floating brake
- Thread starter zmtber
- Start date
they let the suspension move free even under braking. i just got mine and after only 1 ride on my new stab i can tell a %100 difference for the good. yea it adds weight, and most set-ups u can take off for races and put a spacer in.
it'll give better traction so better power transfer to the ground on the rough, but brake force is the same.zmtber said:
not that i could notice, but the fact that the brakes can be applied through a corner and have the suspension move freely gives you the sense that the brakes are more powerful
if your thinking about another frame in 6 months or so then dont bother. if u want to keep your stinky for a year or more then get it
2 reasons. It weighs 1lb (the guy had the grease removed from his hubs to save weight...), and when you brake in proper places (Ie: before braking bumps or after them or not at all) you don't need one.Dirtbike said:
It doesn't matter where you brake... Any time you brake on a single-pivot, the suspension will squat. It's hardly a matter of "proper braking." While a large amount of brake squat might be more noticeable/more of a hinderance over braking bumps, that doesn't mean that brake squat does not have an effect on the suspension in other situations. Face it. If you brake only on smooth terrain, you will not make it down the mountain in one piece.Transcend said:
Brake squat is an issue of personal preference, NOT skill.
Trust me, you don't feel it when you brake in smooth areas. I have ridden single pivots, specifically Oranges, for 5 years now. The only time the braking makes a difference is in bumps when you can feel it acting on the rear wheel. Anyone who says you can (on this bike especially) is full of it. It has everything to do with skill. The effect on the suspension is so ridiculously over hyped it's not even funny anymore.WheelieMan said:
Watch where the top 3-5 men brake on a world cup course. They will come into a corner hot and brake before or after the brake bumps (usually after). They will not brake in anything hairy at high speed.
I don't really think you'd need it, zmtber. I went from a Bighit (horst link, zero brake jack) to a Turner DHR (single pivot). When I'm riding I can honestly feel no difference between the two. Some DH bikes could benefit more from a floating brake than the DHR probably, depending on how the suspension is designed.
IMO it would be a waste of money.
IMO it would be a waste of money.
I can feel brake squat on my bike when simply riding down the street. (without the floater) Now granted I do have an extremely high-pivot bike. The "packing effect" that so many riders view negatively is definitely not evident when braking on smooth terrain, but this doesn't mean that brake squat/jack should be completely ignored. Call it hype if you'd like, but I and many others (including professionals) decide to run floating brakes for a reason.Transcend said:
The reason the top riders are braking before or after the braking bumps can be a result of the negative effects of brake squat. With a more neutral setup, there can be less "packing" of the suspension, therefore allowing for more traction in rough situations. A situation doesn't have to be particularly hairy for brake squat to alter the traction, geometry, weight distribution and effectiveness of suspension. The idea that one should never brake in braking bumps or similar rough terrain is completely flawed; sometimes it is unavoidable.
There are certainly arguments for not using floating brakes (like the effect of squat on geometry and weight transfer/distribution) but I maintain my position that these factors have to do with personal preference and not skill.
Pretend for a moment that floating brakes weighed nothing. You can bet that even more riders would explore the possibilities that floating brakes provide. Why should people be stuck with the way their bike rides? The infinite floater setups possible is something that should be considered in depth, just like the setup of shocks. It's really too bad that the weight of floating brakes (which is actually very reasonable) is preventing people from exploring the possibilities that they provide.
Misconception #1- Horst Link designs have zero "brake jack"black noise said:
Of course you can feel the squat on flat pavement, that's the point. My orange has some pretty hefty chain stretch, i feel that when i hit some sweet jumps off the sidewalk. You won't feel it on a mountain though, and you certainly won't during a race run.WheelieMan said:
Would more pros check them out if they were weight free? Nope. More to break, and it doesn't effect them. Way too much hype over floaters with amateur (non-pro, not crappy) riders. They think it will buy them a second or two - it won't.
If Cedric or Steve thought it would buy them even 1/1000th of a second they would run them, it is that simple. I have done lots of riding on single pivots, prototypes etc. I have ridden the exact same bike with and without a floater - it really doesnt make much of a difference that braking at the proper time can't make.
If it works for you, great. But I'd be willing to be it was more placebo then physics you are experiencing.
I certainly have felt brake squat when riding on a mountain (where the negative effects are pronounced), and that's why I use a floating brake. I don't have to run it, but I do...Transcend said:
Broken floating brake? Haha, never heard of that happening before.
This is not simply an argument over the effectiveness of floating brakes, but also all linkages types. For example there are Horst Link designs that emulate a floating brake, like the Demo9 and Ellsworth Dare.
If a pro could have the brake squat on their bike increased by 25% or decreased by 25% magically without affecting weight or durabilitiy, you can bet they aren't going to automatically prefer the original squat level. They are probably going to feel that one way rides better than the other. Whether they prefer more squat like Fabien Barel, or less squat like Rich Houseman (who I believe ran a floating brake on his Foes) I don't really care. But I think it's stupid to assume that the pivot position selected by the bike manufacturer is automatically most desireable for braking. Case in point: Fabien's floater setup. While I dislike his setup, he still feels that it's making him faster.
Basicly, transcend is saying you really don't need one if you ride your bike correctly.zmtber said:
There's never prefection in mtn biking... There'll always be situations where you'll grab a handful of brake in the wrong place. So, in those times, would the weight and complexity of the floater justify you NOT skip off the trail...? Personally, I ride a floater on a Tomac 204. Comming off of an Army for a DH bike, and an Enduro Pro for a trail bike, the 204 behaves like, if not better than these two in the chatters and panic braking and its pivot is well fwd and higher than the BB axle. If you need, do a search in the pics for "Tomac 204" for how it's set up on this frame. I don't mean to discount Transcend, but me likey mine.
Its so hard to beleive how a piece of tubing and small piece of machined aluminum weighs a pound.
Really? I have pictures of 4 of them if you'd like to see them.WheelieMan said:
Anyways, buy into the hype if you want, but unless you are riding a tomac (which was horrendous) or a few other select models, it will make absolutely no difference other then in your head and in the pockets of aftermarket floater kit salespeople.
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I am just amazed that they weigh so much.
...but then you would have to sell your bike to get the carbon fiber.zmtber said:
I am just amazed that they weigh so much.
I too think floaters are highly over rated. Not having one on your bike will not hinder your performance, speed, or even comfort level. They will not make you a better rider. I've owned a bike with a floater and several without and there was not one shred of difference in my riding.
A floating brake sounds like it could hinder you as in become a better rider. With a floating brake, someone would be able to brake through everything, when at times it may be faster to lay off the brakes.Wayne said:
My most receint personal experience: '03 foes fly vs '05 DHR. both are very similar pivot location single pivots, and to be honest, i was a little unsure about how the DHR would feel after the Fly. Well...i cannot tell any difference at all while riding and believe me I tried (i bought into it). Just dont think that if you buy a floater that you will be able to brake in all the wrong places, it will not work.
On another note take a look at Fabien's bike, he has a floater set up to ACCENTUATE brake induced squat!! hmmmmm
On another note take a look at Fabien's bike, he has a floater set up to ACCENTUATE brake induced squat!! hmmmmm
To say that a floating brake won't do anything is downright ignorant. Depending on the design, it can do a hell of a lot. I know on my Kona, i was blown away how active it kept things in whistler.
What you are forgetting is that not all riders are at the same level. A lesser rider will panic if their bike starts skipping, as its precived as a lack of control. I am not a good rider, and i know it makes me nervous.
The floater kept the Kona from stinkbugging in corners, and helped keep the rear wheel on the ground. It simply allows (depending on the design) for moer control.
do you needone? depends on what you are looking for. The floaters can be made pretty damn light, but there is a definite weight penalty. How much of a penalty depends on your checkbook.
What you are forgetting is that not all riders are at the same level. A lesser rider will panic if their bike starts skipping, as its precived as a lack of control. I am not a good rider, and i know it makes me nervous.
The floater kept the Kona from stinkbugging in corners, and helped keep the rear wheel on the ground. It simply allows (depending on the design) for moer control.
do you needone? depends on what you are looking for. The floaters can be made pretty damn light, but there is a definite weight penalty. How much of a penalty depends on your checkbook.
Like I said, on most designs. The kona is a good example of a bike where it makes a big difference, granted. On a more traditional single pivot (224/223, gemini etc) the difference i mush less profound.dropmachine.com said:
I rode one on a 223 for 2 years, then i rode a 223 without, noticeable in the really rough stuff, but that's it. The 224 has a slightly lower pivot, a floater would now make so little difference, that it is useless.
I agree 100% with the fact that the more skill you have, the less impact it will have. I rode one for just that reason, i didn't want to get out of control on braking bumps leading into corners etc. I learned to brake better, and learned to get over the panic and try to ride the bike with slightly less direct control (read: no more death grip). It made a difference.
I remember riding my trusty old 2000 Giant ATX DH bike in rocky sections and the rear end would stiffen up like crazy! I'm sure a floating brake would of helped. The design was similar to Kona except for the swingarm pivot to be much higher (so maybe no so similar). When I got my Nuke, I noticed the bike would track better in the same sections but the suspension would also squat more...that I liked!
That's flat wrong. The amount of brake interaction has to do with the amount of caliper rotation, not the high or low pivot. More caliper rotation=more interaction with the suspension. This is a function of it being a single pivot, not where that pivot is.Transcend said:
I think the biggest factor that gets ignored is that the actual conditions where a floating brake would benefit someone are fairly rarely encountered. This doesn't mean that they don't exist, but you have to be going down a steep enough slope to require serious brake usage, and that slope has to be rocky enough to cause your bike to be using significant amounts of suspension. This is when the rear end starts to "skip" and not compress enough for the bumps, but you aren't going to notice this effect by doing straightaways with no brakes and then doing a max breaking effort for every corner. That might still be "steep" terrain, but not as steep as what I have in mind. The terrain where you notice a big difference has to be pretty crazy, require a lot of constant brake use rather than just little short pulses, and be rocky enough that traction and control are a concern. I notice where my horst link bikes outperform my single pivots, but as a percentage of the riding that I do it's extremely small. It's not like I notice every day or every ride the benefits of a horst-link in terms of braking.
On the other hand, in these rare situations I like to maintain control of my bike, so I want it to "work". I don't want to lug around a floating brake all of the time for the rare occasions where I feel it makes a difference, so I choose a horst link bike that has some of the benefits. If I was still riding a single pivot I probably would not "upgrade" to a floating brake due to what I said above about how it doesn't constitute the majority of my riding. I really doubt it would constitute the majority of ANYONE's riding, it's just that certain people want their suspension to keep working in those more extreme situations, and there's nothing wrong with that.
zmtber said:
"Damn. Since I am too lazy to use the search function I will just start a new thread about something that has been talked about in countless threads and will go countless pages like every one before it."
One thing I should add is that if you've already got one, its definitely not a hinderance.
In fact, its probably smarter for companies to put floaters on their bikes because realistically they would probably sell better.
In fact, its probably smarter for companies to put floaters on their bikes because realistically they would probably sell better.
Wrong. This brings me back to my point about multi-pivots like the Demo and Dare that emulate a neutral floating brake. Basically what you just said would also mean that a Demo 8 prevents you from becoming a better rider. (The Demo has has near parallel links similar to a floating brake). I've never heard anyone complain about the Demo being "too neutral" and hindering their riding.mtnbrider said:
Ummm.. I broke a rod once. But I don't count, I'm a hack.WheelieMan said:
I'm pretty sure most Gemini's have to have the floater. The frame doesn't have brake mounts. I had a floated on my Gemini and broke it. Had to get it replaced. I wish I didn't have it. I'm with Transcend on this argument. I would never think about putting a floater on my Ventana.zmtber said:well i have noticed the new judge bike check it out you can tell me what i am looking at:
WheelieMan said:
It's all give and take, some designs are better at one thing, others another thing. Haven't ridden several bikes over the years, the floater or lack of floater has never really helped or hurt me. It's just a different feel to me. Like fraser said alot of type guys dont use them, since they get all the brakeing done on smoother ground. So you need one no single pivots no, do some people perfer the feel they give yes. I've never seen one a a Turner DHR, or even heard anyone saying boy I wish i had one.
The Geminis if im not misaken had to run floaters.