[jonKranked]

pegboy, william:

yea, the shop should have gotten things at least ball parked. but that doesn't eliminate the onus of the rider to make sure everything is set properly and to do the fine tuning

 

[William42]

pegboy, william:

yea, the shop should have gotten things at least ball parked. but that doesn't eliminate the onus of the rider to make sure everything is set properly and to do the fine tuning

I agree the rider is the one that will need to do the fine tuning at the end of the day. But from the sounds of it, there was absolutely no baseline tuning that was 100% the shops responsibility. Was it silly of the OP not to notice? Definitely. I can't even relate to him to be honest; there is no way I could hop on a bicycle and have the suspension be so out of whack that I would run the risk of getting tossed off something that I should have been able to ride over under normal circumstances, and not notice that the suspension was off. Hell, I can generally tell if its at least ballpark just by bouncing up and down on it a few times. It seems strange that he wouldn't notice that after so many years with moto's. I also typically don't go 100% and risk falling first ride out on a bicycle, unless I feel really, really, really comfortable with it, which clearly he didn't.

So no, I can't relate to the OP, because he made some pretty clear rider errors, but as far as the bike setup goes, I would say ~0-5% of the bike being setup so poorly was his fault, and the rest the shops/giants.

Luckily, he's mechanically inclined, he didn't hurt himself too badly, the bicycle comes with top notch components, and giants engineering and construction is great too, so it should be pretty easy to recover and fall in love with the bike like he should.

 

[kidwoo]

pegboy, william:

yea, the shop should have gotten things at least ball parked. but that doesn't eliminate the onus of the rider to make sure everything is set properly and to do the fine tuning

Fine tuning sure.

A derailleur cable that comes off or rebound damping backed completely off or a spring that's nowhere near what the rider should be on........no friggin way.

Pegboy's example covers this but we're coming from a perspective where you and I probably can't even remember the last time a bike was 'built' for our consumption. A zealous mom buying her (spoiled fvcking brat, seriously you don't deserve this) son his first mountain bike. That's dangerous.

You'll notice I subtly called the op a spoiled brat on his first bike too...... thereby solidifying my position on both sides of this.

 

[gemini2k]

Wow this thread is hilarious. My favorite part is the "I've worked on and ridden moto's for over a decade but somehow fast fork rebound sends me otb in my first 10 seconds on the bike."

 

[jonKranked]

Fine tuning sure.

A derailleur cable that comes off or rebound damping backed completely off or a spring that's nowhere near what the rider should be on........no friggin way.

Pegboy's example covers this but we're coming from a perspective where you and I probably can't even remember the last time a bike was 'built' for our consumption. A zealous mom buying her (spoiled fvcking brat, seriously you don't deserve this) son his first mountain bike. That's dangerous.

solution: pelvic thrusts

 

[kidwoo]

Cure all to any problem really.

 

[William42]

"Mr President, we think we found Osama, what do we do?"



as per usual "you must spread reputation around before giving it to kidwoo again"

 

[Kanye West]

While I think part of the problem (a large part of the problem) lies with you being a dildo and not checking your equipment before you go partake in activity that relies on such equipment, you do have a point...

The assembly quality out of the box of high-end DH mountain bikes, or any bike for that matter, is absolutely pitiful compared to that of a showroom floor MX bike. Someone said it right - 14 year olds who don't even know how to wank yet are setting up structural components of your bike. Due diligence. The fact they even charge money for some kid to put my equipment together in a "safe" manner is nauseating. It's a good thing my last few bikes have been pieced together by me and not bought from a store or stupid shop errors like that would probably cause me to have an aneurysm. To say I'm "picky" about my rides is an understatement..

Short version - check your sh!t! If you know your way around a moto, a DH bike should take you all of 10 minutes to go through. Few bearings, couple seals, some knobs, and a tension adjuster.

 

[Tetreault]

I also assumed the simplicity of a bicycle could be easily mastered with the right mentor. Heck if you spend an hour searching RM and PB you can learn just about anything you want to know about bicycles.

supreme misunderstanding and appreciation of what it takes to be a bicycle mechanic and to know exactly what is going on with each component of a bike and how to fix it. Its like saying, looking at this desk, how hard is it to be a carpenter and create something like this out of something so simple as wood? bikes are the same, it is an art form to understand something that is so simplistic yet so finicky and easily distorted. In the end its really simple, Giant bikes comes semi-assembled, the builder should have checked over the bike and had it set and ready for you, this includes the der cable and tension. Also, they should have roughly adjusted the shock for you. Torque specs need to be constantly maintained, this and final shock tuning, are on you.

As for the shock leaking, bring it back to the shop, get them to look at it, get it warrantied. Live and learn, thanks for coming to an educated forum so that we can help you with such issues

 

[kidwoo]

Oh come on, who here actually uses a torque wrench on their bikes? I use mine on my snowmobile and my truck when touching the engine but that's to prevent explosions in my face at several thousand rpms.

But a bike?

Fess up.












Yes I'm about to make fun of you.
And potentially clip a corner off your man card.

 

[William42]

Oh come on, who here actually uses a torque wrench on their bikes? I use mine on my snowmobile and my truck when touching the engine but that's to prevent explosions in my face at several thousand rpms.

But a bike?

Fess up.












Yes I'm about to make fun of you.
And potentially clip a corner off your man card.

I'm about to be made fun of, but I use a torque wrench on pivots. and stem bolts/seatpost bolts if handlebars or seatpost is carbon.

and a three way with a 2' extender to really get everything good and cinched down afterwards.

 

[Kanye West]

FYI the tolerance for final bolt tension while using torque wrenches is typically about +/- 25%.

The only ways to determine proper clamping force of a threaded fastener within a reasonable tolerance is 1) integrated load cell or 2) the ability to measure the stretching or yield of the fastener from both ends. The second yields a tolerance below +/- 2%.

Many auto mechanics don't use torque wrenches for these reasons. There are other options though, especially for larger fasteners. Impact driver extenders are offered that have torsional flex designed into them with a narrow taper through the middle of the extender that "limits" the applied torque. I have no clue how accurate those are though.

That said, I still use a torque wrench for some things, like head bolts. Even if it's not accurate, at least it's consistent and encourages flatness and uniform tension. Also the occasional MIN or MAX torque spec they'll at least let me know if I'm in the ballpark.

 

[MCCOYBOY]

Apparently you don't know that the fork does not have a floating piston or a reservior and is not pressurized.


For what it's worth I've had Rockshox front and rear suspension adjusters that have seeped oil when brand new and were not leaky, and others that were. The presence of oil alone isn't indicative. Sometimes on my Vivid the small rebound adjuster on the side of the reservoir seeped a bit of oil if I screwed it way in or way out but it never leaked in 2 years. I had one that leaked from the factory.

Please read the post. I was talking about the shock not the forks.

 

[MCCOYBOY]

...and then you get a brand new out of the box DH bike and just ride it down the nearest hill without so much as checking the settings or whether things have been set up properly? No pre-ride check? With all due respect, you are full of sh*t.

Your bike was set up to hell but that's just how things work around here. It's not GIANT's fault, it's your shop's fault for poor assembly and your fault for not checking it out.

I went over the bike briefly but have never had issues in the past and figured this bike would treat me as well as the others especially since it was my first new bike. I guess the original owners of my other bikes did all the setup themselves. Also the first rule to suspension tuning is riding the motorcycle with the stock suspension and figuring out what needs improved. I think you guys are not reading my post correctly. I DIDN'T EXPECT THE SUSPENSION TO BE SETUP PERFECTLY.

 

[MCCOYBOY]

As far as the fsa angleset. It's not a bad set, like the cane creek they can be prone to popping.

The FSA set isn't installed at this point it's the 0 degree head set that was popping. I honestly believe it will be fine.

Come on man, who buys a $6k bike and doesnt even take an initial ballpark estimate of rebound and compression??? Who cares what its initially set to?

No idea about the head cups but Ive heard the exact same problem typical of this kind of headset. Not Giants fault.

Derailleur cable adjustment is not Giants fault, its the bike shops fault or whoever is in charge of final tuning.

Rockshox products have proven (to me) to be very unreliable. that isnt giant's fault, its rockshox's fault. Both my R2C2 and Boxxer that came on my GT were defective straight out of the box.

anyway, maybe Ill see you at wisp this year

I now realize that I should have taken the bike apart and put it back together myself. I have bought about a dozen new dirt bikes since 2000 and they have all been safe and reliable right off the showroom floor. Live and learn I guess.

Hmmmmm......"20 Things To Check On Your New KTM"

(#15 is know your clicker settings. Go figure.)

http://www.dirtrider.com/tech/141_1104_things_to_check_on_your_new_ktm/viewall.html

I'm not moto guy, but I'd be skeptical of anything mass produced and remotely high-performance coming from the factory 'ready to ride.' And I equally doubt a shop will have gone over it with more than a cursory get-you-on-the-road(trail)-quickly effort.

I can assure you they are ready to ride. WHILE they are usually not perfect out of the box they are always safe to ride.

 

[MCCOYBOY]

You should always check your bike, especially a new one, before you ride it. Any bike with the suspension set up wrong will handle and ride poorly. As far as the fsa angleset. It's not a bad set, like the cane creek they can be prone to popping. I've had good and bad luck with em and would prefer not too run one, but the glory has a steeper head angle for my liking and until a newer one with revised slacker geometry comes out the angleset is the glory's only solution for slacker geo.

Come on man, who buys a $6k bike and doesnt even take an initial ballpark estimate of rebound and compression??? Who cares what its initially set to?

No idea about the head cups but Ive heard the exact same problem typical of this kind of headset. Not Giants fault.

Derailleur cable adjustment is not Giants fault, its the bike shops fault or whoever is in charge of final tuning.

Rockshox products have proven (to me) to be very unreliable. that isnt giant's fault, its rockshox's fault. Both my R2C2 and Boxxer that came on my GT were defective straight out of the box.

anyway, maybe Ill see you at wisp this year

The fact that people put the blame on the buyer, in these cases, is exactly why the industry is this way. Sure, it makes sense to go over the bike before riding it and, for the more experienced riders, to set up the suspension but it should not be expected unless it is stated as such buy the dealer, and even then they should be offering to help or instruct you how to do so for a high end product (6k). Rebuild a fork out of the box?! Torque and locktite all the bolts on a brand-new bike?! What type of business ethics are we supporting here?

If that is the way a LBS is going to do business then they deserve to be driven out of business by online shops every time.
-Rant over-

Thanks for the support. That was my biggest issue was that the guys at the shop told me it was ready to ride! They were giving me a hard time for wanting to order the correct springs before riding it. There exact words were "man just ride it and see how you like it before you go buying things for it that you may not need". Guess I will buy my next bike in pieces and build it myself.

 

[MCCOYBOY]

pegboy, william:

yea, the shop should have gotten things at least ball parked. but that doesn't eliminate the onus of the rider to make sure everything is set properly and to do the fine tuning

I expected to have to do some fine tuning but damn man all the clickers were set to full soft. Who the hell calls that a starting point? I will check all my settings on any bike I buy in the future and have no trust in my LBS.

one last thing: it seems to me like the "i've worked moto for a long time, i wrecked because I didn't bother to check my suspension" have got a lot of people blaming him. That may have been stupid, and the fall may have been rider error, but the suspension should have at least been ballparked prior to leaving the shop, and the der should not have had any problems. .

That's all I was wanting/expecting.

I agree the rider is the one that will need to do the fine tuning at the end of the day. But from the sounds of it, there was absolutely no baseline tuning that was 100% the shops responsibility. Was it silly of the OP not to notice? Definitely. I can't even relate to him to be honest; there is no way I could hop on a bicycle and have the suspension be so out of whack that I would run the risk of getting tossed off something that I should have been able to ride over under normal circumstances, and not notice that the suspension was off. Hell, I can generally tell if its at least ballpark just by bouncing up and down on it a few times. It seems strange that he wouldn't notice that after so many years with moto's. I also typically don't go 100% and risk falling first ride out on a bicycle, unless I feel really, really, really comfortable with it, which clearly he didn't.
Luckily, he's mechanically inclined, he didn't hurt himself too badly, the bicycle comes with top notch components, and giants engineering and construction is great too, so it should be pretty easy to recover and fall in love with the bike like he should.

The bike felt fine when bouncing on it in the parking lot. It wasn't until the bike got into the last 50mm of travel that the spring had enough energy to start putting me over the bars. Hell on the small rough stuff the fast rebound made the bike feel planted. I guess my fault was in trusting someone to do something they said they did. I have never bought a new bicycle and my only experience with buying new is with motorcycles and every one I've ever bought was setup to work off the showroom floor and only required me to fine tune it.

I love the bike and didn't start this thread to bash giant or my LBS, I just wanted to see if my first experience buying a new bicycle was typical. I got my answer.

 

[MCCOYBOY]

Fine tuning sure.

A derailleur cable that comes off or rebound damping backed completely off or a spring that's nowhere near what the rider should be on........no friggin way.

Pegboy's example covers this but we're coming from a perspective where you and I probably can't even remember the last time a bike was 'built' for our consumption. A zealous mom buying her (spoiled fvcking brat, seriously you don't deserve this) son his first mountain bike. That's dangerous.

You'll notice I subtly called the op a spoiled brat on his first bike too...... thereby solidifying my position on both sides of this.

Lol.... Nice.

Wow this thread is hilarious. My favorite part is the "I've worked on and ridden moto's for over a decade but somehow fast fork rebound sends me otb in my first 10 seconds on the bike."

Glad you are enjoying the thread. It was the shock that sent me over the bars FYI.

 

[lachy_mtb]

I honestly cannot believe the level of hate from posters here. I see the point that things should be check by the rider before, but this isn't always the case. The vast majority of people do not know anything about how to put a bike together, service it etc. so that is why a shop is there for them.

I personally work in a shop and if a bike like this was going out the door (or any bike for that matter) I would at least check to see if the customer needs a hand with the suspension at all, that's what a shop is there for right, to provide a service to their products. If this wasn't the case then there is no point in shops being around, people could do their own work. I luckily get to work with Treks which have an easy guide to set up suspension, but all shocks have a recommendation for settings and this would be set up on the bike, as part of the service that the customer is paying for.

As for the rear mech cable popping out, this is something that should of been checked over once again by the shop. Accidents do happen and maybe it just wasn't quite tight enough and shifted fine in the stand, which is understandable, its not the riders fault though that this happened on the ride (the crash is not the shops fault either though). Whether the bike is 'pre-assembled' or not, everything should be checked over, it is once again the service of the shop.

MCCOYBOY I don't think is in the wrong at all for making these comments, yes he should of been riding within his limits with a new bike and checked over the suspension settings accordingly and the crashes themselves are not the fault of the shop in that regard, but it's the shops agenda to make sure that a bike leaves in running order and that the customer is informed of there product they have purchased.

On a side note, I as a shop mechanic personally dislike when people compare industries, i.e. moto suspension to bike suspension as they are different beasts and work totally differently, but you guys don't have to be dicks about it. Of course his previous knowledge about suspension is going to have him wondering about how it works/set up etc. The moto industry itself which is as someone else stated bigger, but there is a lot that the bike industry can learn from mainly responsibility in assembly and service.

All you you need stop attacking the guy, who really only posted on here for opinions to see what these bikes usually come from shops like. Stop being a bunch of e-haters give the guy a break and stop blaming him that this is entirely his fault

 

[iRider]

For arguments sake, lets change the scenario slightly: Let's suppose that this bike was bought by a parent for their 14 yro kid who is enthusiastic about getting into DH but has little experience ......

Don't you think the shop would treat a kid different? But if you walk in, tell them that you work for 12 years in the moto industry and tune suspension for a living then they might think you know your way around something as simple as a bike. And that you are used to RTFM before you go out and ride that thing. Don't ya think?

 

[General Lee]

Please read the post. I was talking about the shock not the forks.

"The final issue came towards the end of the day. I was adjusting the ending rebound stroke adjuster on the Rock Shok R2C2 and was amazed to see shock oil seeping from the adjuster."


Probably should have said 'shock' or 'fork' then. Because R2C2 refers to your fork (2 compression and 2 rebound adjustments), Your rear shock is R2C (one compression adjustment). But I don;t know anyone who calls them something other than a Vivid and Boxxer.

A little fluid seeping from behind the LSR adjuster is something I've seen on several brand new Vivids, none of which were leaking. Probably just lubricant of some kind or shock oil that ended up in there during assembly. Clean it off with some rubbing alcohol and keep an eye on it. While it may end up being a leak I'd hesitate to jump to that conclusion.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Bottom line that OP got right, and I follow myself. Build/Wrench on all your own stuff, trust no one.

My bikes havent been touched by any tools but mine by my hands for >30 years. I will double check and test any work done by any type of professional because, well, a lot of 'professionals' suck at what they do.

So whether its this one or that ones fault or responsibility, do your diligence (whether it means inspection/review or complete re-assembly) and own yours!


Its sort of like crossing through an intersection having a green light without looking both ways and you get creamed. Yeah it's not your fault, but you could have avoided it with a little more attention to detail.


Regardless, its still amusing that someone claiming great experience with moto's and suspension managed to ride more than 100' without something feeling wrong.

 

[Inclag]

Please read the post. I was talking about the shock not the forks.

Sounds like your shop sucks and welcome to the world of DH. While it seems practical to compare DH to Moto, the fact is that most bike shops are in the business of selling recreational bikes and as such are not specialist in the field of high performance bicycles (this includes high end road bikes as well). As such there is a bit of a nod of the head silent understanding that if you want to have things done right you must either take it upon yourself or seek out a specialty bike shop. It's just the nature of the beast. Chalk up your experience as a learning lesson and pass along your issues to the shop as there should be some accountability and hopefully they can use your experience as a learning lesson as well.

With respect to the rear shock, the ending stroke rebound adjuster has 2 dynamic radially sealed o-rings to seal the adjuster assembly. It would be extremely unlikely that both of these are damaged in order for oil to egress out of the system. I still stand by my assessment that this is a case of lubricant as a result of assembly. The ending stroke adjuster actually has 2 degrees of freedom and not only turns radially, but also moves up and down axially. This means that the outer o-ring in the system is free to move up and down with the adjuster due to the gland design. See attached image of this o-ring.

This adjuster sits in a tight bore with a diametrical clearance gap. When the adjuster moves axially you are actually displacing a small amount of volume within this gap, and if there is any lubricant/air between the adjuster and reservoir it will likely do exactly what you described. Now, if this adjustment knob continually 'spits' and bubbles out charged oil, then you have an issue and you sure as heck will know because you'll have a clunky cavitated shock with a dead spot with no damping in no time.

 

[jonKranked]

at least we're finally at a point where all stocks have finally stopped coming stock with 650lb springs.

 

[MCCOYBOY]

Don't you think the shop would treat a kid different? But if you walk in, tell them that you work for 12 years in the moto industry and tune suspension for a living then they might think you know your way around something as simple as a bike. And that you are used to RTFM before you go out and ride that thing. Don't ya think?

I never told them anything about myself besides this was my first new bike. I'm not upset with the shop or Giant I was just posting to see if this was a common occurrence. I will continue to do business with them because they are very nice and I probably won't even mention the issues because what good would it do? I learned my lesson and I will put a wrench on every bolt/nut in the future when buying a new bicycle. No harm no foul and lesson learned.

"The final issue came towards the end of the day. I was adjusting the ending rebound stroke adjuster on the Rock Shok R2C2 and was amazed to see shock oil seeping from the adjuster."


Probably should have said 'shock' or 'fork' then. Because R2C2 refers to your fork (2 compression and 2 rebound adjustments), Your rear shock is R2C (one compression adjustment). But I don;t know anyone who calls them something other than a Vivid and Boxxer.

Sorry I'm not up with the bicycle lingo yet. I assumed when I started talking about the reservoir and floating piston with air charge it would be obvious not to mention the "shock oil" comment but looking back I can see why there was some confusion. Either way my fault.

 

[MCCOYBOY]

Regardless, its still amusing that someone claiming great experience with moto's and suspension managed to ride more than 100' without something feeling wrong.

The first 100 yards was nothing more than a drop in on a single line trail across a field. My issue came on the first big root and rock that put the suspension deeper into the travel than I was able to duplicate in the parking lot. Either way it's my fault and I learned from it. Thanks

 

[MCCOYBOY]

Sounds like your shop sucks and welcome to the world of DH. While it seems practical to compare DH to Moto, the fact is that most bike shops are in the business of selling recreational bikes and as such are not specialist in the field of high performance bicycles (this includes high end road bikes as well). As such there is a bit of a nod of the head silent understanding that if you want to have things done right you must either take it upon yourself or seek out a specialty bike shop. It's just the nature of the beast. Chalk up your experience as a learning lesson and pass along your issues to the shop as there should be some accountability and hopefully they can use your experience as a learning lesson as well.

With respect to the rear shock, the ending stroke rebound adjuster has 2 dynamic radially sealed o-rings to seal the adjuster assembly. It would be extremely unlikely that both of these are damaged in order for oil to egress out of the system. I still stand by my assessment that this is a case of lubricant as a result of assembly. The ending stroke adjuster actually has 2 degrees of freedom and not only turns radially, but also moves up and down axially. This means that the outer o-ring in the system is free to move up and down with the adjuster due to the gland design. See attached image of this o-ring.

This adjuster sits in a tight bore with a diametrical clearance gap. When the adjuster moves axially you are actually displacing a small amount of volume within this gap, and if there is any lubricant/air between the adjuster and reservoir it will likely do exactly what you described. Now, if this adjustment knob continually 'spits' and bubbles out charged oil, then you have an issue and you sure as heck will know because you'll have a clunky cavitated shock with a dead spot with no damping in no time.

Thanks for the picture. There is a nice puddle under the bike and the shock is covered so I guess something is going on with the o-ring. I'll take it to the shop today to see if they can warranty me the parts at least.

 

[Inclag]

Thanks for the picture. There is a nice puddle under the bike and the shock is covered so I guess something is going on with the o-ring. I'll take it to the shop today to see if they can warranty me the parts at least.

Apologies, I'm mistaken as there is only one o-ring on this adjuster. Going back on memory I've confused one of the spring loaded shims as an o-ring.

Definitely bring the shock back to the shop. As a heads up, I do believe you need to be careful with this adjuster as trying to screw it beyond it's limit will damage the shock. There is a small retaining ring that acts as the limit for this adjuster. If you try backing out the adjuster all the way, the o-ring will bottom against the small retaining ring. This is supposed to behave as the limit/stop, but obviously pushing and rotating an o-ring up to a thin retaining ring with the mechanical advantage of threads is a good way to damage it. Not really the most elegant design, so be careful in the future.