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finally fort bill

Mo(n)arch

Turbo Monkey
Dec 27, 2010
4,441
1,422
Italy/south Tyrol
Gee talking about his injury. Not really a fan of the Athertons, but damn.
This guy definitely deserves the "Tough as Nails" award. I can't imagine having an injury like this, but trying to come back the same season is just crazy.

 

weedkilla

Monkey
Jul 6, 2008
362
10
Whining about the woods really gets to me.
So they fucked up. They tried to make a techy wood section and they over stepped the mark. They didn't actually over do it too much - maybe if 20-30 people could have got through there clean instead of maybe 5?
It's a hell of a lot better than imba-ing the fuck out of everything, world cups are one place where that stuff doesn't matter.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
Not really a fan of the Athertons, but damn.
This guy definitely deserves the "Tough as Nails" award. I can't imagine having an injury like this, but trying to come back the same season is just crazy.
TBF Gee has known nothing other than racing since he was about 14 and had exactly the same attitude back then. going for fastest time of the day at all the local races.
 
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sethimus

neu bizutch
Feb 5, 2006
4,881
2,132
not in Whistler anymore :/
Wow, shows you what I know about how the points are awarded. I would've bet kidwoo's paycheck that Neko would've been ahead of Minnaar since Neko has two 7th place finishes and GM has a 1st and a 59th. Likewise, he's only 5 points ahead of Gwin who was DQ'd at Lourdes. I guess maybe the quali points count more than I thought.
greg got 50pts for qualifying first...
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
I only watched the replay now and I don't get the comments that it's hard therefore it's good. The problem wasn't that it was too hard more like that it meant luck played a too big role there. Of course in DH luck is always a factor but usually skill is a bigger factor.

I know many of us have ridden in conditions like this and I have nothing about riding in them (well unless I have no place to dry off, then it's a PITA but I will still ride) but we also all know when you have super sticky clay so you don't even see your thread and you are riding in a hub deep rut it's not good for racing. Not to mention conditions must have been different for different riders. Are we really suggesting that Danny Hart should learn to ride in Mud? or Sam Hill? Because both of them crashed.

They could have as well made that into a mandatory unicycle section or as @kidwoo suggested a idiotic 5kph wooden skinny section that's only rideable on a broken Ellsworth.

The solution here and I'm sure I've heard someone suggesting it was to make the section STEEPER and faster becaue then the bog pit would not slow you down right before where you needed speed. We complained about Canberra World Champs where Peaty still won thanks to skill and we are fine with this? FFS.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
https://dirtmountainbike.com/videos/carnage-woods.html

watch Remi [61] make it through like an absolute boss every time
meanwhile his team mate Brannigan [75] rides the exact same line and makes it through almost as if the two trained/practiced/shared/compared notes.

Just a coincidence?

lucky bastards?

or do yo think they scoped the terrain properly and figured out a line that worked for them?
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
Ya'll just pissed 'cuz the tiny wheels being rocked by some of your heroes couldn't get through the ruts without hanging up on their axles.
don't be fuckin silly our BBs stop our wheel axles ever getting down that deep ;)
 

fwp

Monkey
Jun 5, 2013
410
400
Gee talking about his injury. Not really a fan of the Athertons, but damn.
This guy definitely deserves the "Tough as Nails" award. I can't imagine having an injury like this, but trying to come back the same season is just crazy.

I was never a big Gee fan. But after watching him race with a broken thumb (Val di sole i think) It changed my perspective on him, I'll root for anyone with that kind of passion for DH racing. Racing injured for the love of the game, you gotta respect the guy, especially for being at the top of the racing world for almost two decades.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Really? I don't think it was too hard, I just think a walking pace section of boghole shouldn't decide a WC. But whatever, its racing - every course is different. From the interviews I've seen, all the riders hated it and reckoned it needed to have been bedded in before racing. But they're probably all just whinging because they can't ride DH like us.
Like I said, some people handled it really well - and while there is some variability/chance involved, that's part of the fun with dirt racing over road racing - dynamically varying conditions and testing the racer's ability to adapt. Go back and watch the 07 Champery race day footage in the wet, I think you might have forgotten how horrible and unenjoyable some WCs can be (for some riders), that's just what racing is!

I didn't see the section immediately before the footage (which was apparently worse, in fairness), but the filmed woods section was the more enjoyable section to watch of the entire race - that top section is pretty boring (it's better close-up like in 3Focus from memory), and the bottom was pretty bland too apart from watching Marcelo harnessing the e-bike function built into his Glory.

As for the "can't ride DH like us" thing, someone else nailed it - these people picked it as a career, we didn't, so all we have to do is be entertained.

Edit - just read @norbar 's post though, I'm all for making it steeper as a "solution". :D
 
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toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,479
4,719
Australia
Edit - just read @norbar 's post though, I'm all for making it steeper as a "solution". :D
I agree. it was just a flattish, shitty boghole is all. I want to see people struggling at speed, not at walking pace and Freddy Flintstoning their way through a quagmire. That section made them look like I was coaching them.
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
I was never a big Gee fan. But after watching him race with a broken thumb (Val di sole i think) It changed my perspective on him, I'll root for anyone with that kind of passion for DH racing. Racing injured for the love of the game, you gotta respect the guy, especially for being at the top of the racing world for almost two decades.
Thumb? How bout Marla Streb racing with a broken ankle, foot duct taped onto the pedal.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
https://dirtmountainbike.com/videos/carnage-woods.html

watch Remi [61] make it through like an absolute boss every time
meanwhile his team mate Brannigan [75] rides the exact same line and makes it through almost as if the two trained/practiced/shared/compared notes.

Just a coincidence?

lucky bastards?

or do yo think they scoped the terrain properly and figured out a line that worked for them?
You didn't read my post carefully Gary. You must maintain those oldtimey glasses of yours better as you missed the part where I claimed it's a mix of skill and luck. So yeah a select few knew how to ride through (and a few I've seen semed to barely avoid crashing) it but it's not good racing where a slow, unentertaining, xc bog pit is rideable by 3-5 guys from the whole field and even some of the best mud riders crash there. Minnaar should win, I'm not questioning that. I'm more surprised about the few guys who seemed to almost crash, didn't seem to have a better line than the people who did and ended up in top 20 vs 50th+ because of a coin toss part.

If it has to be a bit random for people without a plan (so like 75/80 people that day) make it steep so people who want to risk it can ride it down fast. I remember one national championship round in conditions like that and I didn't mind but that was because it was DH, some stupid XC section. This part of the track really made FT Bill look like a crash complitation from XC
 
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Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
Nah... didn't miss what you said at all... simply highlighting the luck part... there's always an element of luck in riding DH at 100% which also happens to be one of the things that makes DH so exciting in the first place.
My whole point is... it's NOT as random as a coin toss.. is it? Practice is for working shit out BEFORE your race run... some riders are better at this than others... Take Hill for example. In his DH heyday on the most technical tracks he'd often have lines he'd kept to himself throughout practice and could hit in his race run. That's very very clever use of practice. At Fort William There was nothing stopping any rider sectioning/walking that section during practice to find their best/safest/fastest way through. I can't feel sorry for anyone who didn't. infact for the guys who are payed to ride/race. Quite the opposite.

If it has to be a bit random for people without a plan (so like 75/80 people that day) make it steep so people who want to risk it can ride it down fast. I remember one national championship round in conditions like that and I didn't mind but that was because it was DH, some stupid XC section. This part of the track really made FT Bill look like a crash complitation from XC
"people without a plan"? sorry.. As above. No fucks given there from me! a good DH race run is massively about planning and preparation.
"make it steep"? Sorry but you really need to go to Ft william before you make these assumptions. Other than the "off-beat wall" 10sec before the finish line. There isn't a genuinely steep section any longer than a few bike lengths on that entire hill.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
Nah... didn't miss what you said at all... simply highlighting the luck part... there's always an element of luck in riding DH at 100% which also happens to be one of the things that makes DH so exciting in the first place.
My whole point is... it's NOT as random as a coin toss.. is it? Practice is for working shit out BEFORE your race run... some riders are better at this than others... Take Hill for example. In his DH heyday on the most technical tracks he'd often have lines he'd kept to himself throughout practice and could hit in his race run. That's very very clever use of practice. At Fort William There was nothing stopping any rider sectioning/walking that section during practice to find their best/safest/fastest way through. I can't feel sorry for anyone who didn't. infact for the guys who are payed to ride/race. Quite the opposite.


"people without a plan"? sorry.. As above. No fucks given there from me! a good DH race run is massively about planning and preparation.
"make it steep"? Sorry but you really need to go to Ft william before you make these assumptions. Other than the "off-beat wall" 10sec before the finish line. There isn't a genuinely steep section any longer than a few bike lengths on that entire hill.
Don't you think all of them have walked and thought about that fragment? I am also not claiming it's a coin toss but it's a bigger random number generator than most tracks.

As for my make it steep - Warner himself commented that in the previous years it was steeper. I have nothing about super muddy sections or flattish sections but super flat + super muddy is basically cyclocross. We are not talking about whether something requires skill but whether it's a good dh section. To me it isn't. Anything that would have meant riders carried more speed through that section without making it easier would be good for me.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
Don't you think all of them have walked and thought about that fragment?
Not well enough. no.

Warner himself commented that in the previous years it was steeper. I have nothing about super muddy sections or flattish sections but super flat + super muddy is basically cyclocross.
I don't care what Warner said. The section of hill the woods occupy is what it is.
Ask a local. Not a guy who comes once a year to commentate on it.
And most certainly don't decide from your TV how flat something is

Watch the vid I linked to above.. how much does Remi pedal? Does he shoulder his bike?
No?
it's nothing like fucking cyclocross then is it?
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
Not well enough. no.


I don't care what Warner said. The section of hill the woods occupy is what it is.
Ask a local. Not a guy who comes once a year to commentate on it.
And most certainly don't decide from your TV how flat something is

Watch the vid I linked to above.. how much does Remi pedal? Does he shoulder his bike?
No?
it's nothing like fucking cyclocross then is it?
So wait that section of the track was as flat as it was in 2016,2015 and so on?
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,908
634
Lets all agree that a section that only 5 people manage to successfully ride because its really hard can be pretty cool, but a section that is a bottom bracket deep mudrut with a flat swamp before it to suck up all your speed kinda sucks.

Hard sections are cool when they're steep and the difference between skill shows significantly in the times.

Hard sections are not cool when they're flat, slow, and its a cointoss as to whether or not you'll get through without fucking your run up.

But if you tell me Danny Hart and Sam Hill don't know how to ride muddy sections, I wont even be able to even.

Not to mention, its nice when everybody generally gets to race on the same track, I know whether plays a big roll in that, but if you have a section that is extremely sensitive to whether when the rest of the track isn't, it can exacerbate weather related issues.

Racing is better when you don't have to say to yourself "I wonder if Troy could have won if he had raced 20 minutes later."
 
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Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
@Gary I'm still curious. Is that part different from previous years or was it BS coming from Warner?
slightly different, it is every world cup. as it's one of the only sections it is possible to tape differently. I already mentioned that they entered the woods section earlier this year.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
Also this kinda kills the argument made by @Gary that people didn't concentrate enough on the hardest part of the track (like Hill would do that)
I didn't mention concentration. I mentioned practising it until you have it nailed.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
slightly different, it is every world cup. as it's one of the only sections it is possible to tape differently. I already mentioned that they entered the woods section earlier this year.
And from the video above the first part was the biggest problem. Also isn't this a bit cocky of you to assume riders like Sam Hill and Dany Hart didn't practice enough in the mud part? Maybe you can give them some tips.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Ah come on, the same element of chance and variability applies to Sam and Danny too, Sam had a major crash in his Champery run - are we going to go back and say they should have mopped the water off the course? Are we going to give him a re-run so he can come 1st like he rightfully should have instead of 3rd? At the end of the day he did the best he could given varying conditions and garnered worldwide respect regardless of his placing anyway.

Courses have had bits like what Rachel crashed on for years, if people want to watch a variety of racing that has repeatable results and fair racing for everyone there are various forms of road racing that are still exciting - moto gp, touring cars, F1, etc. If safety is a key factor I could recommend table tennis.

Laurie Greenland has the right idea near the start of that video. Big grin, quit yer bitchin. take it as it comes or walk it if it's not something you can ride.

I'm gonna stand with @Gary on this one.
I'm sure there's an EWS thread for anyone who doesn't. :)
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
Ah come on, the same element of chance and variability applies to Sam and Danny too, Sam had a major crash in his Champery run - are we going to go back and say they should have mopped the water off the course? Are we going to give him a re-run so he can come 1st like he rightfully should have instead of 3rd? At the end of the day he did the best he could given varying conditions and garnered worldwide respect regardless of his placing anyway.

Courses have had bits like what Rachel crashed on for years, if people want to watch a variety of racing that has repeatable results and fair racing for everyone there are various forms of road racing that are still exciting - moto gp, touring cars, F1, etc. If safety is a key factor I could recommend table tennis.

Laurie Greenland has the right idea near the start of that video. Big grin, quit yer bitchin. take it as it comes or walk it if it's not something you can ride.

I'm gonna stand with @Gary on this one.
I'm sure there's an EWS thread for anyone who doesn't. :)
I don't want repeatable results. I want tracks that are downhill tracks, not flat bogs. The place where Rachel crashed was ok. I've ridden tracks like that in conditions like that. They are scary but they should be on dh tracks. What I'm against is the few super flat sections with axle deep ruts or bog pits. I don't think downhill racing results should be decided by sections you ride through at 5kph where the best one at foot dabbing wins the race. It's an XC section. Don't know about you but I don't want the next series of World Cup highlights to play to Benny Hill music and this section as well might.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
The fort bill woods section is the kind of stuff I like to see in WC DH. To me that's borderline unridable and challenging as hell.

Looking at leogang at a comparison, I can ride it. Only at 1/4 of the speed of a WC racer but It's doable. For my skill level I don't think I should be even able to get down a WC track without eating shit multiple times. Hopefully that new part Wyn mentioned will spice it up a bit.
If it gets wet there are a few scary sections in Leo. Also Champery in it's 2nd world cup iteration is readable. You might crash a few times the first time but it's rideable so I don't think there are world cup tracks that are completely idiotic and no one can ride them. Schlad is an amazing track and outside of 2 woods sections it's not hard to ride slow.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
@norbar
I don't disagree it could be steeper, but really, no good WC track is perfect in every possible potential condition that it may end up in - I'm just saying that has always been the case and is part of the challenge. I will say it again - some riders handled that section impressively well, and as Gary has already said, picking a line and holding speed through flatter muddy sections IS actually a skill and something you can improve at, even given the variability and difficulty of the task.

I'm just saying that people should first and foremost bitch about tracks becoming too easy / lame / highway-like before a tech section that some people got bogged in, I can guarantee that will make DH much lamer much faster than a tiny section of bog relative to the total track length.

Also Champery in it's 2nd world cup iteration is readable. You might crash a few times the first time but it's rideable so I don't think there are world cup tracks that are completely idiotic and no one can ride them. Schlad is an amazing track and outside of 2 woods sections it's not hard to ride slow.
I'm with @9M119 on this one - I've ridden the Champery track in both guises (i.e. Hill era 2007-2009, and Danny era 2010+, very different) and honestly the latter version, while fun, is more of a big steep jump track. The original was insane, challenging, and knife-bladed the men from the boys. Every run down I felt like I'd escaped death, and I'd be scared to race it. To me that's what World Cup / World Championship level tracks should be.