[sanjuro]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/sports/cycling/26cycling.html?hp

Federal authorities investigating allegations that Lance Armstrong and other top cyclists engaged in doping are considering whether they can expand the investigation beyond traditional drug distribution charges to include ones involving fraud and conspiracy, according to two people briefed on the investigation.

The authorities, who are in the early stages of their investigation, are seeking to determine whether Armstrong, the owners and managers of his former cycling teams and his teammates conspired to defraud their sponsors by doping to improve their performances and garner more money and prizes, one of the people said.

In particular, the authorities want to know whether money from the United States Postal Service, the main sponsor of Armstrong’s team from 1996 to 2004, was used to buy performance-enhancing drugs, one of the people said. Fraud charges can carry longer sentences than charges of drug distribution.

At this time, I should point out the punishment scale of lying:

Lie to your friends and family: scorn and abandonment
Lie to WADA/UCI: an angry Dick Pound
Lie to your fans: no more sponsorship and free drinks

Lie to the Federal Government: Guaranteed prosecution attempt followed by perjury charges.

Think about what Barry Bonds, or better yet, his trainer Greg Anderson, has gone through to prove that he lied under oath.

I love it if Lance testified, or the rest of his cronies.

 

[gonefirefightin]

 

[CBJ]

Just what we need. Government money well spend

 

[4xBoy]

Sad waste of money indeed.

 

[sanjuro]

Just don't ever complain about doping or celebrate when someone is caught, particularly these guys.

How do you think doping is stopped, then and now? Ask nicely to quit?

 

[CBJ]

Just don't ever complain about doping or celebrate when someone is caught, particularly these guys.

How do you think doping is stopped, then and now? Ask nicely to quit?

I would much rather spend the money on preventing and testing than worrying about what happened in the past. Its not like there is an unlimited amount of money to spend on this.

 

[loco-gringo]

I'd prefer they use these dollars for things that are actually a threat to our country, but they'll do whatever. I hope they are wrong.

 

[Heidi]

I would much rather spend the money on preventing and testing than worrying about what happened in the past.

I agree

 

[KavuRider]

Lie to WADA/UCI: an angry Dick Pound

So, Federal Prison?

 

[sanjuro]

I would much rather spend the money on preventing and testing than worrying about what happened in the past. Its not like there is an unlimited amount of money to spend on this.

There are two ways to stop doping:

accurate tests
massive penalty

Losing your career is bad, going to jail is even worse.

Look at baseball. There has been very few positives, but after the "pre-testing" confidential tests were released, the visibility on the cheaters is now immense.

More importantly were the players who testified in front of Congress. One of them was caught and almost had perjury charges filed. McGwire, almost took the 5th, is the poster child for cheaters.

I think this has a huge effect on PED use in MLB.

 

[maddog17]

There are two ways to stop doping:

accurate tests
massive penalty

the only way to stop it cold. if they can get the testing to a point where there is no chance for it being wrong and it can detect everything then it's a huge win in that battle. as far as massive penalties... life time ban for first offense, PERIOD!!!! if WADA and the UCI are really that interested in stopping this, then life time ban on first offense is the only solution. you take away a riders chance like that and others may not be so willing to do it. BUT.... the testing process HAS to be perfect. and the process has to be too. you take away any doubt, any possible way of messing things up and that will go a long way in instituting a life time ban. Tyler Hamilton didn't learn his lesson the first time. that's the type of thing that needs to stop. you don't give them a second chance.

 

[ire]

There are two ways to stop doping:

accurate tests
massive penalty

Losing your career is bad, going to jail is even worse.

Look at baseball. There has been very few positives, but after the "pre-testing" confidential tests were released, the visibility on the cheaters is now immense.

More importantly were the players who testified in front of Congress. One of them was caught and almost had perjury charges filed. McGwire, almost took the 5th, is the poster child for cheaters.

I think this has a huge effect on PED use in MLB.

Your naive if you think baseball has rooted out their doping problem. Doing drugs happens in both the NFL and MLB and it's in the organizations interest to keep it quiet. Doping scandals equal lost dollars for either organization.

I think you're wrong about the punishment aspect as well. Harsh penalties have been shown to not detour crime and yet you think it will stop people from doping. Two years for a suspension is a long time, but people will still risk it because it can be the difference between making $65k or $650k. In life people will always cut corners to get ahead. It happens everywhere, especially when money is involved.

 

[loco-gringo]

You make them lifetime bans, you will get people's attention.

 

[ire]

You make them lifetime bans, you will get people's attention.

In order to execute that the labs would have to maintain a level of integrity and scientific standards, which hasn't happened. If nothing else, the Landis case showed the labs can't follow their own procedures and their tests wouldn't of held up to a review from anyone in the scientific community. Plus, look at the Kohl case; they were paying off members of the lab to conduct tests on his urine/blood so they would know how much he could dope without getting caught.

 

[loco-gringo]

I'm with you, ire. It's just that no one has had any true incentive to stop it. You start killing careers and making people go away and things should change. Lawsuits would likely tank the illegitimate labs. It will take a long time, but the guys that get caught (are dirty) will always train and compete at a higher level. They have altered their physiology in ways we really don't understand.


I'm curious as to what the lifelong implications on their bodies will be. These tactics are still new enough we may see all of these guys die in their 50s. The threat of that may end up being the healer of the sore. (pure speculation on my behalf)

 

[ire]

Yeah, I wonder what the impact will be on them. It can't be good to be injecting HGH, testosterone, and EPO constantly. One thing I haven't understood in the doping fight is why the U.S. hasn't prosecuted some of the people who've tested positive for sporting fraud. Personally, I think the doping cases should be handled in a court room than a USADA hearing.

 

[blue]

The threat of that may end up being the healer of the sore. (pure speculation on my behalf)

Doubtful.

 

[oldfart]

Often a discussion like this will bring out a comment like " Why not just let them dope in a special unlimited class?" The answer in my mind is that it will become ridiculous. Riders would do so many medically questionable things that they would be dying. No I think a line has to drawn somewhere and a hefty fine and/or ban is what will work. In F-1 which some would call the epitome of motor racing they have rules which keep the speeds down and cars (hopefully) on the track. I think the drivers actually want these rules to keep it fair and as safe as one can reasonably expect considering what they are doing. It seems in F-1 that car builders work to make the cars faster all the time and if speeds increase too much rules are made to slow them back down. Ground effects for example worked really well until a car lost suction then it was really dangerous. Got banned. Wings grew large, size was restricted.

Where doping gets blurry is the argument about doing certain drugs to recover and heal an athlete. I have no problem with an athlete that does prescribed steroids to heal a significant injury. That type of use, to return an athlete to normal health is OK. But the use of drugs to make that athlete better than he should be well that seems unethical.

Top pro athletes are a different animal that regular amateur punters like us. Their motivation is different in in some instances I think from mental defect. The need to crush oponents, where does that need come from? I don't think Hinault, Merckx or Armstrong in their hey days were particularly pleasant folks to hang with. To me a victory gained from cheating, be it from cutting a course, hanging on to a car, using dope or an illegal bike would be kind of empty. But I wanted to win or do well for my own self to prove to myself that I was good enough. Other guys need to prove to others their value. And hey I wanted others to think I was decent too. We all like to be accepted as an equal or at least respected. Some people need more than that.

 

[sanjuro]

Your naive if you think baseball has rooted out their doping problem. Doing drugs happens in both the NFL and MLB and it's in the organizations interest to keep it quiet. Doping scandals equal lost dollars for either organization.

I think you're wrong about the punishment aspect as well. Harsh penalties have been shown to not detour crime and yet you think it will stop people from doping. Two years for a suspension is a long time, but people will still risk it because it can be the difference between making $65k or $650k. In life people will always cut corners to get ahead. It happens everywhere, especially when money is involved.

I agree that PED usage has not stopped because there are no effective tests HGH and many other drugs.

However, just like Al Capone and his conviction, not for murder or smuggling but tax evasion, there are many ways to catch a criminal.

And specifically for the USPS, if they are called to testify, lying to the press versus committing perjury have two different punishment scales.

 

[loco-gringo]

I did not get arrested or find any drugs at Lance's today.

 

[ire]

I did not get arrested or find any drugs at Lance's today.

PM me with a list of what you scored and price

 

[BikeMike]

I think you're wrong about the punishment aspect as well. Harsh penalties have been shown to not detour crime and yet you think it will stop people from doping.

I both agree and disagree, if that's possible. You're right, in that there are lots of good studies that suggest things like the death penalty don't attenuate murder rates. On the other hand, look at Singapore...I'm not a fan of the system, but...drug dealing is punished by death, and there really isn't a drug problem there. The rewards just aren't worth the risk. Not that doping should be punished by death...but lifetime bans on sanctioned bike racing--amateur as well as professional--would make a lot of young guys think twice. Add to that a clause giving sponsors or race organizations the ability to sue riders caught doping to recoup wages earned, and you'd go a fair way to reduce doping, at least for a while.

(On the other hand, there are some interesting potential ways to do genetic doping that would be pretty much completely undetectable once done.)

 

[sanjuro]

The noose tightens...

Armstrong Denies Ownership Role in Former Team

“It wasn’t my company,” he said. “I can’t make it clear enough to you. I don’t know. I didn’t know the company. I didn’t have a position. I didn’t have an equity stake. I didn’t have a profit stake. I didn’t have a seat on the board. I was a rider on the team. I can’t be any clearer than that.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/sports/cycling/15armstrong.html

 

[ire]

Just for the record, I didn't have an ownership stake either.

 

[Heidi]

The back and forth with Landis and Verbruggen is very amusing.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/verbruggen-labels-landis-a-nuisance

Floyd Landis Yellow Jersey Wearer: Nuisance Category

 

[sanjuro]

Nothing really important, but Lance just hired a criminal defense attorney.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/07/21/sports/s205940D11.DTL&tsp=1

 

[Silver]

Nothing really important, but Lance just hired a criminal defense attorney.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/07/21/sports/s205940D11.DTL&tsp=1

He's in trouble.

Tyler and Floyd both know where the bodies are, and they are ruined men. That's a bad combo if you're trying to hide something.

If I was Lance (and Johan) I'd be looking at real estate in Brazil...

 

[ire]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/us-postal-investigation-gathers-pace

Meanwhile, Lance Armstrong’s defence attorney Bryan D. Daly has sought to dismiss the allegations of doping at the US Postal Service team as an attempt to persecute his client.

“They just want to incriminate Lance Armstrong and that’s my concern,” Daly said. “If Lance Armstrong came in second in those Tour de France races, there’s no way that Lance Armstrong would be involved in these cases. I think that the concern is that they are caught up in the pursuit of a celebrity to catch him in a lie.”

I guess he doesn't remember all the crap Ullrich went through after the '06 mess.

 

[sanjuro]

I'm just curious who testified whose names are not Tyler or Floyd.

 

[ire]

I'm just curious who testified whose names are not Tyler or Floyd.

Heras, Livingston, his ex-wife, etc...

 

[Westy]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/us-postal-investigation-gathers-pace



I guess he doesn't remember all the crap Ullrich went through after the '06 mess.

Not to mention does anyone really care if someone cheats and loses?

 

[4xBoy]

He's in trouble.

Tyler and Floyd both know where the bodies are, and they are ruined men. That's a bad combo if you're trying to hide something.

If I was Lance (and Johan) I'd be looking at real estate in Brazil...

Hiring an attorney when you are about to be questioned is a good idea, talking with out one didn't do Martha Stewart any favors.

 

[ire]

Hiring an attorney when you are about to be questioned is a good idea, talking with out one didn't do Martha Stewart any favors.

Neither did lying. I suspect this will turn out like the investigation against Ullrich...Armstrong will pay a large sum of money to make it go away.

 

[blue]

 

[north20]

..."Plus Frankie has a weird lisp." ...


This is true - gospel level stuff.

The rest is probably the apologist crap it appears to be.