Floating brake on single pivot (Bullit)?
- Thread starter lonewolfe
- Start date
actually i came acroos this thread in mtbr forum, it's bullit with brake therapy
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=191765#post191765
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=191765#post191765
do a search under "floating brake" in this forum, you will find LOT'S of information.
I had a joker that the suspension locked out on tremendously when using the rear brake. Now I ride an asx, and I cannot notice any lockout at all. Not all single pivot bikes are alike in this matter.
I had a joker that the suspension locked out on tremendously when using the rear brake. Now I ride an asx, and I cannot notice any lockout at all. Not all single pivot bikes are alike in this matter.
although a completly different pivot placement for my ride, the floater is really amazing, it just keeps the rear end smooth.
I had a homemade floating brake on my Super 8 for years. It worked great.
never ridden a boo-let. but i've ridden 2 differend foes monos, mine with a floater and my friends without it. the difference is amazing, my bike will track well while breaking in rough sections. it tracks so well, sometimes i forget i am braking untill i try to pedal and the cranks go nowhere. while on the other hand, on his bike the rear end is skipping and hopping all over the place.....
definately worth it in this scenario. i assume the bullit will perform similar. both have high forward pivots......
definately worth it in this scenario. i assume the bullit will perform similar. both have high forward pivots......
I used to own a Bullit with a floater. Made a HUGE difference. The first time I rode it was at Whistler, and it allowed me to go SO much faster on the steeps. The bike stays level and you always have suspension. Every time we sell a Bullit, we always push the customer to by a Hadley rear hub, not only because they're the best you can buy, but because they're really easy to set up for the floating brake system. After the intial purchase, they'll want to add something to the bike, make it more capable. The floater takes the Bullit to its maximum level of performance.
I put one on my Bullit and took it straight to the roughest trails I know (exit 38). Since I was familiar with the trails I could tell the difference right away. It works pretty damn good. Just remember, $300 for the Hadley hub & $300 for the kit. I just happened to purchase the Hadley hubs before the kit was available. I like to haul ass more than anything so it was worth it to me. I just can't afford a full on race bike. 
Hey, thanks for all the great feedback!
Fortunately, I already have Hadley Hubs and they are the ones that Brian recommends the most for his Brake Therapy setup. As I suspected, the floating brake sounds like a very worthy upgrade for my Bullit. The only think I don't like about the Bullit is the brake jack and $300 is lot less expensive than buying a new frame altogether. I've had my eye on getting a VP Free but honestly can't afford it right now. They are awesome bikes and several of my buddies now own and love those bikes. I believe that I'd be happy to keep that Bullit for quite a while longer if it had the floater on it. With the 5th Element it really pedals well, and yes, I do climb the mountains around here as the closest lift is 3-4 hours away in Tahoe. "Pain Before Pleasure" is my moto! I think I'm going to go for it and order a floater set up!
Thanks again everyone!
Fortunately, I already have Hadley Hubs and they are the ones that Brian recommends the most for his Brake Therapy setup. As I suspected, the floating brake sounds like a very worthy upgrade for my Bullit. The only think I don't like about the Bullit is the brake jack and $300 is lot less expensive than buying a new frame altogether. I've had my eye on getting a VP Free but honestly can't afford it right now. They are awesome bikes and several of my buddies now own and love those bikes. I believe that I'd be happy to keep that Bullit for quite a while longer if it had the floater on it. With the 5th Element it really pedals well, and yes, I do climb the mountains around here as the closest lift is 3-4 hours away in Tahoe. "Pain Before Pleasure" is my moto! I think I'm going to go for it and order a floater set up!
Thanks again everyone!
I have a Bullit with a floater. Definitely one of the best upgrades I purchased. Definitely go for it. Brake Therapy is very worth it!
I have built several VP free's already this summer, and in my personal opinion, I would take a Bullit with a floater any day over one of those over built tanks. Too heavy, too tall, the travel doesn't sag very well, and the links are welded together (seriously, who does that?). A Bullit/floater combo is a simple durable solution that is light, flicky, and pedals great. It ain't no race bike, but it handles most sketchy situations while still being extremely versatile.lonewolfe said:
Here is copy and paste from another thread:
Salami said:
Hey, thanks for reply and the picture. That is a really nice looking Bullit. I think by stopping or at least greatly reducing the brake jack on the bike makes it pretty hard to beat. I wonder why Santa Cruz never came out with their own floating brake option for the Bullit? I guess because they wanted to sell lots of VP Free bikes in the future. I've ridden a couple of VP Free's and I don't think they have anything over the Bullit with a floater. The Bullit will also be lower maintenence with only a single pivot. The rear end my be stiffer on the VP Free but I sure could not really tell a difference.
You are joking, right?
You should not need a floater for a SGS. The SGS being a true 4-Bar linkage with the Horst link design should not have any brake jack as that is what the whole design is known for. Being fully active under braking etc....
Am I wrong?
You should not need a floater for a SGS. The SGS being a true 4-Bar linkage with the Horst link design should not have any brake jack as that is what the whole design is known for. Being fully active under braking etc....
Am I wrong?
ask HippieKai about it also, he ran one on his before he sold it this last year.
Did you read lonewolfe's post?me89 said:
Buying a floater for a Horst link bike is like buying a travel upgrade kit for an Armageddon. Yeah, you can do it, and there might be a slight performance difference, but why? There's not nearly enough to justify the added weight, complexity and expense.
Hi guys, Brian from Therapy Components here. I just wanted to thank everyone for the great comments, and willingness to share them. I never get tired of hearing it!!! I consider myself very fortunate to make products that people get so pumped about!! I hope and plan to make that a habit with new products as well.bikeguy100k said:
We do make one for the sgs, and contrary to popular belief, it is a big improvement for these (fsr/horst link/4 bar) bikes. Our customers with these are just as enthusiastic as our Bullit customers. And once again, money back guarantee if you don't like it.me89 said:
I'm just curious, binary visions, have you tried one of our floaters on a horst link bike? Any floater on a horst link bike? Any floater on any bike?binary visions said:
I just want to know if your comments are from personal experience, or perhaps just conjecture. If not from personal experience, I would be happy to help arrange that. What bike do you ride?
Now if I can just get dw to try one on his new bike.......
i didnt alter the brake arm holes but did adjust the 'slider' frame mount and did notice some slight improvement, conforming to how i predicted the changes would work (in this case, it was in improving traction for 'smooth terrain' suspension movement).shock said:
To be honest, i havent been paying much attention to it since i'm still playing with the shock linkage and the new DHX, and the floater is such a drastic improvement and works so well that tweeks will be tough to plan. Basically both traction and activeness are really good, and the bike stays alot more level. I dont think i'll ever run a bike without one at this point.
When i'm finally set on the suspension setup, i'll try to refine the floater setup. I dont really want to mix the changes together.
Sounds similar to our experience on most bikes, once you get 80-90 percent of the improvement of having the floating brake, the effect is so dramatic that the remaining improvement can be subtle.zedro said:
But not mixing up changes??? Come on, be scientific, change everything at once, then try to guess which change did what, it's more fun that way....
Like when I heard one prominent pro, after his downhill practice run, throw his bike to his mechanic and say "change everything, it's all fvcked up"..
*cough* Point taken - I've never ridden a floater on a Horst link bike. However, I had back to back rides on a Bullit with your floater, and on a 2004 SGS. The suspension interaction I felt with the SGS when braking (after riding the Bullit which was, in fact, pretty cool to feel how little suspension interaction there was - and I certainly applaud the Therapy design efforts there) was so little as to be almost irrelevant to the ride.shock said:
I've had a couple rides on other various floater equipped bikes (DHS Mono for one), so I think I have a decent grasp on what neutral braking should feel like. And the SGS feels pretty close to that.
Just seems, to me, like an expensive solution to an almost non-existant problem. Do you guys keep any Horst bikes with floaters around (personal/team rides)? I see your display every year at Mt. Snow during the nationals - perhaps I could see about a ride on a floater-equipped Horst link.
Well, that gives you more credibility than 99% of the people that have a negative comment about floaters....binary visions said:
An expensive solution to an almost non-existant problem? I still think that's a bit of a strong comment without actually trying one. I think you would be very surprised how much an improvement can be made, even to a bike that has relatively good braking characteristics.
I say that based on my (admittedly biased, but hopefully still objective) testing, and from the comments from customers. Now, granted, those customers might be predisposed to think it would work, but I think the money back guarantee would prevent some of that.
I mean, one Intense M-1 customer went as far as to email Jeff Steber and tell him that's the way the bike should have come in the first place. And all of them (horst link customers) are just as enthusiastic about the improvement as the Bullit guys that posted here. Some of these guys are pros, who bought them, and certainly wouldn't race with something that didn't do any good, or wasn't worth the weight.
By the way, nobody notices the weight, but they all feel the performance gain.
As far as a test ride, most of the time we have single pivot bikes at the races. Ironically, I prefer a single pivot with a floater for less complexity, and pedal feedback doesn't really bother me...But I'd be happy to install one on your bike and let you take it down the hill, maybe leave your girlfreind as collateral or something...
And one last comment, expensive, I guess so, I've been fighting that from the beginning, but I just can't figure out how to make cheap stuff. I will say that we sell NO replacement parts at all, and we've been making floaters since about '98. But on the other hand, we're riding like $4-$5000 bicycles anyway, and if it improves the quaility of the ride in proportion to your tolerance to spend money on toys, then is it really expensive? (fight back urge to wax philosophical)
Ok, rant out, I just want people to try it before drawing conclusions..
Brian
Undoubtedly, and I admit I should try one before expressing a strong opinion about it. I just have a difficult time believing that eliminating the small amount of suspension interaction in a Horst link setup causes such an improvement as to justify the cost.shock said:
Which is not unreasonable (the cost, that is), I might add - I don't think you guys are producing unreasonably priced products at all. Quite the opposite, in fact, for the small amount of the population that is willing to drop the coin for something like this, or like the Go-Ride 888 crowns, I think the price is very reasonable. I'm assuming you guys aren't going home and rolling in piles of $100 bills. People are willing to spend ungodly amounts of money to shave nothing more than a few grams here and there, so to eliminate brake interaction with your suspension, the money for a Therapy setup seems a mere pittance.
Maybe I can let my buddy take his SGS to the races and we can set up a demo - I would certainly be interested to try it. And if I am proven wrong, I will gladly eat my words! Unfortunately, finances have stranded me without a DH bike at the moment, so I must rely on my Evil Imperial to carry me through. Think you could rig up a floater on that?!
hey, FINALLY got a Brake Therapy Floater the other week! I'm trying to get it to fit to my Chris King ISO disc hub w/ MUCH DIFFICULTY. Question: where do you find an IS (51MM) to a post (74mm) mount bracket as I have w/ the Brake Therapy bracket? My Hope M4 is a 51mm IS mount that needs to fit to the Brake Therapy bracket that is a 74mm post mount. I have seen 74mm post to IS 51mm adapters but am having difficulty finding the 51mm IS to 74mm post adapters. Lemme know if I am confusing anyone. This has been a struggle! The rotor is now an 8" - I was told that I could not use my original 7" Hope Floating rotor due to the adapter & bracket would only accept an 8"... (see my pics for a better picture of this confusion 
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Next question: Has anyone tried this w/a King ISO disc yet? Was told Brian (@ Brake Therapy) knew how to do this!! I have corresponded w/ Mike @ Brake Therapy - he said this was not possible & I would need to go w/a different hub. I cannot afford a new hub now & REEEEEALLY like my Kings. The rear has the 10mm "Fun Bolts" which is similiar to a thru axle design. I hope w/ the proper washers I can get this to work & complete this bike. THANKS EVERYONE (or anyone) for any help you can provide!
have you tried asking Brake Therapy?
could you not use the stock Bullit floating brake?
could you not use the stock Bullit floating brake?
hey, sorry it was Derek @ Brake Therapy, not Mike (he was @ Atom Lab I tried Brake Therapy - Derek replied back that I should go w/a more "turn-key" design. This woulda been OK if I did not already have a GREAT set of Kings just built for my bike already. Thought w/ the 10mm "Fun Bolt" option I have this would be relatively easy... If I had money or option to buy a stock Bullit brake I wouldnt be in this mess. Santa Cruz would want me to drop an additional $1600 on a new frame instead of helping me w/ my "old" (03-04) one Was told last year when I needed a bushing/ bearing kit that they were no longer offered by them & I needed to buy a new frame!!! This is pushing me to leave them in the Spring next year when I am planning on going to Transtion or Morewood for this very reason. I have had 3 Bullits since 2000, don't feel like I am appreciated very much by them now & there are other manufacturers out there trying a LOT HARDER.
I tried Brake Therapy - Derek replied back that I should go w/a more "turn-key" design. This woulda been OK if I did not already have a GREAT set of Kings just built for my bike already. Thought w/ the 10mm "Fun Bolt" option I have this would be relatively easy... If I had money or option to buy a stock Bullit brake I wouldnt be in this mess. Santa Cruz would want me to drop an additional $1600 on a new frame instead of helping me w/ my "old" (03-04) one Was told last year when I needed a bushing/ bearing kit that they were no longer offered by them & I needed to buy a new frame!!! This is pushing me to leave them in the Spring next year when I am planning on going to Transtion or Morewood for this very reason. I have had 3 Bullits since 2000, don't feel like I am appreciated very much by them now & there are other manufacturers out there trying a LOT HARDER.
hey, what kinda hub, brake, brake adapter ect. are you using here? I have a King ISO disc w/ Fun Bolts & a Hope Mono M4. Is that a King ISO w/ Fun Bolts I see here? Nice Root Beer color on the frame... 
* Sorry, this is referring to the "root beer" Bullit pictured earlier... forgot to list the original posting w/ this question.
* Sorry, this is referring to the "root beer" Bullit pictured earlier... forgot to list the original posting w/ this question.
Classic case of not enough research before purchase, how did you think this might work???........(sorry but it is true).
Your rear brake will not work with that new mount period. That vintage Hope brake came as a specific caliper to mount to a specific mount. If you look at your brake, you will see a number stamped into the mounting tab (3, 5, 7, etc) that signifies the rotor size and mount type. This was done to minimize parts, and keep weight low, but as you have found out, making changes in mount type or rotor size is VERY limited.
If you can find out how to mount the floater to your hub, you need at the least, a new rear caliper. It is possible that Hope USA might have an old spare around....
Your rear brake will not work with that new mount period. That vintage Hope brake came as a specific caliper to mount to a specific mount. If you look at your brake, you will see a number stamped into the mounting tab (3, 5, 7, etc) that signifies the rotor size and mount type. This was done to minimize parts, and keep weight low, but as you have found out, making changes in mount type or rotor size is VERY limited.
If you can find out how to mount the floater to your hub, you need at the least, a new rear caliper. It is possible that Hope USA might have an old spare around....
Dave, if he has a number 3 or 5 caliper your statement is 100% incorrect. Any other caliper number and you are correct. A #3 caliper with a Hope post mount adapter and 8" rotor will work perfectly.
Now the hub issue is another issue and I can't help with.
hey, what kinda hub, brake, brake adapter ect. are you using here? I have a King ISO disc w/ Fun Bolts & a Hope Mono M4. Is that a King ISO w/ Fun Bolts I see here? Nice Root Beer color on the frame...
* Sorry, this is referring to the "root beer" Bullit pictured earlier... forgot to list the original posting w/ this question.
That was my Bullit. Hub is a Hope Bulb with a non-quick release skewer.
I could not find the old Hope number to mount/rotor chart....and it has been a long while since I owned them (now on new post mount M4s)...but adapting the way he wants to go is a PITA.
He was running a 180mm rotor on an IS mount (whatever Hope part that was). I dont think there is any way to get enough space to fit an adapter and only space the caliper out only 20mm).
Maybe if he could go to a 220 rotor in back, but it wont fit in that frame....
He was running a 180mm rotor on an IS mount (whatever Hope part that was). I dont think there is any way to get enough space to fit an adapter and only space the caliper out only 20mm).
Maybe if he could go to a 220 rotor in back, but it wont fit in that frame....
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I missed the existing rotor size. If he is running a 7" rotor and the caliper is bolted to a rear IS mount with no adapters he would have a #8 caliper. A #8 caliper would not work with the floating brake unless a 9" rotor is used which won't clear the frame like you mentioned. Sounds like he is going to need to buy more parts.
I got this for $40, classic case of if I can't use it so what. Ebay & hundreds of Bullit owners would be happy to have it. If you were payin attention you would see I have an 8" rotor for this application (a 7" & a 6" also if need be) If I need to go w/a 6" I will sell it.
If YOU were paying attention, your answer pertaining to the caliper and adapters has been spelled out for you.
thanks for the help Salami, I had a 7" originally but have an 8" now which a mechanic/friend said would work fine. I'm thinking I may need another brake caliper (74mm post) which I am NOT interested in changing. I think Shimano makes an adapter (IS to post mount) that may work but I am waiting to find out. Looked to me like tyhe adapter is a front fork mount adapter not a rear (part # is SM MA F 180 S/P). This particular # is for a 180mm rotor however.