Foes...geesh, no attention to detail...they left the valve cap off the Curnutt. Buncha hacks those guys.
Foes 2:1 Mono . . . not for the faint of heart.
- Thread starter James | Go-Ride
- Start date
Ok - let me just say before I get into this rant, that I have nothing against Foes in general, nor do I think they're crappy bikes or that they ride badly (from my limited experience they're quite nice). The geo might be fantastic and it may be a super cool ride in that respect.The Kadvang said:
Mainly what I have issues with is the use of non-standard stuff. This would be one thing if it was just a custom bit that you could swap out if you needed to (for example a custom worked fork that still fit normal frames/hubs/brakes), but it's not - that Curnutt shock isn't swappable with anything (that I know of, maybe Avalanche make some retardohuge size that would fit), and when you start making stuff that big I fail to see how the potential advantages (more consistency - I can't say I've ever had any problems with rear shock consistency to be honest, maybe I don't do enough 20-minute-braking-bump sections) could outweigh the disadvantages such as being stuck with only one shock option etc, and I can't imagine how that shock could be anywhere near the weight of a stock unit (no not talking about the spring).
And the whole 2:1 shock ratio thing - in my own opinion, based purely on my own experiences, that's a bit of a wank. There are reasons why the shock isn't mounted at the axle (for a ~1:1 ratio); it helps to have mechanical advantage over the shock for lower total weight, shock rate tunability (not that Foes appear to be big on that anyway), and so that you don't have such temperamental adjustments and overdamping problems. Look at the problems the Sundays have had with their slightly-lower-than-normal shock ratios and the resultant overdamped-as-stock shocks. Yes I am aware that the Curnutts are valved to suit the ratio, but I am also under the impression that Push, Progressive, Avalanche etc found it pretty difficult to actually valve shocks light enough for the Sunday as it is.
Anyway, just my somewhat-speculative opinion. I'm sure it rides pretty nicely though.
I wasn't super impressed with the Curnut, definitely far from the best shock I've owned, better than the progressive 5th element, but it didn't "suspend"(the primary duty of a shock) as well as my DHXs. Construction of the curnut is tops, and it has potential, so I'd imagine with the 2:1 leverage you could definitely "tweak" the damping to erase some of the traits I noticed.Radarr said:
This is a valid concern, but this is why Foes is a botique manufacturer. They aren't making cookie-cutter bikes, and I think everyone here can see that there is a point to what they are doing, it's not like foes is doing things like this just for the heck of it, the have an objective and a purpose. And just a little sidenote, this seems like it may be the first year where what you just said may be true, but in the past you could swap out shocks on most of the foes bikes, just not the Mono/Tube DHR.thaflyinfatman said:
[qoute]
I can't say I've ever had any problems with rear shock consistency to be honest, maybe I don't do enough 20-minute-braking-bump sections) could outweigh the disadvantages such as being stuck with only one shock option etc, and I can't imagine how that shock could be anywhere near the weight of a stock unit (no not talking about the spring).[/quote]
This is the old "don't knock it untill you try it" line. How many people thought Jr Ts were great forks and "plush" all the time untill they tried something better? We don't have a frame of reference about "how" our bikes could be better, but I wouldn't go as far to ever say that nothing can improve. The curnut shocks are NOT light, they are quite heavy, but most of the weight from a shock comes from the spring because it's solid metal, a much lighter spring is going to mean a much lighter shock, and it looks like foes has lightened things up with the standard curnut as well. It will probably still be heavier than other stuff, but not as bad as before.
I probably wouldn't ride another curnut equipped bike again, or I'd have to experience a lot of difference between what I felt when I owned one and the new ones, but they definitely have a purpose and an objective.
Actually, Progressive hasn't had any problem valving their shocks for the Sundays or the 7Points when they were putting the right valving in. The problem wasn't being able to do it, it was just that the wrong shocks got sent out. Progressive is revalving them for free, and it only takes a couple of days. Also, this concern more or less is totally irrelevant to Foes since the frame and rear shock are both made by hand in the same facility. The frame is designed around the 5" Curnutt, and the 5" Curnutt is designed for this frame. We're not talking about revalving or aftermarket stuff here, this is inception-to-delivery, all-inclusive design.thaflyinfatman said:
The Curnutt I had on my bike just felt choppy. I couldn't get use to the pedal platform. My FLY was super fast with the Curnutt but you could feel the Curnutt in your feel and hands. I hated it. Just my opinion. I have talked with a few guys that say the newer Curnutts are a little better.
Not yet. Maybe we can get the guy who had access to pics of the complete bike in the backyard of Foes to hit the bike with an anglefinder and tape measure.DHJay said:
Spring rate is inversely proportional to the length of the spring, and roughly directly proportional to the thickness (area) of the wire. Do the math in your head and let me know if the spring on a 5" stroke shock is lighter than a spring on a 3" stroke shock.Jm_ said:
I'm not really speaking from much experience with them - I've only ridden a Fly with a Curnut once. But that one time was enough to really impress me. The one thing that I noticed more than anything else was that it really felt like it was "suspending" the rear end. Maybe it's a tuning thing? The guy who owned the bike was pretty much the same size as I am.Jm_ said:
wow... that beast with the XTD fork gives me a half mongrel...
ohio said:
He's talking about for a given spring construction (thickness, coils etc). If you double the length, you halve the spring rate - think of putting any two of the same spring end to end.ragin-sagin said:
Yeah, once they got it figured out, THEN it was easy enough to replicate - but again, from what I've gathered from the guys posting here, to get that tune right originally was difficult; I'm 99% sure the Push guys found it pretty tricky. I still don't see it as being irrelevant, because it shows the inherent difficulty in valving a shock that lightly (although it may be easier with a longer stroke/larger volume shock where you can valve it more like a fork or something), and when you have the CVT/SPV valve to contend with at an extremely low leverage ratio, then a logical (although perhaps easily proven wrong) concern would be that the SPV valve now has a higher mechanical advantage over the axle. I'm sure this kind of thing *can* be tuned out, but it still doesn't strike me as the most phantastic idea ever.James | Go-Ride said:
Fair enough about the boutique thing, but when I pay that amount for a frame, I would REALLY appreciate being able to run it with stuff that *I* choose, rather than whatever comes stock. And my comments were only related to the DH bikes, I never paid much attention to their other stuff.Jm_ said:
I'm not saying nothing can improve, I'm saying that increasing the shock size for the purpose of "more consistency" doesn't strike me as the best way to improve the performance, given that I've never found any of the shocks I've ridden to have any noticeable inconsistency. But yes you may be right, it might just be better than everything else out there and I'll never realise just how much my current setup sucks until I ride it.
Foes claimed that the 5" spring weighed about the same as a 3" unit right? So there's no actual *savings* there, it's just not any worse in that respect. Given that spring weights themselves appear to be comparable with conventional units, when you have a much much larger body, obviously a much higher volume of oil, bigger shaft etc, the shock simply isn't going to be in the same weight league (unless they've done some super tricky stuff to lighten it up, which they may have for all I know).
i think a key word could be "sensitivity", and just like a shock doesnt like being overdamped with a high ratio, it would be sensible to think that for a given design the opposite would be true. But like was mentioned, if it was designed and not comprimised around it, then i couldnt se a problem.thaflyinfatman said:
Yeah, *if* they managed to valve it properly for the frame, then it may work really well. That "if" is where my concerns lie though.zedro said:
Edit: I should clarify, I'm not trying to heap turds on the bike (or Foes, despite how it may sound) - I'm sure it rides really nicely and all, I'm just debating (pointlessly) the merits of the setup.
Jm_ said:
Yeah, and? I never claimed that all other bikes were *properly* accomodated for with their valving.
wow...that's a sick TOMAC....
hopefully it doesn't detonate like every other bicycle foes has ever made......f*ck that company....worst in the industry when it comes to standing behind their products....
I will say that it does LOOK nice, but so did all of their other bikes that were riddled with cracks....at 10" i think it's a little excessive, but maybe for the freeride fall off of roof crowd it will do....oh wait, nevermind, it will crack...
hopefully it doesn't detonate like every other bicycle foes has ever made......f*ck that company....worst in the industry when it comes to standing behind their products....
I will say that it does LOOK nice, but so did all of their other bikes that were riddled with cracks....at 10" i think it's a little excessive, but maybe for the freeride fall off of roof crowd it will do....oh wait, nevermind, it will crack...
Ian Collins said:
You reckon Foes are bad, you should see what those Turner DHRs do if you so much as look at em wrong...
thaflyinfatman said:
Exaclty a buddy of mine went thru 3 dhr front ends in 2 months and ended up racing worlds on a borrowed M3.
Before the turner he rode Foes for years and never broke a single farme.
Dear lord not 2 inches of fury.... She said give me 10 inches hard so I f@wked her 5 times and slapped her... Bike looks sicker than Paul after a 6 pack on non-alcoholic beer.. Foes never claimed to be compatible and if you want to run different shocks buy something else, pretty sure Brent is making what he feels is his best bike and good on him for stepping out of the norm.
partsbara said:
thaflyinfatman said:
I've been riding DHR's for 5 years and never had a problem, i cracked the only foes I ever owned, and my cousin broke a downtube in half, then snapped a head tube off...everyone I know that has owned a foes has broken it, but i've never MET anyone that has cracked at turner....I'm sure that's all just a coincidence
my real problem is that foes doesn't accept thier problems, I can name 4 examples of someone cracking a foes and foes not even offering them a replacement frame at shop cost.....most people in the industry give you a new frame for free, foes won't even SELL you a new frame, that's a great way to win the hearts of customers.....if you have a problem with a turner, there is a new one on your doorstep the next day.....
You're so arrogant, it's almost funny. Hey, did it ever occur to you that you're particular experience might not be a perfect cross section of the entire mountain bike community?Ian Collins said:I'm sure that's all just a coincidence
There were at least three posts in a very short period of time on here about three different people cracking their 2003 Turner DHRs, I believe it was at the main pivot. Kidwoo was one of them, IIRC.
Ian Collins said:I've been riding DHR's for 5 years and never had a problem, i cracked the only foes I ever owned, and my cousin broke a downtube in half, then snapped a head tube off...everyone I know that has owned a foes has broken it, but i've never MET anyone that has cracked at turner....I'm sure that's all just a coincidence
my real problem is that foes doesn't accept thier problems, I can name 4 examples of someone cracking a foes and foes not even offering them a replacement frame at shop cost.....most people in the industry give you a new frame for free, foes won't even SELL you a new frame, that's a great way to win the hearts of customers.....if you have a problem with a turner, there is a new one on your doorstep the next day.....
This is the kind of info that worries me when I am thinking about getting a Foes frame.......
It worries me even more that you would let one person's opinion steer you away from a particular company.seismic said:This is the kind of info that worries me when I am thinking about getting a Foes frame.......
WheelieMan said:
I am not steering away - just speculating
But since I have no first hand experience with Foes I can only listen to what people tells me...
Ian Collins said:I've been riding DHR's for 5 years and never had a problem, i cracked the only foes I ever owned, and my cousin broke a downtube in half, then snapped a head tube off...everyone I know that has owned a foes has broken it, but i've never MET anyone that has cracked at turner....I'm sure that's all just a coincidence
my real problem is that foes doesn't accept thier problems, I can name 4 examples of someone cracking a foes and foes not even offering them a replacement frame at shop cost.....most people in the industry give you a new frame for free, foes won't even SELL you a new frame, that's a great way to win the hearts of customers.....if you have a problem with a turner, there is a new one on your doorstep the next day.....
They didn't offer me anything either but they did say they would FIX it IF it fell under warranty. Keep your fingers crossed. We will see.
Ill let ya know in a few weeks how Foes handles my frame. I cracked my Foes and Im sending it in Mon. We will see how they treat me. So far I got an RA number. Then I called back because I had a few more questions and now no returned phone calls. Ive left 4 messages and 2 emails last week and nothing. Ill give them a few more days. They should have my frame Wednesday or Thursday.seismic said:I am not steering away - just speculating
But since I have no first hand experience with Foes I can only listen to what people tells me...
Bike frames crack.... that just life. A good company will stand behind their product when it happens. I have no doubt in my mind that Foes will FIX my frame.
Then the question comes in account.... do I want it fixed or am I willing to pay extra for a new frame. I am willing to buy a new frame but is that even an option? We will see. I still love Foes and will continue buying their frames.
you prolly wont hear back from them til after interbike. i was waiting for a bike last year for ever it felt like bc they were gearing up/going to i-bike.Kanter said:
My buddy had his frame crack out of the warranty and they gave him a crash replacement at standard warranty cost.
Also WCH had some dealing with them and i believe he was very happy with the outcome
thats a very nice frame.
well theres another point about the small builder, any big bike event and it seems like the whole company CS goes MIAsnowskilz said:
WheelieMan said:
that is not an opinion...that is one person giving countless examples of garbage service.....my opinion is that i don't like them, and it was backed up with FACTS as to why the blow
a) I was just stirring you up cos I know how much of a turner whore you areIan Collins said:I've been riding DHR's for 5 years and never had a problem, i cracked the only foes I ever owned, and my cousin broke a downtube in half, then snapped a head tube off...everyone I know that has owned a foes has broken it, but i've never MET anyone that has cracked at turner....I'm sure that's all just a coincidence
my real problem is that foes doesn't accept thier problems, I can name 4 examples of someone cracking a foes and foes not even offering them a replacement frame at shop cost.....most people in the industry give you a new frame for free, foes won't even SELL you a new frame, that's a great way to win the hearts of customers.....if you have a problem with a turner, there is a new one on your doorstep the next day.....
b) I've only ever seen one broken Foes in the flesh, and it was a 4 or 5 year old DHS Tube. I have, however, seen three broken DHRs (main pivot, shock link x 2).
c) I really don't actually give a toss, ride what ya like
binary visions said:
dude....read my post....my main gripe is that they are horrible about replacing frames, they won't even offer replacement cost(a service through which they still profit, and keep the rider on their frame).....i'm sure all of those DHR's were replaced as soon as turner was aware of it, and i'm know that turner changed the design as soon as they were aware of it, something foes also doesn't do....
what i'm saying is....all bikes break, foes break more often, they are a grand more than everything else, and they won't get replaced WHEN they break......not sure how that shows any arrogance....
Ahaha, oh dear... don't we just love such statementsIan Collins said:
Ian Collins said:
you know, i think i can relate to that, when i heard that happen to a rider friend of mine i also thought it was a weird policy, and didnt quite find a word for it other than that it was very effective in having the customer vowing to never use their products again even though he liked them, now that you say so, arrogance would be a fitting term, yes.
Ian Collins said:
I'm not sure if it's arrogance either - maybe it's your hostile tone, but if you contact a company of any kind with an attitude, you are probably not going to get accommodative service. That's not saying you or your friends did - just making an observation. I have never personally seen anyone break a FOES frame; I have seen the pics of Kanters bike here on RM with the cracks. As far as FOES, not making some changes to known problem areas on there frames, is simply not true. Where Kanter's bike cracked, they made a change so future generations of the frame would not fail in the same place - that sounds like a proactive change to me.