munkey]

To the BLEEDING HEARTS out there giving me red blocks without the balls to put their name, just for posting my freedom of my opinion, let me say this. War is war. The FREEDOM which you excersize DAILY did not come FREE! It came at a COST! The cost of thousands of AMERICAN LIVES who lived before you years ago who lost their lives fighting in WARS overseas to protect your freedom today and this country from take over. It's certain "YOUTH" of this country that they fought to protect, youth that were yet to be born by that meaning born in the 70's 80's and 90's who all seem to think we're free just because we're a the most powerful nation, but they have NO idea what sacrifices were made by young men their age who went overseas to fight for freedom years ago and who died. If it was NOT for those soldier who are called Veterans now, these certain individuals I speak of would be up to their ears in Wiener Schnitzel and Bratwurst that is, if their parents weren't exterminated first thus they wouldn't be here. Things happen in war. It's the way it is. But it's the only way to preserve freedom. You have to fight fire with fire sometimes. You have to look at these people for what they are, people who have NO care for human life and people who live to kill and enjoy doing it. They are murderers. Sometimes you have to dehumanize them and remove yourself from your personal beliefs and use their own tactics to rid them from society so that once gone the rest of the society can live CIVILY with respect for others and their right to freedom. So don't tell me about dehumanizing and becoming like the enemy. You owe your freedom to people who had the courage to go to war and fortunately for you and I, they won.

Just my opinion, but it's a major button of mine as I have seen the photos taken over there by my dead father. But go ahead and use your freedom my father faught to give you and keep arguing with me cuz that seems to be what a select few like to do. I'm not arguing it anymore. I know why I'm am in the safest most powerfull country in the world and I thank ALL those men who faught for my freedom. To them I owe my gratitude, and I am forever in their debt. To them I thank you! This goes for Desert Storm, operation Iraqi Freedome and our soldiers around the world today.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

To the BLEEDING HEARTS out there giving me red blocks without the balls to put their name, just for posting my freedom of my opinion, let me say this. War is war. The FREEDOM which you excersize DAILY did not come FREE! It came at a COST! The cost of thousands of AMERICAN LIVES who lived before you years ago who lost their lives fighting in WARS overseas to protect your freedom today and this country from take over. It's certain "YOUTH" of this country that they fought to protect, youth that were yet to be born by that meaning born in the 70's 80's and 90's who all seem to think we're free just because we're a the most powerful nation, but they have NO idea what sacrifices were made by young men their age who went overseas to fight for freedom years ago and who died. If it was NOT for those soldier who are called Veterans now, these certain individuals I speak of would be up to their ears in Wiener Schnitzel and Bratwurst that is, if their parents weren't exterminated first thus they wouldn't be here. Things happen in war. It's the way it is. But it's the only way to preserve freedom. You have to fight fire with fire sometimes. You have to look at these people for what they are, people who have NO care for human life and people who live to kill and enjoy doing it. They are murderers. Sometimes you have to dehumanize them and remove yourself from your personal beliefs and use their own tactics to rid them from society so that once gone the rest of the society can live CIVILY with respect for others and their right to freedom. So don't tell me about dehumanizing and becoming like the enemy. You owe your freedom to people who had the courage to go to war and fortunately for you and I, they won.

Just my opinion, but it's a major button of mine as I have seen the photos taken over there by my dead father. But go ahead and use your freedom my father faught to give you and keep arguing with me cuz that seems to be what a select few like to do. I'm not arguing it anymore. I know why I'm am in the safest most powerfull country in the world and I thank ALL those men who faught for my freedom. To them I owe my gratitude, and I am forever in their debt. To them I thank you! This goes for Desert Storm, operation Iraqi Freedome and our soldiers around the world today.

First, I didn't give you no red.

Second, I wonder what those veterans of wars past would think of us now. Do you think that they would want us to torture people (and prisoners of war)? Like someone else already said, being just better than Hitler is way too low to set the bar. We should stand as an example to the rest of the world, especially since we act like we own the high moral ground. So, if we are going to act like that, we should actually act morally, and it is never right to commit torture. Plus, studies have shown that torture is a highly unreliable way of obtaining information anyway, so what do we get out of it? We get enemies, that's what. We can't win the hearts and minds of others by waterboarding them.

 

[BuddhaRoadkill]

Guess NY had a point. This is disgusting. :mumble:

July 12, 2006
U.S. Terror Targets: Petting Zoo and Flea Market?
By ERIC LIPTON
New York Times

WASHINGTON, July 11 — It reads like a tally of terrorist targets that a child might have written: Old MacDonald’s Petting Zoo, the Amish Country Popcorn factory, the Mule Day Parade, the Sweetwater Flea Market and an unspecified “Beach at End of a Street.”

But the inspector general of the Department of Homeland Security, in a report released Tuesday, found that the list was not child’s play: all these “unusual or out-of-place” sites “whose criticality is not readily apparent” are inexplicably included in the federal antiterrorism database.

The National Asset Database, as it is known, is so flawed, the inspector general found, that as of January, Indiana, with 8,591 potential terrorist targets, had 50 percent more listed sites than New York (5,687) and more than twice as many as California (3,212), ranking the state the most target-rich place in the nation.

The database is used by the Homeland Security Department to help divvy up the hundreds of millions of dollars in antiterrorism grants each year, including the program announced in May that cut money to New York City and Washington by 40 percent, while significantly increasing spending for cities including Louisville, Ky., and Omaha.

“We don’t find it embarrassing,” said the department’s deputy press secretary, Jarrod Agen. “The list is a valuable tool.”

But the audit says that lower-level department officials agreed that some older information in the inventory “was of low quality and that they had little faith in it.”

“The presence of large numbers of out-of-place assets taints the credibility of the data,” the report says.

In addition to the petting zoo, in Woodville, Ala., and the Mule Day Parade in Columbia, Tenn., the auditors questioned many entries, including “Nix’s Check Cashing,” “Mall at Sears,” “Ice Cream Parlor,” “Tackle Shop,” “Donut Shop,” “Anti-Cruelty Society” and “Bean Fest.”

Even people connected to some of those businesses or events are baffled at their inclusion as possible terrorist targets.

“Seems like someone has gone overboard,” said Larry Buss, who helps organize the Apple and Pork Festival in Clinton, Ill. “Their time could be spent better doing other things, like providing security for the country.”

Angela McNabb, manager of the Sweetwater Flea Market, which is 50 miles from Knoxville, Tenn., said: “I don’t know where they get their information. We are talking about a flea market here.”

New York City officials, who have questioned the rationale for the reduction in this year’s antiterrorism grants, were similarly blunt.

“Now we know why the Homeland Security grant formula came out as wacky as it was,” Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, said Tuesday. “This report is the smoking gun that thoroughly indicts the system.”

The source of the problems, the audit said, appears to be insufficient definitions or standards for inclusion provided to the states, which submit lists of locations for the database.

New York, for example, lists only 2 percent of the nation’s banking and finance sector assets, which ranks it between North Dakota and Missouri. Washington State lists nearly twice as many national monuments and icons as the District of Columbia.

Montana, one of the least populous states in the nation, turned up with far more assets than big-population states including Massachusetts, North Carolina and New Jersey.

The inspector general questions whether many of the sites listed in whole categories — like the 1,305 casinos, 163 water parks, 159 cruise ships, 244 jails, 3,773 malls, 718 mortuaries and 571 nursing homes — should even be included in the tally.

But the report also notes that the list “may have too few assets in essential areas.” It apparently does not include many major business and finance operations or critical national telecommunications hubs.

The department does not release the list of 77,069 sites, but the report said that as of January it included 17,327 commercial properties like office buildings, malls and shopping centers, 12,019 government facilities, 8,402 public health buildings, 7,889 power plants and 2,963 sites with chemical or hazardous materials.

George W. Foresman, the department’s under secretary for preparedness, said the audit misunderstood the purpose of the database, as it was an inventory or catalog of national assets, not a prioritized list of the most critical sites.The database is just one of many sources consulted in deciding antiterrorism grants.

The inspector general recommends that the department review the list and determine which of the “extremely insignificant” assets that have been included should remain and provide better guidance to states on what to submit in the future.

Mr. Agen, the Homeland Security Department spokesman, said that he agreed that his agency should provide better directions for the states and that it would do so in the future.

One business owner who learned from a reporter that a company named Amish Country Popcorn was on the list was at first puzzled. The businessman, Brian Lehman, said he owned the only operation in the country with that name.

“I am out in the middle of nowhere,” said Mr. Lehman, whose business in Berne, Ind., has five employees and grows and distributes popcorn. “We are nothing but a bunch of Amish buggies and tractors out here. No one would care.”

But on second thought, he came up with an explanation: “Maybe because popcorn explodes?”

 

[BuddhaRoadkill]

... and here's the breakdown:

 

[sanjuro]

Terrorists, new target: Indiana. Secondary: Wisconsin.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Fck New York City

 

[sanjuro]

Terrorists: new target, now: Shreveport Metrosexuals

 

[narlus]

... and here's the breakdown:

this has to be from The Onion, right? i mean...right?

 

[BuddhaRoadkill]

this has to be from The Onion, right? i mean...right?

Meh ... Onion, New York Times ... it's all liberal Propaganda. If it ain't on NewsMax, it ain't true. :teacher: