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Finding a Place for 9/11 in American History

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
By JOSEPH J. ELLIS
Published: January 28, 2006
The New York Times
Amherst, Mass.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/28/opinion/28ellis.html?emc=eta1

IN recent weeks, President Bush and his administration have mounted a spirited defense of his Iraq policy, the Patriot Act and, especially, a program to wiretap civilians, often reaching back into American history for precedents to justify these actions. It is clear that the president believes that he is acting to protect the security of the American people. It is equally clear that both his belief and the executive authority he claims to justify its use derive from the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

A myriad of contested questions are obviously at issue here — foreign policy questions about the danger posed by Iraq, constitutional questions about the proper limits on executive authority, even political questions about the president's motives in attacking Iraq. But all of those debates are playing out under the shadow of Sept. 11 and the tremendous changes that it prompted in both foreign and domestic policy.

Whether or not we can regard Sept. 11 as history, I would like to raise two historical questions about the terrorist attacks of that horrific day. My goal is not to offer definitive answers but rather to invite a serious debate about whether Sept. 11 deserves the historical significance it has achieved.

My first question: where does Sept. 11 rank in the grand sweep of American history as a threat to national security? By my calculations it does not make the top tier of the list, which requires the threat to pose a serious challenge to the survival of the American republic.

Here is my version of the top tier: the War for Independence, where defeat meant no United States of America; the War of 1812, when the national capital was burned to the ground; the Civil War, which threatened the survival of the Union; World War II, which represented a totalitarian threat to democracy and capitalism; the cold war, most specifically the Cuban missile crisis of 1962, which made nuclear annihilation a distinct possibility.

Sept. 11 does not rise to that level of threat because, while it places lives and lifestyles at risk, it does not threaten the survival of the American republic, even though the terrorists would like us to believe so.

My second question is this: What does history tell us about our earlier responses to traumatic events?

My list of precedents for the Patriot Act and government wiretapping of American citizens would include the Alien and Sedition Acts in 1798, which allowed the federal government to close newspapers and deport foreigners during the "quasi-war" with France; the denial of habeas corpus during the Civil War, which permitted the pre-emptive arrest of suspected Southern sympathizers; the Red Scare of 1919, which emboldened the attorney general to round up leftist critics in the wake of the Russian Revolution; the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II, which was justified on the grounds that their ancestry made them potential threats to national security; the McCarthy scare of the early 1950's, which used cold war anxieties to pursue a witch hunt against putative Communists in government, universities and the film industry.

In retrospect, none of these domestic responses to perceived national security threats looks justifiable. Every history textbook I know describes them as lamentable, excessive, even embarrassing. Some very distinguished American presidents, including John Adams, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt, succumbed to quite genuine and widespread popular fears. No historian or biographer has argued that these were their finest hours.

What Patrick Henry once called "the lamp of experience" needs to be brought into the shadowy space in which we have all been living since Sept. 11. My tentative conclusion is that the light it sheds exposes the ghosts and goblins of our traumatized imaginations. It is completely understandable that those who lost loved ones on that date will carry emotional scars for the remainder of their lives. But it defies reason and experience to make Sept. 11 the defining influence on our foreign and domestic policy. History suggests that we have faced greater challenges and triumphed, and that overreaction is a greater danger than complacency.

Joseph J. Ellis is a professor of history at Mount Holyoke College and the author, most recently, of "His Excellency: George Washington."
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
I have wondered just how long it will take until 9/11 is no longer used on an almost daily basis as jusification for action. Over 4 years later it still appears to be a bleeding wound on America's soul, picked at daily by those who can use it to further their agenda.

Although it was nothing like the same scale, the bombs on the London Underground in July 2005 are not in the forefront of peoples' minds here in the UK anymore, nor have been for sometime. Whilst I realise that far more people died in the WTC attack, the length of time for it to be assimilated into US history seems disproportionate.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
We still talk about Pearl Harbor every other thursday, I think 911 will last awhile.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
BurlyShirley said:
We still talk about Pearl Harbor every other thursday
But we no longer use it as justification for throwing innocent 3rd generation Americans of Japanese descent into concentration camps.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
ohio said:
But we no longer use it as justification for throwing innocent 3rd generation Americans of Japanese descent into concentration camps.
That's only because the atheist Jewish ACLU PC conspiracy won't let us with their activist liberal judges.

Your post proves it, what with your "Americans of Japanese descent" A real patriotic American would have thrown in an ethnic slur there, y'know?

And "concentration camps"? I went to camp as a kid, and I survived.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
43,528
15,753
Portland, OR
What I find odd is the fact that to this day the cause of war for Iraq is changing.

First it was the threat of WMD's
Then it was the support of terrorists
Now it is to overthrow a dictoator and spread freedom

Since the first two didn't pan out so well, and the third one isn't going any better, what will be the "real" reason in the end?
 

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
11,819
15
Slacking at work
jimmydean said:
What I find odd is the fact that to this day the cause of war for Iraq is changing.

First it was the threat of WMD's
Then it was the support of terrorists
Now it is to overthrow a dictoator and spread freedom

Since the first two didn't pan out so well, and the third one isn't going any better, what will be the "real" reason in the end?
Anyone with a brain knows the real reason: oil.

Too bad there is a severe shortage of Americans with brains.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
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Silver said:
Your post proves it, what with your "Americans of Japanese descent" A real patriotic American would have thrown in an ethnic slur there, y'know?

And "concentration camps"? I went to camp as a kid, and I survived.
So did my great-aunt and uncle. Do you want to discuss Japanese Internment further?
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
syadasti said:
By JOSEPH J. ELLIS
Here is my version of the top tier: the War for Independence, where defeat meant no United States of America; the War of 1812, when the national capital was burned to the ground; the Civil War, which threatened the survival of the Union; World War II, which represented a totalitarian threat to democracy and capitalism; the cold war, most specifically the Cuban missile crisis of 1962, which made nuclear annihilation a distinct possibility.

Sept. 11 does not rise to that level of threat because, while it places lives and lifestyles at risk, it does not threaten the survival of the American republic, even though the terrorists would like us to believe so.
This is a funny list. He ranks 9/11 after War of Independence, War of 1812, The Civil War, WW2, and The Cold War. Assuming he ranks 9/11 after these events, he places it before our involvement in WWI, Vietnam, and Korea. Basically 6th on the threat to national security. I will go for that.

Unintentionally or not, he tries to make 9/11 seem trival compared to 4 major wars and a 50 year detente.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
sanjuro said:
This is a funny list. He ranks 9/11 after War of Independence, War of 1812, The Civil War, WW2, and The Cold War. Assuming he ranks 9/11 after these events, he places it before our involvement in WWI, Vietnam, and Korea. Basically 6th on the threat to national security. I will go for that.
The way I read it, he's simply saying that the five things listed are "top tier" events, while 9/11 simply is not. He doesn't say 9/11 ranks sixth or that it gets ranked ahead of WWI, Vietnam, and Korea.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
sanjuro said:
So did my great-aunt and uncle. Do you want to discuss Japanese Internment further?
I just wish we had the will to put Arabs into camps now, but we can't because the Left will start whining about "civil liberties" and all that crap.

You'd be willing to sign a loyalty oath, right? After all, if my forefathers saw fit to put your forefathers into a camp, that puts you pretty high up on my list of people to watch...on second thought, don't worry about it. We'll just wiretap you.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
43,528
15,753
Portland, OR
Echo said:
Anyone with a brain knows the real reason: oil.

Too bad there is a severe shortage of Americans with brains.
I meant the published cause, not the "real" cause. Everyone knows the current administration would never publicly state that oil is the true reason.

It makes me think of Dave Chappelle as "the black Bush". "Oil? Who said anything about oil?"
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
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SF
Silver said:
I just wish we had the will to put Arabs into camps now, but we can't because the Left will start whining about "civil liberties" and all that crap.

You'd be willing to sign a loyalty oath, right? After all, if my forefathers saw fit to put your forefathers into a camp, that puts you pretty high up on my list of people to watch...on second thought, don't worry about it. We'll just wiretap you.
Just print your real name when you put comments like that up. That's all I have to say.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
sanjuro said:
Just print your real name when you put comments like that up. That's all I have to say.
LMAO!
You need to hang around more so you can figure out who is being sarcastic. Silver is the biggest freaking hippie in this place. He wishes his ancestors had it bad so he could hate the government more with an actual reason.
 

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
11,819
15
Slacking at work
sanjuro said:
Just print your real name when you put comments like that up. That's all I have to say.
You must not be able to see the needle on the sarcasm/satire gauge because it's off the scale.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
fluff said:
I have a feeling, just a feeling mind, that he's being satirical.

I could be wrong.
You're not. My forefathers were hiding in attics in the Netherlands while Sanjuro's were in internment camps.

You can hear the summer camp comment coming out of Limbaugh's mouth, right? And while I'm being sarcastic, it's not really any different than Michelle Malkin's position on the subject...
 

The Amish

Dumber than N8
Feb 22, 2005
645
0
Echo said:
Anyone with a brain knows the real reason: oil.
Thats good enough for me! My car needs gas, they want to live in the stone age. We bomb'd the piss out of em, now everyone gets what they want. That was simple!
 

The Amish

Dumber than N8
Feb 22, 2005
645
0
Changleen said:
The true place for 9/11 in American history will hopefully be when people realise what a bunch of BS it was.

Long and detailed article, read before commenting please:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=GRI20060129&articleId=1846
I WAS WATCHIN IT GO DOWN ON TV WITH PEOPLE DIVIN OF THE BUILDING LONG BEFORE THE STOPED SHOWIN IT LIVE. DIDNT LOOK LIKE BS TO ME. GO FVCK YOURSEF!

Theres alot of **** science and logic dont explain in this world
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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The Amish said:
I WAS WATCHIN IT GO DOWN ON TV WITH PEOPLE DIVIN OF THE BUILDING LONG BEFORE THE STOPED SHOWIN IT LIVE. DIDNT LOOK LIKE BS TO ME. GO FVCK YOURSEF!
So was I. You're special. If you believe and understand the government's version of events maybe you can point out some issues with the article?

Theres alot of **** science and logic dont explain in this world
Hopefully science and logic are nor suspended at the whim of terrorists? Maybe Allah did it?
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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From said article:

6. Conclusion

It is, in any case, already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by domestic terrorists. Foreign terrorists could not have gotten access to the buildings to plant the explosives. They probably would not have had the courtesy to make sure that the buildings collapsed straight down, rather than falling over onto surrounding buildings. And they could not have orchestrated a cover-up, from the quick disposal of the steel to the FEMA Report to The 9/11 Commission Report to the NIST Report. All of these things could have been orchestrated only by forces within our own government.

The evidence for this conclusion has thus far been largely ignored by the mainstream press, perhaps under the guise of obeying President Bush’s advice not to tolerate “outrageous conspiracy theories.” We have seen, however, that it is the Bush administration’s conspiracy theory that is the outrageous one, because it is violently contradicted by numerous facts, including some basic laws of physics.

There is, of course, another reason why the mainstream press has not pointed out these contradictions. As a recent letter to the Los Angeles Times said:

The number of contradictions in the official version of . . . 9/11 is so overwhelming that . . . it simply cannot be believed. Yet . . . the official version cannot be abandoned because the implication of rejecting it is far too disturbing: that we are subject to a government conspiracy of ‘X-Files’ proportions and insidiousness.[79]

The implications are indeed disturbing. Many people who know or at least suspect the truth about 9/11 probably believe that revealing it would be so disturbing to the American psyche, the American form of government, and global stability that it is better to pretend to believe the official version. I would suggest, however, that any merit this argument may have had earlier has been overcome by more recent events and realizations. Far more devastating to the American psyche, the American form of government, and the world as a whole will be the continued rule of those who brought us 9/11, because the values reflected in that horrendous event have been reflected in the Bush administration’s lies to justify the attack on Iraq, its disregard for environmental science and the Bill of Rights, its criminal negligence both before and after Katrina, and now its apparent plan not only to weaponize space but also to authorize the use of nuclear weapons in a preemptive strike.

In light of this situation and the facts discussed in this essay---as well as dozens of more problems in the official account of 9/11 discussed in my books---I call on the New York Times to take the lead in finally exposing to the American people and the world the truth about 9/11. Taking the lead on such a story will, of course, involve enormous risks. But if there is any news organization with the power, the prestige, and the credibility to break this story, it is the Times. It performed yeoman service in getting the 9/11 oral histories released. But now the welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9/11 exposed. I am calling on the Times to rise to the occasion.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Bloody hell, we should know better than to mention 9/11 here. Chang goes all cross-eyed and starts waving his arms around like a chimp on meth.;)
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
9/11 happens. Some people die. Nobody in a position of power reveals/figures out the real reason it happened, or why it was simply a small part of a larger power struggle. 9/11 realistically changes nothing about international policy. Historically insignificant. The end. Drop it, fearmongering retards.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
Changleen said:
From said article:
Sigh. I know I'm opening up a can of .... worms, but I really need to respond to this. Chang, please go watch the video again. The collapse of the buildings begins at the floors which were struck by the planes. For your theory to hold up, the pilots of the planes would have had to fly the planes within, say, +/- 5 feet of the correct elevation (which were very different heights in the two buildings), and explosive experts would have had to plant a massive amount of explosives in crowded offices that were being used through the weekend without anyone noticing. In addition, the explosives (and the their ignition circuits) would have to withstand about an hour of burning jet fuel before triggering in a coordinated manner. Whether or not you believe the fires burned hot enough to anneal steel, you can't believe that there are magic electrical circuits that can survive that fire.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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Actually if you watch really closely the ariel on the roof collapses first. Even FEMA say that:
in the words of the FEMA Report, “the transmission tower on top of the [north tower] began to move downward and laterally slightly before movement was evident at the exterior wall.
Secondly there are 100 ways around the initiation point thing. The easiest that springs to mind is simply run cabling in the interior of the central core or using remotly detonated systems per floor.

Also:

WTC Security: The suggestion that explosives might have been used raises the question of how anyone wanting to place explosives in the towers could have gotten through the security checks. This question brings us to a possibly relevant fact about a company---now called Stratesec but then called Securacom---that was in charge of security for the World Trade Center. From 1993 to 2000, during which Securacom installed a new security system, Marvin Bush, the president’s brother, was one of the company’s directors. And from 1999 until January of 2002, their cousin Wirt Walker III was the CEO (Burns, 2003).[57] One would think these facts should have made the evening news---or at least The 9/11 Commission Report.

On the weekend of [September 8-9, 2001], there was a “power down” condition in . . . the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approximately 36 hours from floor 50 up. . . . The reason given by the WTC for the power down was that cabling in the tower was being upgraded . . . . Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors [while] many, many “engineers” [were] coming in and out of the tower.
 

sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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Silver said:
You're not. My forefathers were hiding in attics in the Netherlands while Sanjuro's were in internment camps.
There were Japanese Internment camps in the Netherlands?
 

sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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Changleen said:
C'mon Ohio, bring it! :D
I hate to start this old battle again, but you do admit that planes hit the World Trade Center? And do you admit that it was Arab terrorists who hijacked the planes, no matter who their true master were?
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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Yes, Planes hit WTC 1+2. Clearly. And yes, they were probably the type of planes that were advertised. It was almost definitely Arabs who were in the cockpits at the time, if anyone was in the planes at all.
 

kinghami3

Future Turbo Monkey
Jun 1, 2004
2,239
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Ballard 4 life.
Changleen said:
The true place for 9/11 in American history will hopefully be when people realise what a bunch of BS it was.

Long and detailed article, read before commenting please:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=GRI20060129&articleId=1846
9/11 was a tragedy; it was our reaction that was BS. Despite 9/11 being a tragedy for the 3000+ who lost their lives, there are much worse things happening in this world that we need to devote our attention to. And no, I didn't bother reading the article. I'm an American, I don't read, I assert.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
Changleen said:
Secondly there are 100 ways around the initiation point thing. The easiest that springs to mind is simply run cabling in the interior of the central core or using remotly detonated systems per floor.
Uh, there are TWO parts to a remote device: a transmitter and a RECIEVER. Once again, show me ANY ignition circuit that can survive an hour of burning jet fuel.

Or the core... the solid steel and concrete core. Either the explosives were implanted when the concrete was first poured a few decades ago, or those engineers drilled through several feet of concrete and steel, on several (if not every) floors (apparently without power), planted the explosives, and then sealed up that hole well enough to insulate the ignition circuit from melting or the explosives from early combustion. Again, while thousands of gallons of jet fuel burned nearby.

Oh, right, and they did it in both buildings.

AND of the hundreds of personnel it would have taken to pull this off, not one of them has leaked a thing. I mean we're talking a James Bond Moonraker scale of operations here. You're telling me not one evil henchman turned sides after seeing the effects of his work?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
sanjuro said:
There were Japanese Internment camps in the Netherlands?
No. I'm Canadian, and most of my family over the age of 50 was born in Holland.

You do understand the stuff upthread was tongue in cheek, right? And you do understand that there are a bunch of people in this country who would nod their head at all the tongue in cheek stuff I said?
 

Changleen

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Jan 9, 2004
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ohio said:
Uh, there are TWO parts to a remote device: a transmitter and a RECIEVER. Once again, show me ANY ignition circuit that can survive an hour of burning jet fuel.

Or the core... the solid steel and concrete core. Either the explosives were implanted when the concrete was first poured a few decades ago, or those engineers drilled through several feet of concrete and steel, on several (if not every) floors (apparently without power), planted the explosives, and then sealed up that hole well enough to insulate the ignition circuit from melting or the explosives from early combustion. Again, while thousands of gallons of jet fuel burned nearby.

Oh, right, and they did it in both buildings.

AND of the hundreds of personnel it would have taken to pull this off, not one of them has leaked a thing. I mean we're talking a James Bond Moonraker scale of operations here. You're telling me not one evil henchman turned sides after seeing the effects of his work?
Read the freakin' article!
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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ohio said:
Chang, are you just trolling here or what?
No, I really believe that some shady **** went down. There are so many issues with the official explanation, and they can't all be passed off as incompetance.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
ohio said:
AND of the hundreds of personnel it would have taken to pull this off, not one of them has leaked a thing. I mean we're talking a James Bond Moonraker scale of operations here. You're telling me not one evil henchman turned sides after seeing the effects of his work?
Yep, I can certainly believe that there could have been a conspiracy but for an operation of this scale to go ahead without someone spilling the beans is inconceivable.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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ohio said:
Uh, there are TWO parts to a remote device: a transmitter and a RECIEVER. Once again, show me ANY ignition circuit that can survive an hour of burning jet fuel.
Local ones didn't need to. The fire wasn't that big.

Or the core... the solid steel and concrete core. Either the explosives were implanted when the concrete was first poured a few decades ago, or those engineers drilled through several feet of concrete and steel, on several (if not every) floors (apparently without power), planted the explosives, and then sealed up that hole well enough to insulate the ignition circuit from melting or the explosives from early combustion. Again, while thousands of gallons of jet fuel burned nearby.
Again, read the article.


AND of the hundreds of personnel it would have taken to pull this off, not one of them has leaked a thing. I mean we're talking a James Bond Moonraker scale of operations here. You're telling me not one evil henchman turned sides after seeing the effects of his work?
So demolition crews normally employ 100's? No. A few highly trained engineers demolish buildings.