For all you guys that CANT lose your work how do you back up?

SkaredShtles · Jan 5, 2006

I keep all the important data in one directory on a separate drive & make backups of that directory to a third drive. Every now and again I'll burn the backup files to a DVD.

Use MS's backup app - it's actually not too bad.

Actually - if you *really* have 100GB of data you can't lose, you should get a tape drive.

stinkyboy · Jan 5, 2006

I do a DLT drive backup and keep the tapes in a fireproof safe.

I also burn DVD's of client folders from time to time for an additional backup.

Transcend · Jan 5, 2006

I burn DVDs on a regular schedule from both my mac and PC.

This is especially true for my photo work (which gets backed up pronto upon ingestion of cards following a job) and any important client web work. Upon completion of a web project, it gets burned to a cd/dvd, dated, client name put on it and filed away in one of a dozen folders.

Both machines are also scheduled to do nightly incremental backups of certain folders to a networked external drive. It works really well.

My PC runs a full spyware andf virus scan prior to the backup, my mac just backs up.

Ciaran · Jan 5, 2006

Simple, reliable and easily restored...

RAID level 1 (Mirroring)

Get a mobo that supports RAID (has it built in) or a RAID card.

Get two identical hard drives.

Once it's set up your PC will show the two drives to you as one drive. When you store something on the drive it automaticaly copies the data to both drives. Should one drive fail your data is still on the other drive. Insert new drive and the array rebuilds itself.

It's probably more expensive than some systems but it is super convenient and I know for sure that my data is backed up. Also since it's backed up on the fly I don't have to do any CD or DVD back ups. (It would be extremely rare to have two drives go bad at the exact same time.)

IMO if you are talking about gigs and gigs of data that is important a RAID system (any level except 0) is the only way to go. If you are at 100 gigs already the simple thing would be RAID 1 with two very very big HDD's. At that level and since it for your work you may consider a RAID 5 server solution. (Sadly setting up that kind of stuff is beyond my scope of knowledge) It's not too terribly hard to do. I have a friend with a set up like this in his house and has appx a terabyte of storage. :eek:

Tape drives are great for mission critical or legally required back ups but tapes are slow and require storage space. A tape drive and the tapes can be expensive too. Here at work we use tape back ups, but mainy because dumb users delete stuff then need it back.

Transcend · Jan 5, 2006

The problem with simple raid one is a simple power spike, and both drives are fried.

I keep my dvds offsite in a fire proof safe.

stinkyboy · Jan 5, 2006

Ciaran said:
Should one drive fail your data is still on the other drive. Insert new drive and the array rebuilds itself.

Should a fire start, you're burnt.

SkaredShtles · Jan 5, 2006

Ciaran said:
Simple, reliable and easily restored...

RAID level 1 (Mirroring)

Get a mobo that supports RAID (has it built in) or a RAID card.

Get two identical hard drives.

Once it's set up your PC will show the two drives to you as one drive. When you store something on the drive it automaticaly copies the data to both drives. Should one drive fail your data is still on the other drive. Insert new drive and the array rebuilds itself.

It's probably more expensive than some systems but it is super convenient and I know for sure that my data is backed up. Also since it's backed up on the fly I don't have to do any CD or DVD back ups. (It would be extremely rare to have two drives go bad at the exact same time.)

IMO if you are talking about gigs and gigs of data that is important a RAID system (any level except 0) is the only way to go.

RAID is good to protect from a failure. But it will *not* protect you from accidental destruction of data due to virus, user error, etc.

RAID is not a backup solution.

Tenchiro · Jan 5, 2006

No matter how you do it, keep the backup OFF SITE!

Although a DVD-RW is a simple and cheap way to do basic backups.

SkaredShtles · Jan 5, 2006

Tenchiro said:
No matter how you back, keep the backup OFF SITE!

Although a DVD-RW is a simple and cheap way to do basic backups.

Sweet! Backup copy of your post. :thumb:

Edit: Crap... you beat me to it.

sanjuro · Jan 5, 2006

1. A faster media would be helpful. I am not a PC expert, but DLT was the standard in the 90's and you should be able to get one for cheap.

2. A backup program is also helpful. That could help you run "incremental backups": For example, you backup all your data on Sunday (called a level 0 backup). Then Monday, you backup only the files which have changed since Sunday (level 1). So instead of 100gb, you might only backup 5gb, if that is all you worked on.

You can schedule level 1 backups the entire week, and then schedule another level 0 on Sunday so next week's level 1's start from the current Sunday.

H8R · Jan 5, 2006

SkaredShtles said:
RAID is not a backup solution.

It's more of a speed/redundancy thing, born from servers.

If one drive fails, there is still redundancy to keep the server serving files.

Back up to DVD's is a good idea, or this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822144413

Make sure you have a kick-ass surge supressor.

SkaredShtles · Jan 5, 2006

manhattanprjkt83 said:
Yeah there is something reassuring about having a hard DVD copy

Reassuring? It's a *requirement* if your data is really irreplacable.

Not a DVD necessarily, but a CD, DVD, tape, whatever. Actually - it's better to make *two* copies in case one of the backups fails for some reason.

SkaredShtles · Jan 5, 2006

H8R said:
It's more of a speed/redundancy thing, born from servers.

If one drive fails, there is still redundancy to keep the server serving files.

Yes. RAID is great for high availability. But user deletes all his data accidentally, both drives will be equally empty of said data.

Backups are essential unless you truly don't care about your data.

Ciaran · Jan 5, 2006

This is assuming you know how to use a PC.

Power spike eh? Well do you have your PC plugged directly into the wall? Get a very good surge protector.

User error? Nothing can save you from yourself, except yourself.

Virus? I have had a total of 2 viruses in my entire computing life.

Still effed if there's a fire though.

I will think about another layer of back ups though. I would hate to lose my stuff forever when a day of DVD burning and storing in a safe deposit box or fire proof safe will prevent it.

And don't forget about data RECOVERY. Have a data recovery program handy in case you accidentally delete something before you've made a permanent back up. I have programs that can recover files from HDDs after multiple formattings.

SkaredShtles said:
Actually - it's better to make *two* copies in case one of the backups fails for some reason.

Excellent, excellent advice.

Transcend · Jan 5, 2006

ciaran - a hard dvd backup can indeed save you from yourself. Opps i deleted one file, both mirrors are now gone. Oh well, off to the dvd backup I go! This is a weekley occurance for me. Especially working in photoshop, changing the color profile, and saving - thus losing my nicely arranged 70 layer web projects.

I had 2 HDDs and a mobo blow when my PSU spiked and died...no surge supressor woudl have helped in that situation.

man - On my pc I use xxcopy i think it is called, its a terminal program that takes about a decade to figure out, but is mega powerful. On my mac I am trying different solutions. Backup 3 right now.

They use last edited date + file size to determine if a file has been edited. It ONLY updates changed files. Usually it is only a 40 sec backup procedure - on a busy day, or after a photo job it can take an hour.

Transcend · Jan 5, 2006

manhattanprjkt83 said:
Really? Mind sharing what programs these are?

If you do a long format and write zeros, nothing can recover it anyways - not even fancy pants data recovery services. A few minutes backing up is worth way way more then 20 hours of data recovery utilities, or shipping it off to a service and paying a huge fee. And if a platter shatters...nothing is saving you.

Also, I forgot to add, i am anal retentive and also have nightly online ftp backups of my most crucial files. Yes, I am that klutzy.

click. drag. delete. OH **** I needed that.

sanjuro · Jan 5, 2006

SkaredShtles said:
Yes. RAID is great for high availability. But user deletes all his data accidentally, both drives will be equally empty of said data.

Backups are essential unless you truly don't care about your data.

RAID was not really designed for high availability, but to utilize smaller cheaper disks more efficiently.

While disk capacities have become enormous, the same principal apply.

Tenchiro · Jan 5, 2006

SkaredShtles said:
Sweet! Backup copy of your post.

Edit: Crap... you beat me to it.

I moved it off-site. :cool:

SkaredShtles · Jan 5, 2006

manhattanprjkt83 said:
So how do you increment the backups, you arent backing up every file all the time right? Just files that are new since the previous back up correct? How are you differentiating? Last file edit date?

Use the MS backup program. It will do the differentiation for you.

SkaredShtles · Jan 5, 2006

Ciaran said:
<snip>
User error? Nothing can save you from yourself, except yourself.

A backup can............

Still effed if there's a fire though.

Nope. Copy of backup data should be over at a friend's house.

binary visions · Jan 5, 2006

I have to agree with the others here, RAID is a lousy backup solution. It's good protection against a drive crash, and nothing else. Virus, accidental deletion, malicious deletion, software-caused data corruption... There are a lot of things to protect against, and your mirrored raid will only mirror the problems.

It is, however, a great thing to have as a backup for a drive crash, as it saves a ton of time to just be able to plug a new drive in and keep working.

Off-site DVDs or tapes are the only sure way to backup irreplacable data.

biggins · Jan 5, 2006

i just sort my images then burn the ones i will eventually find usefull onto a CD. i keep the cd's at an off site location in case my house or something catches on fire. i have lost up to 500 photos before that were not backed up and let me tell ya it aint fun.

stinkyboy · Jan 5, 2006

biggins said:
i just sort my images then burn the ones i will eventually find usefull onto a CD. i keep the cd's at an off site location in case my house or something catches on fire. i have lost up to 500 photos before that were not backed up and let me tell ya it aint fun.

What percentage of your porn collection was that?

Transcend · Jan 5, 2006

I recommend dantz retrospect btw for anyone that is needing a fairly simple app. It is pretty effective, not too pricey and has been around a LONG time. It does both mac and pc.

SkaredShtles · Jan 5, 2006

sanjuro said:
RAID was not really designed for high availability, but to utilize smaller cheaper disks more efficiently.

Technically you are correct, but can you think of *anyone* who does RAID-0 anywhere any more? I can't. Someone probably does, I suppose. So in practice, RAID is a high availability tool.

splat · Jan 5, 2006

SkaredShtles said:
Technically you are correct, but can you think of *anyone* who does RAID-0 anywhere any more? I can't. Someone probably does, I suppose. So in practice, RAID is a high availability tool.

I use Raid 0 all the time , then I mirror it. Better know was Raid 0-1 or Raid 1 -0, depending if you stripe first them Mirror or mirror then stripe. and raid 0 - 1 is very very common in the IBM's ( rational) Clearcase enviroment.

The issue I see with Backups to DVD/CD , life span ? ( I know I do it that way for my Photos.) I too lost about 200 24 Hrs of adrenilin photos from this summer when my Laptop was ripped off.

Now Tape. Current technology would be LT0-2 or LTO-3 , SDLT or AIT-4 all Big Dollars

I would look for an Older DLT-4 drive , if you go the tape route. I just got an DLT-4 in a 7 slot ADIC library I am going to attach to my Main Linux Server.

thing to remeber is when you start looking at tape, its the capacity , Speed , and Cost of tapes. also What software supports them. MS backup has limitations, MUltiple tapes , robots , etc. So if you go Comercial you are talking CA's Bright stor , Veritas Netbackup, Legato's Networker , Veritas Backup exec. ( personally I think Veritas Netbackup is the Best.)

another thing that you might want to think about if you are afraid of your own human error , would be a version control system. ( and I don't mean the recycle bin)

binary visions · Jan 6, 2006

SkaredShtles said:
Technically you are correct, but can you think of *anyone* who does RAID-0 anywhere any more? I can't. Someone probably does, I suppose. So in practice, RAID is a high availability tool.

Actually, RAID 0 is used quite often since it offers a performance boost. A lot of people like to use those Raptor 10,000rpm drives in pairs as RAID 0 since it offers nearly-SCSI performance for a fraction of the price.

Frankly, I wouldn't even dream of running RAID 0 - nothing like significantly increasing your chances of losing all of your data.

hooples3 · Jan 6, 2006

I basically use a 200gb external harddrive that can be set up to automatically back up what ever you want on a daily or weekly basis. or whenever you want with a touch of a button

SkaredShtles · Jan 6, 2006

splat said:
I use Raid 0 all the time , then I mirror it. Better know was Raid 0-1 or Raid 1 -0, depending if you stripe first them Mirror or mirror then stripe. and raid 0 - 1 is very very common in the IBM's ( rational) Clearcase enviroment.

Yes - that is a very common application of RAID level. But it's not RAID-0. You've basically employed a completely different RAID level.

Heck - RAID 0 wasn't even included in the original paper: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~garth/RAIDpaper/Patterson88.pdf

So yes, mirrored-stripes, striped mirrors, etc. etc. are all valuable configurations in use today. But does anyone still use RAID 0?

SkaredShtles · Jan 6, 2006

binary visions said:
Actually, RAID 0 is used quite often since it offers a performance boost. A lot of people like to use those Raptor 10,000rpm drives in pairs as RAID 0 since it offers nearly-SCSI performance for a fraction of the price.

People *really* do this? :eek:

I guess in a personal setting this might not be a terrible idea.* But professionally, you're asking for a sacking if you employ this.

Frankly, I wouldn't even dream of running RAID 0 - nothing like significantly increasing your chances of losing all of your data.

*I take it back, it's a terrible idea.

splat · Jan 6, 2006

SkaredShtles said:
Yes - that is a very common application of RAID level. But it's not RAID-0. You've basically employed a completely different RAID level.

Heck - RAID 0 wasn't even included in the original paper: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~garth/RAIDpaper/Patterson88.pdf

So yes, mirrored-stripes, striped mirrors, etc. etc. are all valuable configurations in use today. But does anyone still use RAID 0?

It is still raid 0 , ON the Drave array IT was set up as HArdware raid 0 ( which I really hated ) and then Mirrored. and to show how F'ed up Clear case could be. to back it up the database had to be in down state ( no one could use it ). so we would close the database , then break the mirrors. then open one half of the mirror ( RAID 0 ) for use , then mount the other mirror on the backup machine and back it up , and when done, we would re-sync the mirrors , just to do it all over again the next day. that enviroment scared the living crap out of me , plus it has made for some very very long days . ( and IBM Rational Tech support would NOT support anything other than raid 0 or 1 )

so basically for half the day all our developers were storing there code on a raid 0 device. gave me the warm and fuzzies.

binary visions · Jan 6, 2006

SkaredShtles said:
*I take it back, it's a terrible idea.

If I had a lot of money, I'd probably do it - dual 10k RPM drives on RAID 0, just for kicks, since it'd be a nice speed boost. But all I'd put on it would be the OS and my installed programs - I'd never keep data there.

splat · Jan 6, 2006

Actually , My Storage Tek San has "blades" that are 5 SATA 250 GB drives that are RAid 0 then I took 10 of those and Made them 2 Raid 5 sets. woohoo 10 TB of screaming disk . and right now one of those blades failed yesterday , and the machine it is running on has barely slowed down. Have a new one coming in today.

SkaredShtles · Jan 6, 2006

splat said:
It is still raid 0 , ON the Drave array IT was set up as HArdware raid 0 ( which I really hated ) and then Mirrored. and to show how F'ed up Clear case could be. to back it up the database had to be in down state ( no one could use it ). so we would close the database , then break the mirrors. then open one half of the mirror ( RAID 0 ) for use , then mount the other mirror on the backup machine and back it up , and when done, we would re-sync the mirrors , just to do it all over again the next day. that enviroment scared the living crap out of me , plus it has made for some very very long days . ( and IBM Rational Tech support would NOT support anything other than raid 0 or 1 )

so basically for half the day all our developers were storing there code on a raid 0 device. gave me the warm and fuzzies.

Jeezus, dude. Here's the bottom line:

Nobody in their right mind uses RAID 0 anymore in a professional environment.

I'd refuse to support an arrangement like that. What a mess. :think:

For all you guys that CANT lose your work how do you back up?

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