Did that slow you down?
Fixing Shimano Wandering Bite Point
- Thread starter Lelandjt
- Start date
I installed E4s on the DH rig by accident and have survived so far (including a rowdy day at Killington), although might buy a V4 caliper for the front.
On a different topic, anyone tried to use Hope X2s pistons and seals in Shimano calipers? I saw some reports on ze empty Bier that this odd fix works fine, despite suspected problems with seals swelling etc.
On a different topic, anyone tried to use Hope X2s pistons and seals in Shimano calipers? I saw some reports on ze empty Bier that this odd fix works fine, despite suspected problems with seals swelling etc.
Well, I'm able to reply to your question. So apparently they can make a fat guy like me stop. Or go slow.
Or go fast?
As fast as I'm comfortable with knowing that I can slow down or stop when I want/need.
They gave me enough confidence to roll stuff without concern if my brakes would work or not.
Does that answer your question?
Ps. I'm now 238lbs.
Last edited:
We don't need to describe brake force in words, there's a stickied thread in this forum where we've measured and calculated (to a reasonable degree of accuracy) the force generated, as peak-leverage values, by the three brakes in question:
Shimano Saint M820: 39.84
Trickstuff Direttissima: 39.52
Hope Tech3 V4: 35.59
That means that both the DRT and 820 have ~10% greater peak force than the V4.
For comparison, the peak force advantage going from a 203mm rotor to a 225mm rotor is ~9.7%.
The benefit of the V4 is it's more reliable and more consistent than the M820, I'd choose the V4 over the M820 for this reason. However, peak force is also very important for a brake, and what one pays for in the DRT is a brake which has the peak stopping force of the M820 with greater reliability AND significantly shorter throw than both V4/M820 in a package which is significantly lighter than both. There are a few people I know who refuse to run Hope (Steve M is one, for reference) purely because they don't generate enough peak force. I put the V4 in my shortlist because it's a good reliable brake, however it certainly isn't perfect, and it most certainly is not a half-price DRT, nor does it stop as well as the M820.
For @Kurt_80 the answer is roughly "yes", keep in mind you add significant mass (and some inertia) to an already heavier brake system by switching to 220 rotors + larger adaptors, and with 220 you still won't match the DRT or M820 (only +7.7%). With a 225 you'll get pretty close to the same though (+9.7%).
Note (re: calculations):
The only minor inaccuracy is we haven't mapped the exact leverage curve and it does vary due to the angle of "short" (cam-side) lever arm in relation to the MC pushrod, but as neither the V4 nor the DRT use variable cams AND have similar actuation geometry, the percentage error should be small. For the M820 we did calculate the effects of servo wave (as they are significant). Overall however, these three brakes (along with the MT7) should be some of our more accurate calculations on the sheet.
Shimano Saint M820: 39.84
Trickstuff Direttissima: 39.52
Hope Tech3 V4: 35.59
That means that both the DRT and 820 have ~10% greater peak force than the V4.
For comparison, the peak force advantage going from a 203mm rotor to a 225mm rotor is ~9.7%.
The benefit of the V4 is it's more reliable and more consistent than the M820, I'd choose the V4 over the M820 for this reason. However, peak force is also very important for a brake, and what one pays for in the DRT is a brake which has the peak stopping force of the M820 with greater reliability AND significantly shorter throw than both V4/M820 in a package which is significantly lighter than both. There are a few people I know who refuse to run Hope (Steve M is one, for reference) purely because they don't generate enough peak force. I put the V4 in my shortlist because it's a good reliable brake, however it certainly isn't perfect, and it most certainly is not a half-price DRT, nor does it stop as well as the M820.
For @Kurt_80 the answer is roughly "yes", keep in mind you add significant mass (and some inertia) to an already heavier brake system by switching to 220 rotors + larger adaptors, and with 220 you still won't match the DRT or M820 (only +7.7%). With a 225 you'll get pretty close to the same though (+9.7%).
Note (re: calculations):
The only minor inaccuracy is we haven't mapped the exact leverage curve and it does vary due to the angle of "short" (cam-side) lever arm in relation to the MC pushrod, but as neither the V4 nor the DRT use variable cams AND have similar actuation geometry, the percentage error should be small. For the M820 we did calculate the effects of servo wave (as they are significant). Overall however, these three brakes (along with the MT7) should be some of our more accurate calculations on the sheet.
That was the biggest problem I had on Mono M4s. Before, I had DH4s and no one knew better and they hadn't even invented 203mm rotors yet, but on the M4s, I thought I was crazy going to all sorts of lengths to try and get more power out of them. I tried every pad I could, rotors, cleaning, etc., but they never generated the force I was expecting from the brakes. All sorts of other stuff did way better in this time period. I eventually gave up on em, but I couldn't figure out why the power was so poor back then.
I've been using Saints for a few years and while I've experienced some of that wandering bite point, I've never had the lever go to the bar making me feel unsafe (it's always the rear, not the front!). I always figured it was air that got into the system and needed a bleed...again. I haven't given a lot of time to the Zee brakes on the DH bike but the few days I used them this year, they felt better than the Saints.
It's dumb Shimano brakes are disposable, but at least they're affordable disposable. One day I'll have to try the Trickstuff brakes.
It's dumb Shimano brakes are disposable, but at least they're affordable disposable. One day I'll have to try the Trickstuff brakes.
The Zees feel great until that one moment when they don't.
That one moment made me replace them instantly.
That one moment made me replace them instantly.
What did you replace with?
Thanks for the detailed reply, as always @Udi. Another question if possible?
Do you (or any other readers) have any direct experience with these 225mm Hope floating rotors? They're not bad weight wise (r2 bike advertises at 217g; 203mm Magura HC Storms are 182g), offer more power, and I assume some heat dissipation properties. My concern is around reports of the pins/rivets loosening such that there is play between the steel braking surface and the alloy carrier.
For context, I'm thinking about getting a set of these for future trips to Whistler. I'd probably grab some finned pads as well.
Current setup on my DH bike is Formula T1s on 203mm rotors. In Australia they're fine, but they were sometimes underpowered and overheating in Whistler earlier this year.
I posted this question to in the Heavy Duty rotors thread as well, but since we all hate e-bikes, I figured I'd get more traffic here.
Cheers all!
Last edited:
I have one sitting on my desk, 219g.
Pretty good for a 225mm.
The rivets are much larger than other similar rotors (eg. Shimano centerlock, which did develop play), and I've seen these rotors @ 203mm on friends bikes for a couple seasons and they haven't developed play (from memory at least) so I'd say they're safe + if you did have an issue it'd be a defect/warranty issue. Potentially they might also warp and/or bend a little easier in a crash but I'd take the gamble for working brakes halfway through a lift season.
If you want one to try just PM me the cheapest price you find online and I'll knock 10% off or whatever incl postage and send it out, I bought it when I thought I'd have to get V4s myself. It's definitely how I'd run V4s on my DH bike. I have no actual experience but apparently I trusted it enough to buy it.
I had some chinese knock-off rotors that looked like Hope. They developed play and it was super annoying, makes you think bushings are knocking, fork is creaking, headset is loose, etc.
None of my Shimano have developed play and I've had a good many of them. I think their manufacturing/engineering is significantly different and they aren't as "free" to radially expand, not pinned like Hope and others. I don't think they are trying to achieve the same end-effect.
I also had genuine Hope pinned rotors like pictured back in the day. Again, never any issue with them loosening. I think with the proper design/engineering/QC, the brake track will wear out before the pins develop slop. And if they do, it's hopefully a few years down the road when you should have replaced them anyway.
My new TRP Slates feel good at the lever...longer free stroke than Shimano, which I expected lacking the servo wave design. Solid and modern motorcycle-y per Westy's description. Will report how they work for my general non-extreme use.
Got a couple of those that went rattly way before ANY wear to the braking surface occurred at all. I probably still have them lying round somewhere. Anyway, they were so bad a locked up brake still allowed the rim/tyre to rotate 10mm at the fork crown/stays
Tried to warrantry them and HOPE said the rattle and play was "normal" and sent me a link to a tech document/disclaimer that basically said 1mm rotational play at the rivets was normal
Fuck that shit!
Useful to know, but I wonder if they've been updated?
That was my experience with the Shimano centerlocks too, but that was many years ago and I haven't heard any complaints about it happening on newer ones. Possibly because on ice-tech the braking track wears out first, not sure.
The set of Hope 203mm ones under my buddy had a tonne of ride time in the park and I don't recall any slop, but they're the current generation that come with the Tech3 V4s. It's possible they've quietly improved the interface without saying anything (like they increased the axle thickness from the Pro2 -> Evo hubs since the OG ones were snapping). I have no idea though.
The problem is that 225 rotors are stupidly heavy without an alloy carrier, so there aren't many options.
The best 2-piece design on this front is easily Formula, they use a carrier which interfaces with the rotor so that the loading is partly at the tightly toleranced interface rather than completely at the rivet, thus they don't develop play and can run smaller/lighter rivets: BUT they don't currently make a 225mm in this design.
That was my experience with the Shimano centerlocks too, but that was many years ago and I haven't heard any complaints about it happening on newer ones. Possibly because on ice-tech the braking track wears out first, not sure.
The set of Hope 203mm ones under my buddy had a tonne of ride time in the park and I don't recall any slop, but they're the current generation that come with the Tech3 V4s. It's possible they've quietly improved the interface without saying anything (like they increased the axle thickness from the Pro2 -> Evo hubs since the OG ones were snapping). I have no idea though.
The problem is that 225 rotors are stupidly heavy without an alloy carrier, so there aren't many options.
The best 2-piece design on this front is easily Formula, they use a carrier which interfaces with the rotor so that the loading is partly at the tightly toleranced interface rather than completely at the rivet, thus they don't develop play and can run smaller/lighter rivets: BUT they don't currently make a 225mm in this design.
Going into the new year on a 3rd set of pads on these bad boys. 1 solid year of riding on them and zero complaints re: squish ones or variable lever throw/feel. Pads wear out more quickly than the Shimano metallic, but that’s just fine by me.
will hurt my PRs.
So... two pads vs four pads.
I'd think two larger pads per caliper would offer more bite over moar pads with surface contact.
What's going on in there? It's there any space between those pads?
When I was running MT5s I tried every pad there was, because they wore out crazy fast and gave me a lot of opportunities to try new ones, the "big" pads from the MT5s that span both pistons don't last any longer. I tried a few other brands, they didn't work out all that well, mostly noisy, lacking power or both. Best bet is to just order OEM pads from Germany in whatever compound you like, get a metric shitpile of them and don't worry about the fact that you have to change them constantly.
On the up side I had virtually zero wear on my rotors after 4-5 years and approximately a ton of miles.
Haven't yet fitted the MT7's I bought for wife for festivus, but I just decided to get a matching set for me. They likely won't get ridden until resorts open in June. But one of the cheap german stores, bike-components has free shipping and 10% coupon until tomorrow, which I used for some Maxxis. So I decided to take advantage.
Which is your favoured, Race or Performance pads?
I think the gold backing pads are the race and the black are the performance, right? I ran the black ones most of the time, if I remember right they're about half the price, and since the brakes were on a trail bike I didn't really need any more power.
Don't quote me on this, but I think the black/cheaper ones are organic, and the gold are sintered metallic. If you ride somewhere that actually gets weather that may make a difference, around here the only time my bike sees water is when I wash it.
From their website I guessed the gold race to be sintered and the black performance organic. They come with black and I ordered a bunch of mixed spares when I bought wife's brakes so we'll see how they feel. Not often it's wet at CO resorts, but hoping to hit a few BC resorts this coming summer, so moisture is far more likely.
Can confirm what Udi said, I've been running them all year with great success, by far not as much bending as Shimano's.
I finally managed to get a proper ride on my Direttissimas.
To me the whole issue is closed.
I never had a brake that felt that close to perfect. It has power, huge amounts of power, all the time. But you can control that power really easily, all the time. Pull the trigger and it brakes, pull it a slight bit more and it brakes really well. Just a bit more and it's "Hello nose wheelie" time. The lever feel is just pure consistency all the time. I did a 500m really steep descent today for a reference. No fading or whatsoever.
Modulation is just perfect. The lever feel is dead linear. You squeeze it and it provides power in such a predictive way it just asks to brake as late as possible.
Anybody who can justify the expense for himself go grab a set, you won't regret a cent.
To me the whole issue is closed.
I never had a brake that felt that close to perfect. It has power, huge amounts of power, all the time. But you can control that power really easily, all the time. Pull the trigger and it brakes, pull it a slight bit more and it brakes really well. Just a bit more and it's "Hello nose wheelie" time. The lever feel is just pure consistency all the time. I did a 500m really steep descent today for a reference. No fading or whatsoever.
Modulation is just perfect. The lever feel is dead linear. You squeeze it and it provides power in such a predictive way it just asks to brake as late as possible.
Anybody who can justify the expense for himself go grab a set, you won't regret a cent.
Congrats, happy to hear you are happy. I would start with their brake pads if one could buy them here, I am not too keen on paying 20e shipping for 20e parts.
Tell me what you need and I'll send you a set of pads. Postage is not that expensive.
Whatever man, enjoy your overpriced Hopes / glorified Shimanos with upgraded pistons.
I can buy a brake that does everything you said at a quarter of the price, congratulations on getting ripped off.
You did not only swap avatars with Kidwoo but also attitude?
You saw the "
" that I put behind my comment? It is there for a reason.
Yeah, I was trying to be too meta. I couldn't work out how to double quote.