[Kntr]

My bike does have the reinforcement on the other side where my frame broke.

Did they make another change?

Im curious to see what Foes is going to offer me. I will definately let everyone know. I really love Foes and will probably ride a Foes bike for many years to come...... well it depends on how they handle my current situation.

In the past Foes has hooked me up no questions asked. I hated the Curnutt so they sent me a Romic, a jersey, sticker kit, and a S floater to compensate for the price difference. I thought that was great. This was a few years ago and I have heard that a lot has changed.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

wow...that's a sick TOMAC....

hopefully it doesn't detonate like every other bicycle foes has ever made......f*ck that company....worst in the industry when it comes to standing behind their products....

I will say that it does LOOK nice, but so did all of their other bikes that were riddled with cracks....at 10" i think it's a little excessive, but maybe for the freeride fall off of roof crowd it will do....oh wait, nevermind, it will crack...

1) The Tomac was an 8" bike with a 2.75" shock, not a 10" bike with a 5" shock. The Tomac linkage was progressive, the Foes linkage is linear. Just because a bike has a pivot and a shock doesn't make it the same bike. Foes has been making single pivot DH bikes since the beginning of time. If anything, Bradbury ripped off some Foes elements.

2) We've had to warranty two Foes bikes in five years.

3) 10" probably is excessive. Ask Santa Cruz, that V10 sure seemed to be a total bomb for them.

You sound like me with Titus.

 

[WheelieMan]

1) The Tomac was an 8" bike with a 2.75" shock, not a 10" bike with a 5" shock. The Tomac linkage was progressive, the Foes linkage is linear. Just because a bike has a pivot and a shock doesn't make it the same bike. Foes has been making single pivot DH bikes since the beginning of time. If anything, Bradbury ripped off some Foes elements.

2) We've had to warranty two Foes bikes in five years.

3) 10" probably is excessive. Ask Santa Cruz, that V10 sure seemed to be a total bomb for them.

You sound like me with Titus.

Wow, it's refreshing for someone to tell it like it is! Thanks!

 

[kidwoo]

There were at least three posts in a very short period of time on here about three different people cracking their 2003 Turner DHRs, I believe it was at the main pivot. Kidwoo was one of them, IIRC.

True. 2003 had some problems. The swing links on early runs broke....new ones at my house within 2 days. And when I noticed some small hairlines at the main pivot, I called them the next morning and there was literally a new 2004 front triangle on my porch when I got home the next day. I like those guys.

I've been looking at that one in every wrong way I can for a year now but nothing happens. Maybe I'm just not looking at it wrong
enough.

Judging by the number of turners I saw this weekend at mammoth, no one else seems to know how to look at them wrong enough either. Anybody know what happens when you do look at them wrong?

 

[binary visions]

I like those guys.

Undoubtedly. I knew the situation was resolved quickly and they were very generous, I was just illustrating that here's someone claiming that he's never even met someone who cracked a Turner DHR, but knows people who have cracked Foes, and somehow that's representative of all the bikes.

 

[kidwoo]

Undoubtedly. I knew the situation was resolved quickly and they were very generous, I was just illustrating that here's someone claiming that he's never even met someone who cracked a Turner DHR, but knows people who have cracked Foes, and somehow that's representative of all the bikes.

Yeah, I was just backing up what you were saying about my bike. It done busted.

Incidently, I have seen in person, one broken mono but I'd still have absolutely no reservations about sending myself off of large drops or pounding the piss out of some rocks with those frames. Foes makes some solid bikes.

 

[Ian Collins]

1) The Tomac was an 8" bike with a 2.75" shock, not a 10" bike with a 5" shock. The Tomac linkage was progressive, the Foes linkage is linear. Just because a bike has a pivot and a shock doesn't make it the same bike. Foes has been making single pivot DH bikes since the beginning of time. If anything, Bradbury ripped off some Foes elements.

2) We've had to warranty two Foes bikes in five years.

3) 10" probably is excessive. Ask Santa Cruz, that V10 sure seemed to be a total bomb for them.

You sound like me with Titus.

I was joking about the tomac thing.....i actually was under the assumption that it would be a linear linkage...those are a brilliant way to add a pound or two to a bike, and also wonderful because you add 3 useless pivots that will wear out and be expensive to replace later down the line......I KNOW they stiffen the frame, but there are other ways to accomplish the same goal without adding weight and useless moving parts....look at orange....that's the stiffest bike on the market and it has no linkage and it's probably 4 pounds lighter than this frame....this bike does look like it will fit the bill for heavier freeride oriented crowd....but we'll see....

oh, and about the warranty thing...i'm assuming that you've warranted only two frames because you are a primarily a mail order outfit....I'm sure you sell alot of bikes locally, but anyone buying online would just go through foes for warranty.....all speculation, but i'm willing to bet my left arm that out off all of the frames you've sold, more than two have broken....

no hard feelings, just being the devils advocate....someone has to do it

 

[Ian Collins]

Undoubtedly. I knew the situation was resolved quickly and they were very generous, I was just illustrating that here's someone claiming that he's never even met someone who cracked a Turner DHR, but knows people who have cracked Foes, and somehow that's representative of all the bikes.

ok...I'm claiming it's representative of all bikes because I know of about 15-20 people who own or owned turners without problems, and i know about 8-10 people who own/owned foes and all of them have had problems and gotten F'd over on the warranty end...I wouldn't call that going out on a limb would you?

i'm also bitter because in two instances my friends were hurt pretty badly when the frames snapped completely in half.....foes claimed that they were running a fork that was too stiff for their "racing frame".....they were both running '00 monster T's, and they were both literally riding down a fairly smooth, flat section of course(thank god!).....those are catastrophic failures that were unwarranted(without replacement cost offer) and the owners were told to F off......with turner if there is a hairline fracture, you get off the phone and walk to your door and there is a new frame on the porch.......based on all of these points I don't think it's unfair for me to say that foes is horrible, and I shouldn't have to mention all of this crap just to validate myself....

 

[Inclag]

I was joking about the tomac thing.....i actually was under the assumption that it would be a linear linkage...those are a brilliant way to add a pound or two to a bike, and also wonderful because you add 3 useless pivots that will wear out and be expensive to replace later down the line......I KNOW they stiffen the frame, but there are other ways to accomplish the same goal without adding weight and useless moving parts....look at orange....that's the stiffest bike on the market and it has no linkage and it's probably 4 pounds lighter than this frame....this bike does look like it will fit the bill for heavier freeride oriented crowd....but we'll see....

oh, and about the warranty thing...i'm assuming that you've warranted only two frames because you are a primarily a mail order outfit....I'm sure you sell alot of bikes locally, but anyone buying online would just go through foes for warranty.....all speculation, but i'm willing to bet my left arm that out off all of the frames you've sold, more than two have broken....

no hard feelings, just being the devils advocate....someone has to do it

You do know that having a linkage driven shock will allow for a much more finely tuned shock/spring curve, and since this bike uses such a massive shock and low leverage ratio that could be the reason for it. A non-linkage actuated single pivot isn't always linear, in fact it is never perfectly linear.

 

[Inclag]

I will also add I would never ride a Foes or a Turner DHR.

 

[Ian Collins]

You do know that having a linkage driven shock will allow for a much more finely tuned shock/spring curve, and since this bike uses such a massive shock and low leverage ratio that could be the reason for it. A non-linkage actuated single pivot isn't always linear, in fact it is never perfectly linear.

I am aware of both of those things, but I also know that you need much heavier valving with non progressive linkage shocks, and shocks driven by progressive linkages need much less tuning.....

 

[kidwoo]

I will also add I would never ride a Foes or a Turner DHR.

Why is that?

 

[Inclag]

I am aware of both of those things, but I also know that you need much heavier valving with non progressive linkage shocks, and shocks driven by progressive linkages need much less tuning.....

And a 2:1 leverage ratio used with a "straight rate" (I say this because I doubt it's a truly straight suspension curve) will need a shock with much less ramp though as say a bike with a 3.5:1 leverage ratio.

Lets see if this bike works before we tear it apart. If people want to buy a Foes great. If they want a Turner that's great too. As long as they are having fun.

 

[Inclag]

Why is that?

I have my reasons. I just don't want to start any E-Wars, I'll leave that to Mr. Collins

 

[kidwoo]

I have my reasons. I just don't want to start any E-Wars, I'll leave that to Mr. Collins

I can appreciate that.

I really am curious though. Shoot me a PM. I'm not going to jump down your thoat or anything, I'm just thinking you might know something that I don't.

 

[seismic]

I will also add I would never ride a Foes or a Turner DHR.

so...just out of curiosity....what do you ride then ?

 

[Christiaan]

 

[seismic]

only see the red X ....

 

[James | Go-Ride]

I was joking about the tomac thing.....i actually was under the assumption that it would be a linear linkage...those are a brilliant way to add a pound or two to a bike, and also wonderful because you add 3 useless pivots that will wear out and be expensive to replace later down the line......I KNOW they stiffen the frame, but there are other ways to accomplish the same goal without adding weight and useless moving parts....look at orange....that's the stiffest bike on the market and it has no linkage and it's probably 4 pounds lighter than this frame....this bike does look like it will fit the bill for heavier freeride oriented crowd....but we'll see....

oh, and about the warranty thing...i'm assuming that you've warranted only two frames because you are a primarily a mail order outfit....I'm sure you sell alot of bikes locally, but anyone buying online would just go through foes for warranty.....all speculation, but i'm willing to bet my left arm that out off all of the frames you've sold, more than two have broken....

no hard feelings, just being the devils advocate....someone has to do it

Actually the linkage is a necessity on this new bike. You have to figure with a 2:1 leverage ratio, without a linkage the shock would have to be mounted halfway down the swingarm. I'm not sure how you figure most linkage systems are useless anyhow; granted on previous model Foes bikes the linkage didn't drive the shock and existed to stiffen up the bike. However, in a general sense having linkage on a single-pivot bike is almost always better. Bearings for linkage is typically about $20 for the whole kit.

How do you figure the Orange is the stiffest bike on the market? Not likely. Not likely at all.

Generally Foes prefers that customers go through the dealer for warranty, and we've sold more locally that online. Also recall that we raced their frames for two seasons as our team DH bike. Probably more than two have broken, I don't doubt you there, but the others that may have been damaged were probably out of warranty or were damaged by user error rather than mfg defect.

PS - Also not trying to hate, I'm just confused as to how you've arrived at some of your conclusions.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

I can appreciate that.

I really am curious though. Shoot me a PM. I'm not going to jump down your thoat or anything, I'm just thinking you might know something that I don't.

He hates freedom.

Just kidding.

 

[kidwoo]

He hates freedom.

Just kidding.

He blames american frames first.

 

[Inclag]

so...just out of curiosity....what do you ride then ?

I ride an Intense M1. Besides how it handles there are a plethora of things that annoy the hell out of me though. So to clarify, I don't want to give the impression that I think I am riding a superior bike. There is no one superior bike. Just one that allows you to have the most fun while riding.

 

[Ian Collins]

Actually the linkage is a necessity on this new bike. You have to figure with a 2:1 leverage ratio, without a linkage the shock would have to be mounted halfway down the swingarm. I'm not sure how you figure most linkage systems are useless anyhow; granted on previous model Foes bikes the linkage didn't drive the shock and existed to stiffen up the bike. However, in a general sense having linkage on a single-pivot bike is almost always better. Bearings for linkage is typically about $20 for the whole kit.

How do you figure the Orange is the stiffest bike on the market? Not likely. Not likely at all.

Generally Foes prefers that customers go through the dealer for warranty, and we've sold more locally that online. Also recall that we raced their frames for two seasons as our team DH bike. Probably more than two have broken, I don't doubt you there, but the others that may have been damaged were probably out of warranty or were damaged by user error rather than mfg defect.

PS - Also not trying to hate, I'm just confused as to how you've arrived at some of your conclusions.

Oh i know that this particular bike needs a linkage, there is no way you could run a 5" stroke shock without one(sensibly)....as far as stiffness goes, I will admit foes are damn stiff, but I've ridden alot of bikes, and the orange is bar none the stiffest, snappiest bike I've ridden.....Be One came in at a pretty close second, and I'd say turner third ...once again, my hate comes from my experiences.....sorry if i hijacked this thread, but to me this is scintillating conversation

 

[Jm_]

Oh i know that this particular bike needs a linkage, there is no way you could run a 5" stroke shock without one(sensibly)....as far as stiffness goes, I will admit foes are damn stiff, but I've ridden alot of bikes, and the orange is bar none the stiffest, snappiest bike I've ridden.....Be One came in at a pretty close second, and I'd say turner third ...once again, my hate comes from my experiences.....sorry if i hijacked this thread, but to me this is scintillating conversation

The design that orange uses doesn't lend itself to inherent stiffness. Companies like Foes and Yeti take the single pivot design, and fix this deficiancy. The problem is that the rear triangle makes a great "lever" arm, and can easily torque the main pivot mast, meaning it lacks stiffness and is tougher on shocks.

 

[zedro]

Oh i know that this particular bike needs a linkage, there is no way you could run a 5" stroke shock without one(sensibly)....

yeah i'm fairly sure that a straight mount (if even physically possible) would end up with one of two scenarios: in order to keep the shock from travelling into the falling rate range, the initial shock angle would be in the dangerous 'pivot lock' scenario causing a sticky inital stroke and wreak havoc on the shock itself from bending moments, or settle for a 10" Heckler....

Now it woulda been cool if somehow they arraged for a floating shock linkage that would stiffen the upper half of the swingarm.

 

[Ian Collins]

The design that orange uses doesn't lend itself to inherent stiffness. Companies like Foes and Yeti take the single pivot design, and fix this deficiancy. The problem is that the rear triangle makes a great "lever" arm, and can easily torque the main pivot mast, meaning it lacks stiffness and is tougher on shocks.

I understand that it beats up the shock and creates some binding btwn the shock shaft and the shaft nut/seal.....but compare the weight of the curnutt/foes to the fox/orange.....i'm guessing there is at least a 3-4 lb difference......I'd rather save that weight and risk having to the replace the shock once or twice in the life of the bike...you'd probably do this anyways due to the rapid increase in shock technology....

 

[Trigger]

If you have an idea, and nobody has made the parts to make your idea come alive...why can't you make custom parts then?

Foes has made a leap forward based on an idea, and people are giving them a hard time because they've tried to prove something without using standard parts so that people can change them into something that would kill Foes' idea.

Yeah right!

We wouldn't have any evolution if everybody used the parts that already exist...

 

[ragin-sagin]

Hehe. No.

In spite of your strong technical based counter punch to my statement, you are still incorrect. Lets get back on topic of a lame tech discussion! Yay!

The rate of a spring is independent of the length...it IS dependent upon the number of active coils. For instance you could have two springs, one 10 times the length of the other...if they are both the same wire diameter, same material, same coil diameter and have the same number of active coils, they will have identical spring constants (assuming Hookes law holds true...blah blah blah...)

Sure, put two identical springs on end and the k value will be cut half, but realize this is because you doubled the number of active coils, not because of a length increase. Governing eq:

k= (Gd^4)/(8nD^3)
where
G= shear modulus
d=wire diameter
D= Mean coil diameter
n=number of active coils
c=speed of light

 

[ragin-sagin]

And for the other arguement in here....broke my Fly twice (first under unusual circumstances..read major f#$king impact), first time the frame was repaired no questions (after they actually had a look at the failure mode), second time (spring rubbing on frame) they replaced with brand new frame, sight unseen, and gave me some Foes stickers, extra bearing kit, and 2 hangers for my trouble. If thats the worst customer service in the industry...great.

 

[Ian Collins]

And for the other arguement in here....broke my Fly twice (first under unusual circumstances..read major f#$king impact), first time the frame was repaired no questions (after they actually had a look at the failure mode), second time (spring rubbing on frame) they replaced with brand new frame, sight unseen, and gave me some Foes stickers, extra bearing kit, and 2 hangers for my trouble. If thats the worst customer service in the industry...great.

I'm very happy to hear that....I'm always stoked to hear stories of improvement....it never used to be that way, but i'm glad it is now....

 

[OGRipper]

the orange is bar none the stiffest, snappiest bike I've ridden.....

I understand that it beats up the shock and creates some binding btwn the shock shaft and the shaft nut/seal.....but compare the weight of the curnutt/foes to the fox/orange.....i'm guessing there is at least a 3-4 lb difference......I'd rather save that weight and risk having to the replace the shock once or twice in the life of the bike

So is the Orange still the stiffest or are you saying you are willing to trade a bit of stiffness for light weight? I've ridden many multi-link bikes that feel stiffer than the Orange so your first comment was a head-scratcher.

 

[Ian Collins]

So is the Orange still the stiffest or are you saying you are willing to trade a bit of stiffness for light weight? I've ridden many multi-link bikes that feel stiffer than the Orange so your first comment was a head-scratcher.

still the stiffiest....I think it's weight and snap makes it feel stiffer than it may actually be...you can stuff it into corners and pop out really hard with very little flex....what bikes did you think were stiffer??...I must admit, I am nit picking here...the be one, the DHR, and the sunday are all super stiff....i'm just adding that the orange accomplishes even better stiffness through good triangulation of the parts, and large tubes in lieu of a linkage....I still take the link bikes any day due to suspension and pedalling, but the orange is damn impressive thats all

 

[OGRipper]

^^^Well, to name just two, the V10 and M3 both track better IMO. I've always been able to feel a little vagueness in the rear on even the burliest single pivots, especially on off-camber stuff, braking bumps, etc. I'm 200 lbs so that's probably part of it.

 

[ohio]

In spite of your strong technical based counter punch to my statement, you are still incorrect. Lets get back on topic of a lame tech discussion!

Sure:

Elastic range.

Your turn.

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

Im not gonna read all ten pages to see if its been mentioned yet, but Foes needs to get off the crack pipe when it comes to pricing thier frames. As nice as the new mono looks, the V10 is 800 dollars cheaper and the M3 is 400 dollars cheaper. Not to mention that these days you can get a pretty decent DH bike from Giant or IH for the same cost as the mono frameset. 3g for a frame is ridiculous, especially for a bike without any really new technology or innovations, no matter how well executed. That said, if the price was right I wouldn't hesitate to ride that frame.

 

[Ian Collins]

^^^Well, to name just two, the V10 and M3 both track better IMO. I've always been able to feel a little vagueness in the rear on even the burliest single pivots, especially on off-camber stuff, braking bumps, etc. I'm 200 lbs so that's probably part of it.

tracking and stiffness are two totally different things....

those bikes track better because of their suspension and they way they are set up.....my gripe with the orange is the suspension and how it tracks due to it.....the best tracking bike i've ridden is my own....DHR with avalanche....stiffness has to do with how wallowy and mushy it is when you really harp on it and slam in into turns, and make quick directional adjustments

 

[Jm_]

Im not gonna read all ten pages to see if its been mentioned yet, but Foes needs to get off the crack pipe when it comes to pricing thier frames. As nice as the new mono looks, the V10 is 800 dollars cheaper and the M3 is 400 dollars cheaper.

Good comparission. Two over-leveraged bikes with highly loaded bearings. So 2 years down the road when they are trash and the Foes is still going strong, what is your M3 or V10 going to be worth?

 

[Kntr]

tracking and stiffness are two totally different things....

those bikes track better because of their suspension and they way they are set up.....my gripe with the orange is the suspension and how it tracks due to it.....the best tracking bike i've ridden is my own....DHR with avalanche....stiffness has to do with how wallowy and mushy it is when you really harp on it and slam in into turns, and make quick directional adjustments

That has a lot to do with the Avalanche too. Ive noticed that my FLY tracks waaay better with the Avy than with the Romic and Curnutt. I have an Avy coming for my Big Hit that I will be able to compare to the Fox. I am willing wo bet it will track better with the Avy also.


I will know what Foes is going to do with my cracked FLY on Friday.

 

[seismic]

Ohhhh.....I smell Avy high jack of the thread...

 

[Kntr]

No high jacking just plain ol FACT..... IMO

back to the regular programing.