[koffee]

O.K. so you kool name with the product and image to stand behind it. So when will we see an Evil Snowboard? I can't be the first to ask!

 

[dw]

I am big into snowboarding personally, thrown around the idea for that and a few other things in the past, just too many things going on right now to get into that. Maybe someday though!

dw

 

[koffee]

I'll just have to stick with burton until then.

 

[dw]

not a bad choice in my book!

 

[chillindrdude]

can i run 7" forks on the 2005 IH sundays? i was told i need some sort of cup spacer for any forks under 8" travel...

 

[dw]

yes you can run 7" fork on the Sunday. Head angle will be 66 degrees. Who told you that you need a spacer?? Tell that person that there is no need and never has been a need or a plan for a spacer of any kind. I rode my Sunday for 6 months this spring/summer with a 7 inch fork.

Dave

 

[jackalope]

^^
OK, since this thread has been officially hijacked into a Sunday Q & A, what exactly is the rear suspension on a Sunday? If I'm looking at it right, it's a rear triangle engaged to the front triangle via two linkages...The top one activates the shock and the bottom let's the rear tri go up and down, no? So I'm trying to put in a catagory, like say a 4 bar, but I just can't figure it out...It sorta looks like a horst type design with a pivot on the chain stay (which I know, doesn't necessarily make it a Horst), but I am also trying to figure out what kind of rear axel path it would have...In otherwords, does it have a standard arc path like single pivot / faux bar or does it have some straight line vertical type movement usually associated with a Horst? Damn, that was poorly worded, but it's the best I can do in short order...JM would prolly crucify me if he read that

 

[binary visions]

You should do a search. This has been discussed in detail several times, but DW won't say too much while his patents are still pending.

And incidentally, Horst links don't have even close to a verticle axle path, despite what Specialized would have you believe.

 

[jackalope]

^^
Am familiar with the search function, just wanted to hear it from the proverbial horse's pie hole...

But interesting statement about the Horst link...I wouldn't be surprised at all if you're right, given the nature of the hype machine that is the mountain bike industry...I will do a search on that topic, fo'sure...

 

[CBJ]

yes you can run 7" fork on the Sunday. Head angle will be 66 degrees. Who told you that you need a spacer?? Tell that person that there is no need and never has been a need or a plan for a spacer of any kind. I rode my Sunday for 6 months this spring/summer with a 7 inch fork.

Dave

Then that person will tell to the other person who told that person about the need for different buttom cups that there is no need

 

[heikkihall]

^^
OK, since this thread has been officially hijacked into a Sunday Q & A, what exactly is the rear suspension on a Sunday? If I'm looking at it right, it's a rear triangle engaged to the front triangle via two linkages...The top one activates the shock and the bottom let's the rear tri go up and down, no? So I'm trying to put in a catagory, like say a 4 bar, but I just can't figure it out...It sorta looks like a horst type design with a pivot on the chain stay (which I know, doesn't necessarily make it a Horst), but I am also trying to figure out what kind of rear axel path it would have...In otherwords, does it have a standard arc path like single pivot / faux bar or does it have some straight line vertical type movement usually associated with a Horst? Damn, that was poorly worded, but it's the best I can do in short order...JM would prolly crucify me if he read that

http://www.dw-link.com/

 

[jackalope]

^^
Gracias...Looked for something like that on the IH site, but they were kinda skimpy on good info...

Seems like it kinda works like a VPP design, but I'm sure there are many discreet differences...Much reading to do now...With that, I'll quit beating this expired equine carcas...

 

[chillindrdude]

thanks dave...

one more question...what do you think about running a sherman breakout plus on a sunday?

 

[ska todd]

The Sunday frame will work fine w/ a 7" fork. The axle-to-crown of a 7" 888 is approx the same as an 8" Boxxer. If you use a 7" Boxxer you will steepen the HTA some and drop the BB a little. You can easily counter this difference w/ a standard lower cup headset if you really wanted but it is not necessary. I simply ran my 7" Boxxer all the way up in the crowns and geometry was fine.

one more question...what do you think about running a sherman breakout plus on a sunday?

Just ask Sanjay...Mt Snow NCS Semi Pro 1st place...Sunday w/ Sherman Breakout +

-ska todd

 

[James | Go-Ride]

Dave,
Will the e-13 DRS be compatible with the Sunday? In trans-beer? With a Shermer Boxman up front?

 

[Kornphlake]

while we're at it, why is the frame named sunday? I'd have thought saturday was a better name, or something like memorial day or maybe spring break, but any name with the word break doesn't market well. Suprisingly the chevy Nova didn't sell well in latin american countries, of course with a name that literally translates to no go why would anybody want it.

 

[binary visions]

while we're at it, why is the frame named sunday? I'd have thought saturday was a better name, or something like memorial day or maybe spring break, but any name with the word break doesn't market well. Suprisingly the chevy Nova didn't sell well in latin american countries, of course with a name that literally translates to no go why would anybody want it.

He had a description of this before.. It's 'cause on race weekends, the pro races are usually on Sunday.

 

[Kornphlake]

probablly on NSMB I don't get that one at work.

 

[binary visions]

probablly on NSMB I don't get that one at work.

Nah, I don't read NSMB - it was on here. But anyway, yeah, that was the reason given

 

[wirly]

What is the most recent time frame given for the new IH DW-link bikes and frames hitting stores? The only info I could dig up was Ska Todd saying fall/winter; any chance they will drop in December or are they scheduled for early next year?
I'm looking forward to doing the all informative parking lot test...and then probably buying one anyways.

 

[punkassean]

...Horst links don't have even close to a verticle axle path, despite what Specialized would have you believe.

ummm...

Granted this is a 90mm travel Epic but even a Demo shouldn't be too far from vertical.

 

[binary visions]

ummm...

That doesn't mean the wheelpath is vertical. All it proves (and I don't know where those drawings came from or how accurate they are) is that the rear axle is approximately the same distance from an imaginary vertical line at the beginning and end of the travel.

You could take two points around a circle and draw a vertical line between them.

Horst link bikes have approximately the same axle path as low, rearward single pivots such as the Kona Stinky or Turner DHR.

 

[punkassean]

Whether the line is "imaginary"* or not, it is true vertical. it is safe to assume that the wheelpath will pretty much draw a diagonal line from the start point to the end point (ie: it will not deviate dramatically from pt. A to pt. B) since there is no VPP type linkage. I think the design is better than you think it is and it's simple to boot. That pic is scanned straight out of the dealer book.

*imaginary meaning drawn in accurately, of course there is no physical line.

 

[binary visions]

it is safe to assume that the wheelpath will pretty much draw a diagonal line from the start point to the end point (ie: it will not deviate dramatically from pt. A to pt. B) since there is no VPP type linkage.

Huh? I don't understand that. Why would you assume a "diagonal" (i.e. straight) line?

The wheelpath is going to be circular. Simply because you can take two points out of the wheelpath and draw a straight, vertical line through them, doesn't make it straight, nor should it make you assume that it is.

 

[spookydave]

while we're at it, why is the frame named sunday? I'd have thought saturday was a better name, or something like memorial day or maybe spring break, but any name with the word break doesn't market well. Suprisingly the chevy Nova didn't sell well in latin american countries, of course with a name that literally translates to no go why would anybody want it.

I think it's a fantastic name. Ever see the movie "One Any sunday"? One of my favs for sure.
The motto in motorsports has been "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" for a long time.

 

[punkassean]

Right, but the amount of arc to the path is very minimal, thus I said "pretty much". As opposed to a VPP where the path can be a pronounced S shape.

If the axle only moves a few mm forward by the end of the path, then I don't see where along the way it would move so drastically to cause negative handling characteristics.

Does that read more clearly?

 

[leprechaun]

Even though the lines are nearly vertical it still shortens up a little which could be a lot more than it looks like since the drawing is so small.On a 80-90 mm travel bike the FSR design works pretty well,but i really doubt a Demo has even close to a vertical path,but i have not plotted it.
Horst link bikes that are 'instant center' like the Ellsworth,Turner,Azonic Saber,etc work SO MUCH better than FSR type ones do in achieving a vertical axle path.
I still can't figure out why Sp doesn't use a flatter upper link.Maybe they don't want to pay Ellsworth(like Turner now has to do).Well then again the Demo is pretty flat,but the upper and lower arms are close together like a Yeti DH 9,which has a very foreward path.
The DW is overall pretty vertical and rides that way too.

Anyone plotted a Demo?

 

[punkassean]

Even though the lines are nearly vertical it still shortens up a little which could be a lot more than it looks like since the drawing is so small.On a 80-90 mm travel bike the FSR design works pretty well,but i really doubt a Demo has even close to a vertical path,but i have not plotted it.
Horst link bikes that are 'instant center' like the Ellsworth,Turner,Azonic Saber,etc work SO MUCH better than FSR type ones do in achieving a vertical axle path.
I still can't figure out why Sp doesn't use a flatter upper link.Maybe they don't want to pay Ellsworth(like Turner now has to do).Well then again the Demo is pretty flat,but the upper and lower arms are close together like a Yeti DH 9,which has a very foreward path.
The DW is overall pretty vertical and rides that way too.

Anyone plotted a Demo?

Ellsworth tries to make all of the bikes 4 bars as close to the same length as possible I think.

If the Epic only comes forward ~7-9mm (judging by the diameter of the dropout slot) and has 90mm of travel, would it be safe to assume that the Demo9 might only move a little over twice that? Say ~20mm maybe 22mm. Or it's possible that with the longer, flatter link the Demo only moves ~15mm? Either way, I've ridden the Demo's and a ton of other Specialized bikes and they perform very well. The Demo swallows bumps.

I'm just saying that the bikes work very well and aren't over complicated.

 

[oly]

Call this the ADD thread:

Topics covered:
Snowboards by evil
Fork Length and spacers on the sunday
Suspensiopn design of the sunday
Horst link misconceptions and specialized marketing
VPP comparisons
Another Sunday fork Q
Name conventions of the sunday
Delivery of the sunday q's
More horst link........

 

[oly]

As opposed to a VPP where the path can be a pronounced S shape.

I mapped out the new V10 and couldnt get the "S" curve to show, unless i hyper extrended the suspension from the uncompressed state. I was under the impression VPP was all about the S path, but all i could tell it was just a modified arc much like some other design out there (with a website). It seems SC has dropped the "S" part off the marketing story? But thats off topic since this is a thread about evil snowboards.......

 

[leprechaun]

20mm of foreward wheelpath movement is A TON!

Funny,the V10 we mapped had no s shape to it either!

OK i'm going snowboarding

 

[jncarpenter]

Maybe they don't want to pay Ellsworth (like Turner now has to do).

....not sure where you pulled this idea from....last I talked to DT, the only licensing he pays is to Specialized for the Horst/ FSR.

 

[syadasti]

....not sure where you pulled this idea from....last I talked to DT, the only licensing he pays is to Specialized for the Horst/ FSR.

Ellsworth was granted a patent recently. The way its phrased I thought it meant specialized no long owns the horst link

 

[punkassean]

20mm of foreward wheelpath movement is A TON!

Funny,the V10 we mapped had no s shape to it either!

OK i'm going snowboarding

20mm is a # I completely e-speculated...

Have fun out there!

 

[OGRipper]

On the Demo, I rarely check out MTBR these days but wandered over there today and found this

I sure can't vouch for the validity of the axle-path plotting in there. I'm no engineer but it looks like someone went a little crazy with the spiralgraph.

 

[ohio]

Whether the line is "imaginary"* or not, it is true vertical. it is safe to assume that the wheelpath will pretty much draw a diagonal line from the start point to the end point (ie: it will not deviate dramatically from pt. A to pt. B) since there is no VPP type linkage. I think the design is better than you think it is and it's simple to boot. That pic is scanned straight out of the dealer book.

*imaginary meaning drawn in accurately, of course there is no physical line.

Jesus **** no.

Imagine your right arm is a swingarm. Face a wall from 2 feet away. Raise your arm until it hits the wall (this is the beginning of the travel in that Epic pic). Now raise your arm over your head and drop it forward until it hits the wall (this is the end of the travel in the Epic Pic). Those two points are vertically aligned, like the Eipc pic. Are you trying to tell me that when you swing your arm in a circle it travels in a vertical line?


Wrongwrongwrongwrongwrong
Wrong.

The FSR is actually less of a straight line than pretty much ANY single pivot. Not that a straight line is in any way useful for a bike suspension design.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

Well, a curved line IS the shortest distance between two points on a curved surface, like the surface of the earth, so circular is actually straight when applied to swingarm movement.

Harvard, here I come, Professor Emeritus of Bicycle Message Board Relativity.

 

[binary visions]

Either way, I've ridden the Demo's and a ton of other Specialized bikes and they perform very well. The Demo swallows bumps.

I'm just saying that the bikes work very well and aren't over complicated.

I'm not arguing the functionality of the bike, I'm simply telling you that the claims of a verticle axle path are not even close to true. The axle path is close to that of a low, rearward single pivot. Period.

The Demo9 is a cool bike, no doubt - they managed to make it functional and beautiful (if a little heavy); I'm just cleaning up after Specialized's marketing department. Their bikes work well, but not for the reason they claim.

 

[oly]

Ok, since this is a derailled thread.....

So whats the sunday supposed to do when you slam on the rear brake? Im checking out a bike that has a tendancy to RISE when you apply the rear brake. the debate is if this is a good trait or not... Will it be felt on the trail, is what we felt on pavement going to go away once on the rough? I thought i had read the sunday had a Squating tendancy.. like the canfields do.... to hold you down rather than buck you off. (i read so much here i forget whats said where) On this bike it was felt like the HT was very steep, but in fact it has a 66.5 HT angle. The feeling was to go OTB down something steep. I feel in my limited knowledge this is from braking front and rear, rear comes up aka STINKBUG, fork goes down...(yea, all forks dive when the brake is applied, but this is amplified by the rear end rising...) BTW, this bike is lawwill-ish without a floater... could this be a cause of the rise? Im going to trail ride the bike sunday and sort of have been wanting to hold off posting, but am curious to see what the all knowing e-speculators think....

 

[HTFR]

^^
OK, since this thread has been officially hijacked into a Sunday Q & A, what exactly is the rear suspension on a Sunday? If I'm looking at it right, it's a rear triangle engaged to the front triangle via two linkages...The top one activates the shock and the bottom let's the rear tri go up and down, no? So I'm trying to put in a catagory, like say a 4 bar, but I just can't figure it out...It sorta looks like a horst type design with a pivot on the chain stay (which I know, doesn't necessarily make it a Horst), but I am also trying to figure out what kind of rear axel path it would have...In otherwords, does it have a standard arc path like single pivot / faux bar or does it have some straight line vertical type movement usually associated with a Horst? Damn, that was poorly worded, but it's the best I can do in short order...JM would prolly crucify me if he read that

parralel link like the 2step or karple.